Bioware: Allow Advanced Class Respec!

[WarlordJim]

I can't believe there's been almost 53 pages of this thread arguing what is a "class" or a "specialization" and comparing classes in WoW to subclasses in SwTOR.

 

Children, it goes like this.

 

Jedi Knight is an ARCHETYPE

 

Jedi Knight - Guardian is a CLASS. (Regardless of what some Bioware rep called it, the game itself names it an "ADVANCED CLASS", so it is a CLASS as defined by the actual game)

 

Jedi Knight - Guardian - Defense is a SPECIALISATION. Also known as "spec" in other MMO's, and resembles the talent trees such as the ones seen in WoW.

 

Some people are saying, well no, its just a "subclass" and not a real class because in WoW u roll a class from lvl 1 and blah blah, talent trees blah blah.

 

No.

 

SwTOR just has a different way of introducing you to your future "CLASS" by giving u an introduction to its' mechanics on a basic level by first making u choose an "ARCHETYPE", or template if you will, and then giving you some abilities / skills to use to get a taste for the mechanics / resource system.

 

A correct analogy would go like this.

 

In WoW, you pick an "ARCHETYPE" - Spellcaster, Melee, Hybrid, (this is just on a basic level) But you do this yourself before you create your character as you consider hmm, what kind of character do I want to play? You decide you want to play a SPELLCASTER, so you might roll a Warlock, get it to level 10 and decide.. Actually NO, I don't like having a pet, I think I want a Mage, and so you then have to recreate your toon, and away you go. You then get to level 10 and decide you want to spec your mage fire.

 

So what you have is an ARCHETYPE (Spellcaster) CLASS (Mage) SPEC (Fire).

 

SWToR just extends the character creation process / class choice over 10 levels i.e a tutorial period, instead of you choosing your future class at the actual char creation screen.

[BubbaChubb]

Dude i see where your coming from and all but if your really that dumb to rush in and just choose one without looking it up and researching.. then you can't blame anyone :/

[GCRust]

 

I just cannot understand what benefit is being offered by the restriction.

 

 

What is the primary component of most modern Bioware games? Choices. Once you've made these choices, you can't go back and make other choices. You have to live with them, for good or ill, or just start over again. Be that with a new character or from another save point.

 

The advanced class is a *choice*. You are choosing which path to follow, what role to take. And given the bulk of classes tend to have widely different roles...

 

For example, a Jedi Consular/Sith Inquisitor can be a Tank, Melee DPS, Range DPS, or a Healer.

 

Basically, allowing AC Respecing would mean there's no reason to be anything other then a Consular/Inquisitor because that class offers all possible roles.

[Kypp]

Plz dont allow advanced class respec. I think it is fine how it is. It doesnt take much to get to level 10. It's like a completely different class. Shouldn't be allowed at all.

[Lethality]

Those of us supporting this proposal have fulfilled that burden.

 

Not until BioWare steps into this thread and says "you're right, we were wrong."

 

People who are against the motion are only rightly expected to explain why this is a bad idea. So far I've only seen arguments like "you just want instant gratification" and "because it's not done that way in other MMOs".

 

I answered it in my last post. And again below.

 

 

We're not asking for the ability to change classes

 

Yes you are.

 

The construct of advanced classes in TOR = classes elsewhere. That's why it's the equivalent of switching classes. And that is the only answer you need as to why it would be bad for the game.

 

The other advanced class: wears different armor, uses different weapons, has different abilities and is capable of different roles.

 

If that isn't a more cut-and-dried definition of what a "class" is, then I don't know what else to say to you.

[PJEBarlow]

Dude i see where your coming from and all but if your really that dumb to rush in and just choose one without looking it up and researching.. then you can't blame anyone :/

 

I'd agree with you if it wasn't a brand new game and, frankly, I'd probably be inclined to disagree anyway because you can't know if the play style of an AC suits you as an individual until you try it. That's exactly why we can already change talent trees.

 

 

Not until BioWare steps into this thread and says "you're right, we were wrong."

 

No Bioware employees have opted to contribute to this discussion so, until they do, you're mistaken. We put forward our argument, you who are against it put forward a counter-argument, that's how it works.

 

Yes you are.

 

The construct of advanced classes in TOR = classes elsewhere. That's why it's the equivalent of switching classes. And that is the only answer you need as to why it would be bad for the game.

 

The other advanced class: wears different armor, uses different weapons, has different abilities and is capable of different roles.

 

If that isn't a more cut-and-dried definition of what a "class" is, then I don't know what else to say to you.

 

Look, I have not taken part in the whole semantic argument, I am just using the simple terms as they are laid out in the game client itself.

 

Screenshot.

 

For the purposes of clarity: When I say "class", I am referring to the four main classes. When I say "advanced class" or "AC" I am referring to the two advanced classes attached to each class.

 

I don't want to get drawn in to the whole "classes/archetypes" debate because I don't like semantics, so now you know what I was referring to.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[Lethality]

1. On the Holonet Bioware calls "AC" Specializations.

2 On the Holonet Bioware calls "base classes" archetypes

3. The Jedi Guardian and Sentinel both use Jedi Knight skills and gain them to 50.

4. By the definition an archetype cannot be a specialization it would have to have no common traits or abilities.

5. While you gain new abilities the base traits do not change from Knight -> Guardian.

6. Prototype and base design = Jedi Knight.

 

In the game, open your Guild window.

 

Under the "Class" column, tell me what you see.

 

I'll wait here.

[GetPloughed]

No. Choices should matter. Don't like? Guess what! You can create another character - up to 8 in fact on the same server.

 

Get over it.

 

With your logic there should be 16 character slots. There isn't.

 

A one time change of AC doesn't hurt anyone. There is only so much information you can gather from a little paragraph. But I guess in the world of internet forums every single person has an unlimited amount of time leveling up multiple characters to 30 to find out if a class fits their play style or not before having to start over again, hence wasting weeks to get a character to 50 to enjoy the raiding content.

[Lethality]

I'd agree with you if it wasn't a brand new game and, frankly, I'd probably be inclined to disagree anyway because you can't know if the play style of an AC suits you as an individual until you try it. That's exactly why we can already change talent trees.

 

You are all over the map with this.

 

How did you know you were going to like the class you chose in other games? You didn't. You simply played it and decided if it was for you. If not, re-roll or quit.

 

At least BioWare is giving you 10 levels to get the basic feel before choosing your combat class.

[sithlordcip]

Im in favor for advanced class respec, and make the respec cost like 500k credits

[Pyrolight]

I can't believe there's been almost 53 pages of this thread arguing what is a "class" or a "specialization" and comparing classes in WoW to subclasses in SwTOR.

 

Children, it goes like this.

 

Jedi Knight is an ARCHETYPE

 

Jedi Knight - Guardian is a CLASS. (Regardless of what some Bioware rep called it, the game itself names it an "ADVANCED CLASS", so it is a CLASS as defined by the actual game)

 

Jedi Knight - Guardian - Defense is a SPECIALISATION. Also known as "spec" in other MMO's, and resembles the talent trees such as the ones seen in WoW.

 

Some people are saying, well no, its just a "subclass" and not a real class because in WoW u roll a class from lvl 1 and blah blah, talent trees blah blah.

 

No.

 

The holonet says the guardian is a specialization not a class.

 

 

SwTOR just has a different way of introducing you to your future "CLASS" by giving u an introduction to its' mechanics on a basic level by first making u choose an "ARCHETYPE", or template if you will, and then giving you some abilities / skills to use to get a taste for the mechanics / resource system.

 

A correct analogy would go like this.

 

In WoW, you pick an "ARCHETYPE" - Spellcaster, Melee, Hybrid, (this is just on a basic level) But you do this yourself before you create your character as you consider hmm, what kind of character do I want to play? You decide you want to play a SPELLCASTER, so you might roll a Warlock, get it to level 10 and decide.. Actually NO, I don't like having a pet, I think I want a Mage, and so you then have to recreate your toon, and away you go. You then get to level 10 and decide you want to spec your mage fire.

 

So what you have is an ARCHETYPE (Spellcaster) CLASS (Mage) SPEC (Fire).

 

SWToR just extends the character creation process / class choice over 10 levels i.e a tutorial period, instead of you choosing your future class at the actual char creation screen.

 

Without going over my previous arguments you are making in incorrect comparison.

 

JK (AT) -> Guard (Class) -> Defense (Spec)

Melee (AT) -> War (class) -> Prot (Spec)

 

You see the problem here right? Your Archetypes are not comparable.

 

You can argue the initial point but you cannot make the comparison.

[hata]

 

 

You seem to have gotten mixed up, because the two things aren't mutually exclusive. Even if they implemented it in a way that you chose your AC at level 1 instead of level 10, it would only be fair to give everyone the option of a free one-off respec (in fact they'd probably actually do this if they ever made any changes to talent trees and whatnot).

 

I'm not saying "I'd happily delete my level X character if I could respec my AC at level 1", because I wouldn't. I'd be happier because it would mean the situation would never come up again, but I'd probably still not re-roll my current character and would prefer a one-off respec for it.

 

I am saying it's a good alternative to a respec system that is implemented and stays in the game permanently.

 

they only free one off respec is a reroll and yes a reroll and a respec are exclusive otherwise we would not be having a debate. You are basicly saying if there were not prelim classes and all just the AC classes at lvl one you would just go eh and reroll, but what if the 1-10 content is the same even if you pick your AC at lvl 1. Then it is the same situation we have now.

 

Your argument just ends up being reroll.

 

Not being agressive just dont understand where this isnt lining up.

[Pyrolight]

Basically, allowing AC Respecing would mean there's no reason to be anything other then a Consular/Inquisitor because that class offers all possible roles.

 

I sorta thought the story was the point? Also that is like saying everyone was druids in WoW.

 

Also everyone is currently Sorcs and assassins anyway.

[rzrknight]

I dont care , still will say NO BW NEVER DO THIS.

i mean dual spec is ok , but changing AC is a bit to much already, and im usually open minded about always giving the player options lol.

[GCRust]

A one time change of AC doesn't hurt anyone. There is only so much information you can gather from a little paragraph. But I guess in the world of internet forums every single person has an unlimited amount of time leveling up multiple characters to 30 to find out if a class fits their play style or not before having to start over again, hence wasting weeks to get a character to 50 to enjoy the raiding content.

 

Actually, when I got my Jedi to Level 10 I logged out for the night, went to bed, got up, went to work, came home, kissed my wife, played with my dog, ate dinner, logged in, and then made my character choice.

 

I spent a good 15 hours thinking about whether I wanted to be a Guardian or a Sentinel. It wasn't the only thing on my mind that day, but I gave the choice the weight it deserves.

 

Plus, you don't have to wait till 30 to see if a Archtype isn't right for you. I got fed up with the Sniper around Level 20. While that's still 20 levels of backtracking, it's hardly an insane amount of time "wasted". At least this time around I know how to play the dang game.

[sithlordcip]

I do not support the idea put forth by the OP.

 

Advanced Class is your actual class. Everything 10> is training to get a basic feel for your role.

 

Its the same class, just with a different role and abilities, I dont get why people are so against this, you must understand that this will come later in an expansion.

 

Like someone already said, what if someone chose an advanced class and got with it till lvl 30 and finds himself that he doesnt enjoy it?

 

For example I would love to be able to respec from Sorc to Assasin because the Assasin actually uses his lightsaber in combat

[Pyrolight]

In the game, open your Guild window.

 

Under the "Class" column, tell me what you see.

 

I'll wait here.

 

I am confused as to what point you are actually addressing here. Are you saying Bioware didn't call Guardian/Sent specializations on the holonet or something about archetypes.

 

Basically what am I looking for here?

[GCRust]

For example I would love to be able to respec from Sorc to Assasin because the Assasin actually uses his lightsaber in combat

 

A double bladed lightsaber. Plus, Sorcs can use their lightsaber if they want. Or you know, roll a Warrior.

 

I was a Paladin in WoW. If there's one thing I am loathe to ever repeat, it's hauling around multiple sets of armor and weapons to suit whatever spec I am at the moment.

[PJEBarlow]

You are all over the map with this.

 

How did you know you were going to like the class you chose in other games? You didn't. You simply played it and decided if it was for you. If not, re-roll or quit.

 

At least BioWare is giving you 10 levels to get the basic feel before choosing your combat class.

 

I'm not all over the map because I'm not talking about other games, I'm talking about SW:TOR. I currently play SW:TOR and this is the appropriate place to discuss suggestions to play SW:TOR.

 

they only free one off respec is a reroll and yes a reroll and a respec are exclusive otherwise we would not be having a debate. You are basicly saying if there were not prelim classes and all just the AC classes at lvl one you would just go eh and reroll, but what if the 1-10 content is the same even if you pick your AC at lvl 1. Then it is the same situation we have now.

 

Your argument just ends up being reroll.

 

Not being agressive just dont understand where this isnt lining up.

 

I'll try to explain it as simply as I can. I would like either: -

 

a. A function to be able to respec my AC at any time, I am completely open to there being a level cap and an in-game fee involved in doing this so that I eventually have to stick to one of them.

 

b. The point at which you choose your AC being changed from level 10 to level 1, but it would only be fair that existing characters got the opportunity to make a one-time AC change otherwise they would have to re-roll and nothing would have been accomplished apart from it being a preventative measure in the future.

 

I hope that clears it up.

 

A double bladed lightsaber. Plus, Sorcs can use their lightsaber if they want. Or you know, roll a Warrior.

 

I was a Paladin in WoW. If there's one thing I am loathe to ever repeat, it's hauling around multiple sets of armor and weapons to suit whatever spec I am at the moment.

 

Thankfully Bioware seem to have already thought of this because ACs share item stats. You'd have to change your weapon, though.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[WarlordJim]

I'd agree with you if it wasn't a brand new game and, frankly, I'd probably be inclined to disagree anyway because you can't know if the play style of an AC suits you as an individual until you try it. That's exactly why we can already change talent trees.

 

You're right, you can't really know what the playstyle is going to feel like until you try it.

 

And so what?

 

How far do we take this then? I rolled a Vanguard and decided I don't really like the class, but I don't want to play a Commando... Can I just respec to Sage?

 

You might say, well its entirely different you're trying to change your class entirely... oh wait.. the advanced classes ARE two completely seperate classes.. So I guess I should do what every other player since the dawn of the MMO has done when they dislike their current class / want to play a new one..

 

Roll a new toon...

 

I certainly agree that you should be able to change your spec within your advanced class, and I certainly support dual spec, so i'm not against being able to change your mind on certain things, but being able to completely *respec* your actual class.... No, that's just bad for not only the social aspect of the game, but also on the individual level for the player's feeling of seperation from other characters

[Lethality]

I'm not all over the map because I'm not talking about other games, I'm talking about SW:TOR. I currently play SW:TOR and this is the appropriate place to discuss suggestions to play SW:TOR.

 

Well, good luck with that then. BioWare developers are against the idea, at least at this stage in the game's lifecycle. A few years down the road? Sure, they'll do it. They've already said they have the tech to do it, just gotta turn it on.

[PJEBarlow]

You're right, you can't really know what the playstyle is going to feel like until you try it.

 

And so what?

 

And so we're suggesting a respec system, or level 1 AC choice, so that it avoids needlessly re-treading over content.

 

How far do we take this then? I rolled a Vanguard and decided I don't really like the class, but I don't want to play a Commando... Can I just respec to Sage?

 

Nobody is proposing the ability to do this.

 

You might say, well its entirely different you're trying to change your class entirely... oh wait.. the advanced classes ARE two completely seperate classes.. So I guess I should do what every other player since the dawn of the MMO has done when they dislike their current class / want to play a new one..

 

Roll a new toon...

 

I certainly agree that you should be able to change your spec within your advanced class, and I certainly support dual spec, so i'm not against being able to change your mind on certain things, but being able to completely *respec* your actual class.... No, that's just bad for not only the social aspect of the game, but also on the individual level for the player's feeling of seperation from other characters

 

So why not meet us half way and let's say we'll change the AC selection part to level 1 instead of level 10 and all existing characters get a one-time-only free AC respec?

 

Well, good luck with that then. BioWare developers are against the idea, at least at this stage in the game's lifecycle. A few years down the road? Sure, they'll do it. They've already said they have the tech to do it, just gotta turn it on.

 

I don't recall seeing a Bioware opinion on this since quite a while before launch, but who knows maybe it'll get implemented eventually.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[CygnusMX]

I dont see how people say they dont have time to roll another charactor, If you truly didnt have the time to Roll You most likely wouldnt be gaming at all.

 

My plan is to roll Republic , then an Empire, Then a republic, then empire ect...8 charactors total.

 

I might then roll a second repeat charactor from Republic or empire to check out the other advanced class that I didnt go through with the first time, but that will be quite awhile.

By the time I go through both republic and empire I might go a 2nd round with 1 ,2,or 3 of my favorite classes useing a differnt advanced class. by then it wont feel as if I Re-rolled last week ,itl would be months later.

[Poogination]

Holy **** the amount of nerdy fanboism in this thread is astounding.

[Woopya]

I do not agree with switching. It creates the "flavor of the month" effect.

 

It also, like it did in Rift, makes it so you do not have to be social. Players changing clases make LESS interdependancy, as well as more loot whoring since everyone will roll on everything either class needs.

 

 

Lastly, each CLASS has a story line you must work through. The storyline are a BIG part of this game. Switching takes away from each class' story line.