People who ninja for their companions

[Eldren]

I'm not going to bother responding to most of these posts, especially Eldren's hilarious rebuttal.

 

This immediately invalidates your whole argument. You're "not going to bother", which is another way in a debate of saying "I can't refute the opposition." So if you want to remove yourself from the discussion, that's just fine.

 

The primary argument I see from the crowd who so vehemently disagrees with people rolling Need for companion upgrades boils down to this: "Player characters have a higher priority than player companions." No one can stop them from holding this view. The issue arises because those people want that view to be accepted as an absolute by the rest of their community, they see they have people who agree with them, they conclude the view is held by the "rest of the community", then they get upset when they find someone who doesn't share the view. They attempt to reason away behavior they consider aberrant with an argument founded on their particular view, missing that the whole reason this behavior is occurring in the first place is because their view is not held as absolute.

 

Conversely, you have the crowd of people who are fine with rolling Need for companions, and their arguments are most often sourced in the belief that everyone who participated in killing a boss has an equal right to stake a claim to that boss' loot. This is the actual reality supported by the current iteration of this game, so all moralizing aside, these people are basing their argument on an actual absolute. They can point to a condition in the game that everyone experiences regardless of personal preference to the contrary.

 

In short, one side (the anti-companion crowd) is attempting to appeal to how things "should be", while the other side (the pro-companion crowd) is succeeding in appealing to how things actually are.

 

Dissatisfied with how things are, the anti-companion crowd attempts to apply social pressure in an attempt to bring about their desired paradigm via social contract in the hopes they can outlast their opposition until the actual only true authority in this game, BioWare, sees things their way and implements systems to make their way official. At that point they can appeal to an objective reality, and pat themselves on the back that "this is how it should have been all along." We have no way of knowing, however, if BioWare is ever going to see things this way, and until they specifically say they're changing how loot is distributed in relation to companions, the current paradigm remains: all the participants in group content have an equal right to loot that drops, aren't required to give their reasons for the choices they make, and if any variables exist in distribution (second-tier priority roll, passing, etc.), they exist because of player choice, and not system mandate.

 

We even have people attempting to appeal to social pressure as a deterrent for behavior they personally find undesirable (rolling for companion upgrades), and we now have people who are actually posting that in their personal experience that threat of social pressure is invalid! The typical response, I've noticed, is "Well, you wouldn't make it into one of my groups." It's a non-issue at that point, unless you know for certain that one of the people disagreeing with you is on your realm, part of your faction, and operating in the same level bracket you are. It doesn't invalidate your overall argument in that case, it merely invalidates the weight of that particular statement.

 

At the end of everything, one reality remains: none of us have the ability in the game to reliably determine what someone else does with a piece of gear they win via impartial roll, nor do we have the ability to reliably stop them from choosing the highest priority roll possible. As a result, regardless of moralist arguments of what "should" happen, regardless of threats of social exile that carry varying degrees of actual probability, we are left with this: if someone wants to roll Need and intends to equip a companion with what they win, nothing can stop them.

 

No one can appeal to a "majority", because they don't have access to actual objective statistics to shore up that argument. No one can say "most", at best they can say "many", a nebulous and inexact term that's useless when attempting to defend against a position that can point to actual facts. People can attempt to guilt others into believing as they do, but history has adequately shown that guilt is not a reliable motivator for long-term behavioral change. At best you get an "at-that-moment" change while the person attempts to figure out a way to return to a paradigm they consider more optimal for their personal goals. Put in a vulgar fashion, they capitulate in that moment "just to shut you up". Once you're gone, they're back to doing things the way they want.

 

It is what it is. If BioWare changes it, we'll deal with it. But until they do, you're going to have to be content with disagreeing and hoping you can bring enough social pressure to bear on your server to change the behavior.

 

Many posts here seem to indicate it isn't very likely, however.

[Grendelwolf]

The only way to fix this issue is to have a companion loot option when rolling. If your character can't use it you can't roll need on it, but you can roll for companion item.

 

Companion loot option would have a higher priority over greed and RE, but not as high as a Need roll. So, if no one needs the item you roll companion need, you automatically win.

 

Now if neither you or your companion can use that item, you don't have the companion roll option for that item, all you can do is roll greed.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Grendelwolf

[profaneascension]

Why doesn't it benefit the guild overall? The healer earned his or her DKP. Just like the tanks. They spent the time. They wiped just as often as the rest of the guild. They earned their points. And if they were able to outbid the tanks on a tanking item, that means the tanks were already gearing themselves up on the journey to that boss and did not have enough DKP to outbid the healer.

 

I have given you reasons why it's more beneficial and preferable already, but here it is again. A better geared tank makes the healer's job easier, which in turn makes everyone else's job easier. The faster everyone gets upgraded, the faster the guild can put that raid on farm status, and the faster the farm, the sooner everyone gets what they want.

 

Just because you spent time in a raid doesn't automatically mean you are entitled to any particular item that drops. If someone else in the raid needs the upgrade more, they should have the right to decline it before everyone else gets to spend points on it.

 

If your tanks are spending their DKP on other items, and you feel your DKP is best spent on the item that just dropped, how are you stunting the guild's progression?

 

So you're telling me that you don't see how giving the item to someone who can't use it in the raid, thereby resulting in the failure to a) increase the survivability of the tank, b) increase the damage output of the DPS, or c) increasing the healing output of the healers, stunts the guild's progression? Are you really telling me that it doesn't stunt guild progression at all if the healer takes a +defense item from a tank, which would have made both their jobs easier, just because he felt like bidding on it?

 

Maybe the tank lowbid because it's a tank item, but they'd rather have a weapon upgrade that didn't drop? Maybe the tank can't outbid you because yesterday they got a chest upgrade so now you have more DKP than they do. It's your DKP that you earned raiding in your guild.

 

This scenario should not occur because a tank shouldn't have to bid against a healer on a tanking item, and a DPS should not be bidding on a healing item, and so on. They should only have to bid against someone else in the same role; once everyone in that role has obtained the upgrade, then the rest of the raid can bid whatever they please on the item.

 

I'm not deflecting anything. I think your argument is oversimplified and tends to ignore the nitty gritty of where loot drama comes from. It doesn't apply very well to this thread's original post and really doesn't apply well to guild loot distribution systems in practice in this MMO or others.

 

You approach it with this general idea that everyone wants to improve the guild's progression by putting the right items into the right people's characters each time out. But the game doesn't work like that.

 

The only reason a system like that would fail is people who operate with an over-inflated sense of entitlement. You raid because you want to progress further in the raid and see more content, not because it benefits you in solo runs. No one's companion needs raiding gear because raids do not involve companions whatsoever. Would it be nice to have raiding gear on your companion? Sure, but that desire does not, and should not trump the needs of the raid.

 

Loot drama happens for two reasons: when bad raid leaders don't lay the rules out properly, and when selfish people start to want things they don't deserve.

 

You can go on a run through a series of encounters and watch something like this happen:

 

- Boss 1: Tank item drops. Tank wins it, spends DKP.

- Boss 2: Weapon Upgrade drops. Tank wins it, spends DKP.

- Boss 3: Tank item drops. Tank tries to bid on it. Doesn't have enough DKP. Healer wins it with a low bid, puts it on healer's companion. Tank flips out. Because tank feels tank deserved the item.

 

And that is a result of a poor implementation of the DKP system by the guild. If you don't let someone bid on an item that isn't suited for them in the first place, then what happens on Boss 2 wouldn't take place. What kind of a weapon was it? Did it have defensive stats on it? If not, why was the tank allowed to bid on it? The same applies to every other class. Don't let people bid on gear that do not have the stats they need, until the classes that can use the item don't need it anymore.

 

Losing out on an item because you didn't have enough DKP should happen only because someone else of the same class in the raid had more DKP than you, not because someone off-spec can afford to spend more DKP. You're telling me that guild drama occurs as a result of the way you interpret DKP. I'm telling you that there shouldn't be any guild drama if everyone abides by my interpretation of DKP, which should be clearly laid out beforehand.

 

Giving that tank the third item may or may not help the guild progress.

 

Giving the item to the healer would definitely not help the guild progress. I'll take my chances upgrading the tank.

 

And that doesn't even get into the situation where a guild has something on farm mode. So you've got easy content your guild is clearing and you've got guild vets gearing up companions against guild noobs who aren't geared up yet.

 

The problem here lies with the guild vets. The point of recruiting new members is to replace those that you will lose or have lost. If the vets would rather see their companions geared up than having a newer guild member be ready to take the place of someone who quits, then they don't deserve to make progress.

 

DKP equalizes the playing field. You put your time in you get your gear. But there are a lot of situations where people simply get something because they have more DKP than you and that ticks you off.

 

Again, my interpretation of the DKP system eliminates that possibility. Chances are, something you need will eventually drop, and everyone works toward increasing those chances by repetition. If you don't gear your mains up in the first place, then you won't even have the chance to get that item to drop at all.

 

You keep reiterating that guild drama is a reality and "part of the game." You're telling me that my system doesn't work, but the examples you provide are derived from your own broken interpretation of DKP. Now I'm pointing out to you exactly why your interpretation is causing it. Lay the rules out properly, and no one will have any excuse to cause drama.

Edited January 14, 2012 by profaneascension

[SnoggyMack]

I have given you reasons why it's more beneficial and preferable already, but here it is again. A better geared tank makes the healer's job easier, which in turn makes everyone else's job easier. The faster everyone gets upgraded, the faster the guild can put that raid on farm status, and the faster the farm, the sooner everyone gets what they want.

 

Just because you spent time in a raid doesn't automatically mean you are entitled to any particular item that drops. If someone else in the raid needs the upgrade more, they should have the right to decline it before everyone else gets to spend points on it.

 

 

 

So you're telling me that you don't see how giving the item to someone who can't use it in the raid, thereby resulting in the failure to a) increase the survivability of the tank, b) increase the damage output of the DPS, or c) increasing the healing output of the healers, stunts the guild's progression? Are you really telling me that it doesn't stunt guild progression at all if the healer takes a +defense item from a tank, which would have made both their jobs easier, just because he felt like bidding on it?

 

 

 

This scenario should not occur because a tank shouldn't have to bid against a healer on a tanking item, and a DPS should not be bidding on a healing item, and so on. They should only have to bid against someone else in the same role; once everyone in that role has obtained the upgrade, then the rest of the raid can bid whatever they please on the item.

 

 

 

The only reason a system like that would fail is people who operate with an over-inflated sense of entitlement. You raid because you want to progress further in the raid and see more content, not because it benefits you in solo runs. No one's companion needs raiding gear because raids do not involve companions whatsoever. Would it be nice to have raiding gear on your companion? Sure, but that desire does not, and should not trump the needs of the raid.

 

Loot drama happens for two reasons: when bad raid leaders don't lay the rules out properly, and when selfish people start to want things they don't deserve.

 

 

 

And that is a result of a poor implementation of the DKP system by the guild. If you don't let someone bid on an item that isn't suited for them in the first place, then what happens on Boss 2 wouldn't take place. What kind of a weapon was it? Did it have defensive stats on it? If not, why was the tank allowed to bid on it? The same applies to every other class. Don't let people bid on gear that do not have the stats they need, until the classes that can use the item don't need it anymore.

 

Losing out on an item because you didn't have enough DKP should happen only because someone else of the same class in the raid had more DKP than you, not because someone off-spec can afford to spend more DKP. You're telling me that guild drama occurs as a result of the way you interpret DKP. I'm telling you that there shouldn't be any guild drama if everyone abides by my interpretation of DKP, which should be clearly laid out beforehand.

 

 

 

Giving the item to the healer would definitely not help the guild progress. I'll take my chances upgrading the tank.

 

 

 

The problem here lies with the guild vets. The point of recruiting new members is to replace those that you will lose or have lost. If the vets would rather see their companions geared up than having a newer guild member be ready to take the place of someone who quits, then they don't deserve to make progress.

 

 

 

Again, my interpretation of the DKP system eliminates that possibility. Chances are, something you need will eventually drop, and everyone works toward increasing those chances by repetition. If you don't gear your mains up in the first place, then you won't even have the chance to get that item to drop at all.

 

You keep reiterating that guild drama is a reality and "part of the game." You're telling me that my system doesn't work, but the examples you provide are derived from your own broken interpretation of DKP. Now I'm pointing out to you exactly why your interpretation is causing it. Lay the rules out properly, and no one will have any excuse to cause drama.

 

Your implementation of DKP as expressed in your multiple posts creates far more loot drama than is needed.

 

Mileage may vary, but the point of DKP is to force players to spend points on items they want, and put that against the time they invest.

 

This helps the guild improve overall.

 

You weight your DKP system to the point where the RNG can fail and hold back your guild.

 

Good luck with that. But most people don't raid to see one or two tanks get geared up quickly while they can't bid on items.

[Setanian]

Your implementation of DKP as expressed in your multiple posts creates far more loot drama than is needed.

 

Mileage may vary, but the point of DKP is to force players to spend points on items they want, and put that against the time they invest.

 

This helps the guild improve overall.

 

You weight your DKP system to the point where the RNG can fail and hold back your guild.

 

Good luck with that. But most people don't raid to see one or two tanks get geared up quickly while they can't bid on items.

 

Well it's really entirely subjective to the makeup of the raid force.

 

If the guild has a weak tanking pool, it is in their interest to gear the tanks up, which allows them to tackle the content at their level and lessen the button smashing by the clerics.

 

Likewise, once the tanks are geared to at least an acceptable level, the priority will and does change.

 

Each raiding force has to look at it's ability in terms of being able to tank the content, dps the content and heal the tanks. It would be quite useless to have an uber geared dps pool while having a lack-lustre tanking force.

 

This tangent proves why dps meters are not the be and end all of a raiding force.

[profaneascension]

Your implementation of DKP as expressed in your multiple posts creates far more loot drama than is needed.

 

Please provide me with an example where loot drama could be caused by my system. Is someone who's accumulated a ton of DKP not able to spend it because the items that are dropping aren't equippable by them? Then it's just plain bad luck. He has no right to cause drama. Drama can only be started by people; it's not a fault of the system. Kick those people out of your guild and get better ones.

 

Mileage may vary, but the point of DKP is to force players to spend points on items they want, and put that against the time they invest.

 

This helps the guild improve overall.

 

You weight your DKP system to the point where the RNG can fail and hold back your guild.

 

RNG affects everyone, regardless of whichever system they adopt. If your guild's luck is so bad that healer items never drop, giving them DPS and tanking items isn't going to help, either.

 

Good luck with that. But most people don't raid to see one or two tanks get geared up quickly while they can't bid on items.

 

If they can't accept the rules, they shouldn't be part of that guild or raid. If they want to form up a guild with your DKP system, all the more power to them. If they're okay with seeing everyone's companions wearing raid gear while they're still in blues, hey, have fun with that.

[SnoggyMack]

Please provide me with an example where loot drama could be caused by my system.

 

I did.

 

Your system unfairly weights things in favor of tanks without taking the actual circumstances of how guilds function in a daily basis into account. Your system gives tanks first crack at tank gear 5 bosses into a raid where the other four bosses may have already helped gear the tanks.

 

That's not pleasing to everyone but the tank that is getting preferential treatment.

 

That's loot drama.

 

Tank Gear! Hunter Gear! Agent Gear! Companion Gear! Loot drama. Round and round it goes. DKP equalizes that crap and forces people to spend wisely. But people ALWAYS find a way to whine about loot drama.

Edited January 14, 2012 by SnoggyMack

[Setanian]

My raiding experience, rich as it has been, is completely beside the point, which you seem to be missing entirely by deflecting to posts that have nothing to do with my argument, which is that classes that can use a piece of loot should have first right of refusal to it, no matter how many DKP anyone else in the raid can spend. You purport to disagree with tanks being able to bid on DPS gear because it causes guild drama, and yet you're telling me that any class should be able to bid on an item so long as they have sufficient DKP. Could you please state your position with some semblance of clarity?

 

As you brought up 'clarity'.. Is the item in question Tank gear or multi-class gear?

[profaneascension]

Your system unfairly weights things in favor of tanks without taking the actual circumstances of how guilds function in a daily basis into account. Your system gives tanks first crack at tank gear 5 bosses into a raid where the other four bosses may have already helped gear the tanks.

 

I'm not weighting things in any one class' favor; I just happened to pick tanks as an example. The same could be said for healers or DPS. There's no preferential treatment whatsoever. Here, let me make it clear:

 

If a tank makes drama because no tanking items have dropped, it's that player's fault.

 

If a healer makes drama because no healing items have dropped, it's that player's fault.

 

If a DPS makes drama because no DPS items have dropped, it's that player's fault.

 

Raid designers aren't stupid. You might have noticed that full sets of gear don't drop off any single boss in a raid; the first one might drop gloves for all classes, the next one might drop leggings for all classes, and so on. You will never fully gear up a single class just farming the first few bosses in raid. The balance is already built into the game for you. They do this because they know they must give a reason for every class to stick around until the very last boss of the raid. Until a player no longer needs an item that drops off a boss meant for their class, there is room for an upgrade. Giving that item to another class helps nobody.

 

Oh, and guess what? If your raid's luck with the RNG really is so bad that nothing but tank items drop, guess what happens after the same set of tanking gloves drop for the third time after the two tanks already have them? Now everyone else in the raid gets to spend however many DKP they want on them! Where's the drama in that?

 

DKP equalizes that crap and forces people to spend wisely. But people ALWAYS find a way to whine about loot drama.

 

Your interpretation of DKP encourages more competition to bid on items, whereas my own interpretation seeks to eliminate it. The less competition there is, the fewer opportunities people will have to cause drama.

[profaneascension]

As you brought up 'clarity'.. Is the item in question Tank gear or multi-class gear?

 

It could be any kind of gear. Like I said to SnoggyMack, I used tanks only as an example. A tank shouldn't bid on healing gear or DPS gear; a DPS shouldn't bid on healing or tanking gear; a healer shouldn't bid on DPS or tanking gear.

 

As for multi-class gear, it should still be made available only to those who can use it best. I'm not so inflexible as to state that if two different classes can make use of the item, then only one of the classes should be able to bid on it. But really, how often do you see raid gear of that nature?

 

I believe I've made myself clear. Now if you could tell me what the point of your question was, I would be glad to hear it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by profaneascension

[Setanian]

It could be any kind of gear. Like I said to SnoggyMack, I used tanks only as an example. A tank shouldn't bid on healing gear or DPS gear; a DPS shouldn't bid on healing or tanking gear; a healer shouldn't bid on DPS or tanking gear.

 

As for multi-class gear, it should still be made available only to those who can use it best. I'm not so inflexible as to state that if two different classes can make use of the item, then only one of the classes should be able to bid on it. But really, how often do you see raid gear of that nature?

 

I believe I've made myself clear. Now if you could tell me what the point of your question was, I would be glad to hear it.

 

The point of my question was based on your previous posts relating to tank gear, which I agree with, but I wasn't sure of your attitude towards mixed gear.

 

Is it an offense to seek clarity now?

 

Also, this thread has nothing to with raid gear or DKP

Edited January 14, 2012 by Setanian

[profaneascension]

The point of my question was based on your previous posts relating to tank gear, which I agree with, but I wasn't sure of your attitude towards mixed gear.

 

Is it an offense to seek clarity now?

 

Also, this thread has nothing to with raid gear or DKP

 

Sorry if I seemed curt, I was just perplexed by your pinpointing that one statement of mine out of the essays' worth of text I've typed out on the forums today, lol. Blame my car dealership for making computers with Internet access available while you wait for your vehicle to be serviced.

 

And no, this thread really doesn't have anything to do with those things, but I saw you compare PuGs to DKP and had to comment. Little did I know how far out of control this debate would spin.

Edited January 14, 2012 by profaneascension

[Acererak]

If you skim this thread an look at the arguments people are making you will notice a common theme. Here are some generalized examples.

 

"They steal loot from players who need it"

"They take what inst theirs"

"They are greedy thieves"

 

All these arguments have one underlying philosophy. That you automatically own the item that dropped, so that anyone else who gets it is a thief. Forget need/greed. These people don't think there should be a roll at all, and that certain items should automatically go to them. So their philosophy is "Give me all the items I want, or I will blacklist your character." The first rule children need to learn about playing with others is how to share.

 

And as far as deciding who is more greedy, think about this. The guy who rolls need believes he should have a 25% shot at the item. The guy who calls him a ninja believe he should have a 100% shot at the item. Who is more greedy.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Acererak

[SnoggyMack]

It could be any kind of gear. Like I said to SnoggyMack, I used tanks only as an example. A tank shouldn't bid on healing gear or DPS gear; a DPS shouldn't bid on healing or tanking gear; a healer shouldn't bid on DPS or tanking gear.

 

As for multi-class gear, it should still be made available only to those who can use it best. I'm not so inflexible as to state that if two different classes can make use of the item, then only one of the classes should be able to bid on it. But really, how often do you see raid gear of that nature?

 

I believe I've made myself clear. Now if you could tell me what the point of your question was, I would be glad to hear it.

 

Here's where your loot drama really ramps up:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1398252#edit1398252

 

I'll quote and highlight:

 

The current situation with end game gear and item modifications isn’t final and, in fact, many community members like yourself have correctly guessed at what our plans to correct the current design are.

 

Since this is a fairly important issue to many players, let me disclose more details about what is currently in the work regarding purple items and mods:

 

- All partially moddable purple items will be made fully moddable again, allowing the removal of the armoring, hilt and barrel.

 

- The set bonus of end gear purples (PVP and PVE) will be transferable to custom items.

 

- Some item modifications will be restricted to a certain item type. For example, some item modifications will only fit on helmets, while other will only fit on chests, etc.

 

So in due time, the end-game will evolve where multiple classes will be competing with each other for that "tank item" you describe because of the MOD on it, and how that MOD is an upgrade for their specific build.

 

By that time, all of this "OMG, people roll need for companion" drama will be long gone, replaced by DPS classes seething that healers want Crit mods from the boss drops. Or whatever other "I didn't win that item" argument suits them that day.

Edited January 15, 2012 by SnoggyMack

[SWTOR-GR]

On Tarris group of 16 level 32-37 take down ancient one world boss.

 

3 agents in group. A nice purple protype drops clearly meant for agents. All roll need.

 

A sith assasin also rolls need and wins, saying he needed it for his companion.

 

 

***

 

this must fixed by not alowing to press need if it is not usable. the function is inside ( you can see the usage of this in vendors where you can filter item by usage ).

 

i hope they haven't time to fix the whole loot system . there are many other options in a loot system that are not included in the game.

 

companions are not the character and they have only the role of supporter. never press need if the party has one character that need the item .there always the greed button for this purpose .

Edited January 15, 2012 by SWTOR-GR

[Ranid]

On Tarris group of 16 level 32-37 take down ancient one world boss.

 

3 agents in group. A nice purple protype drops clearly meant for agents. All roll need.

 

A sith assasin also rolls need and wins, saying he needed it for his companion.

 

 

***

 

If it is a purple prototype and I have the crafting to reverse engineer it. I will need it.

[SWTOR-GR]

If it is a purple prototype and I have the crafting to reverse engineer it. I will need it.

 

another reason to be the loot restricted to class / usable atherwise crafetrs will ruin the parties

[newwb]

there is no proper etiquette or unwritten rules. if you start a group and dont establish any loot rules, then its a free for all. if you have loot rules, make them clear before the run. how hard is it to take 2 seconds to type 'dont roll need for companions'? if someone does it anyway, then feel free to shed many tears on the forums. dont just expect everyone to follow your rules which you never tell them about.

[profaneascension]

And as far as deciding who is more greedy, think about this. The guy who rolls need believes he should have a 25% shot at the item. The guy who calls him a ninja believe he should have a 100% shot at the item. Who is more greedy.

 

Nice spindoctoring. I used the exact same argument in another thread a few days ago, with the same numbers but from a different perspective. Let's try it my way:

 

When I agree to join a group, I am already conceding the possibility that I may not be able to roll on an item at all if nothing suited to my class drops. After all, there is only a 25% chance that the item that drops is something I can use.

 

So, who is more greedy? The guy who joins the group thinking he can always roll on every item, 100% of the time, regardless of whether he can use it, or the guy who goes in wanting only items he can use, which has only a 25% chance of dropping from each boss?

 

I already know what you're going to say: you're going to tell me there's no difference between those two perspectives. But in my mind, giving items to people who can actually put the item to use is clearly the better way. Giving items to people who can't use it when it's a clear upgrade for someone else makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

[profaneascension]

So in due time, the end-game will evolve where multiple classes will be competing with each other for that "tank item" you describe because of the MOD on it, and how that MOD is an upgrade for their specific build.

 

By that time, all of this "OMG, people roll need for companion" drama will be long gone, replaced by DPS classes seething that healers want Crit mods from the boss drops. Or whatever other "I didn't win that item" argument suits them that day.

 

Actually, I have no problem with healers competing against DPS classes for +crit mods. They can both use it, right? I don't see an issue there. If an Arsenal Merc wants to roll against a Bodyguard Merc on a +Aim/Endurance/Crit item, that's 100% fine with me.

 

What I do take issue with is when a healer decides to roll on a +defense mod when the tank needs it more. That is what I do not want to see happen.

Edited January 15, 2012 by profaneascension

[Acererak]

 

When I agree to join a group, I am already conceding the possibility that I may not be able to roll on an item at all if nothing suited to my class drops. After all, there is only a 25% chance that the item that drops is something I can use.

 

So, who is more greedy? The guy who joins the group thinking he can always roll on every item, 100% of the time, regardless of whether he can use it, or the guy who goes in wanting only items he can use, which has only a 25% chance of dropping from each boss?

 

The guy who rolls on any item he wants is not being greedy, you are being charitable. Someone doesn't have to be one or the other. That guy is rolling on items that he wants and he helped to obtain. Just because he isn't charitable like you, doesn't make him greedy.

[Darkulous]

What character do people play with 100% of the time? The answer would be their MAIN character!

 

Your companion is NOT played 100% of the time and should not be able to compete against a MAIN that is played 100% of the time.

 

People are just looking for an excuse to ninja.

 

People who do this will find themselves lonely in end-game.

[SnoggyMack]

People are just looking for an excuse to ninja.

 

It's already been established that if you can roll for the item, there is no ninja looting taking place.

[Darkulous]

It's already been established that if you can roll for the item, there is no ninja looting taking place.

 

established by who? THe forum? Lolololol.

 

What's your toons name and what server do you play on? I'd like to know so I can avoid you. I, on the other hand, have no problems disclosing that information because I don't play like an ******e.

[Synalon]

I've been playing on Progentitor server since early access, I've got 3 characers hovering around lvl 30 and one at 44 and so far I've only pugged.

 

But I can honestly say theres been no ninja looting at all in any of my groups, people have been needing if its a clear upgrade if its not for their char they greed or pass.

 

If they want it for a companion they simply ask if they can also roll need because a companion needs it and usually get told " sure ".

 

My highest lvl chars are a Juggernaut/tank and Sorceror/Healer but even on my alts I've not run into anything like this.

 

In fact so far the only bad part of pugging was the two guys who shouted for people for a heroic 4 , got their last step done ahead of me and another guy and wanted to leave the group instead of helping us finish.

 

That said I mentioned how they was wanting to leave after we helped them which wasn't fair so they stayed and helped.