Expertise - symptom of a disease (it rhymes!)

[thomasdr]

We DO want gear progression, but progression should be about skill and player investment, not a linear predictable timesink.

 

Skilled players gain gear faster at the moment.

Skill gets rewarded and for people who aren't skilled the timesink is bigger but they will get their gear eventually, I don't see what's wrong with that.

 

If they didn't reward time investment for poor players they'd be even easier to faceroll. It creates the same problem. There's always gonna be a gear gap between hardcore players and casual players and that's how an MMO works, hecks that's how real life works. Accomplishing something takes time and even less talented people can be succesfull if they work hard. I really don't see what's wrong with that.

 

Everything else is just speculation, we don't know how lower tier gear is gonna be handed out once there's a new level of gear, it might be easy and fast enough for new people to get their hands onto a competitive set of gear in no time. You don't need the best gear available to be good, you only need it to be the best and to be the best you need to invest a lot of time anyways.

[DKDArtagnan]

A rated warfront is pretty self-explanatory. The fact that you say 'it means anything' speaks volumes.

 

Claiming to understand something is not impressive.

 

How will it work, exactly? How will it address the problem I'm describing?

 

Your problem is that your a casual who is probably level 30 and expects to win, because if you were level 50 you would know how piss easy it is to get the expertise gear. I get it.

 

Bioware has already addressed this issues.

 

1) Separation of low levels and level 50's

2) Rated warfronts at level 50.

 

In each each instance you should be playing people at your own level. In neither case is the expertise stat touched.

 

Here's a hint ... expertise is an easy way for bioware to cancel some of the nefarious 'power creep' in gear we've seen in other games. This is why nerf expertise threads are just a waste of forum bandwidth and pretty tired do seeing scores of the same posts by people who don't understand it.

 

My goal here is to make people understand why it exists and stop stupid threads like this that show an absolute lack of critical thinking. Bioware spent a lot of time thinking about the expertise stat and the problems presented in other games because of problems like:

 

1) power creep

2) power raiders farming pvp gear for pve.

 

Oh, so now you imagine me to be a casual with no basis for it? I've specifically said I want it all to be about skill and dedication.

 

I'm sorry, but your pointless arrogance and unsubstantiated claims makes you a waste of time to communicate with.

 

Have fun.

[Orangerascal]

Claiming to understand something is not impressive.

 

How will it work, exactly? How will it address the problem I'm describing?

 

Because you will be fighting people at the same gear level and skill level as you ... derp.

 

here is where i mentioned it:

 

 

Bioware has already addressed this issues.

 

1) Separation of low levels and level 50's

2) Rated warfronts at level 50.

 

In each each instance you should be playing people at your own level. In neither case is the expertise stat touched.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Orangerascal

[thomasdr]

Why not have expertise on PvE gear that only works against NPC characters.

 

There is, it's called pve gear. It's more effective in PVE and less effective in PVP, just like expertise is more effective in PVP and less effective in PVE.

[DKDArtagnan]

Skilled players gain gear faster at the moment.

Skill gets rewarded and for people who aren't skilled the timesink is bigger but they will get their gear eventually, I don't see what's wrong with that.

 

I'll repeat then:

 

Getting gear is a pointless timesink REGARDLESS of your skill level.

PvE players who work hard to PvE can't compete in high level PvP - because they haven't done the timesink.

PvP players who work hard to PvP can't compete in high level Operations because they haven't done the timesink.

In a few months, any fresh 50 will be facing a frustrating struggle to attain gear, because they can't compete regardless of personal skill.

 

If they didn't reward time investment for poor players they'd be even easier to faceroll. It creates the same problem. There's always gonna be a gear gap between hardcore players and casual players and that's how an MMO works, hecks that's how real life works. Accomplishing something takes time and even less talented people can be succesfull if they work hard. I really don't see what's wrong with that.

 

No, because I want a working matching system - where your gear level/rank determines who you get paired with. I want bad players playing bad players in WZs (naturally, progressively facing better players as they learn) - and open world PvP SHOULD punish bad players.

 

The "rated WFs" won't remove the expertise issue AFAIK.

 

Your mistake is that you think of "hardcore" as a matter of how much time you spend, rather than how much EFFORT you spend.

 

Everything else is just speculation, we don't know how lower tier gear is gonna be handed out once there's a new level of gear, it might be easy and fast enough for new people to get their hands onto a competitive set of gear in no time. You don't need the best gear available to be good, you only need it to be the best and to be the best you need to invest a lot of time anyways.

 

If my "speculation" is wrong, it's wrong based on what's out right now.

 

If they're going to fix all these problems, then I'll gladly shut up.

Edited January 13, 2012 by DKDArtagnan

[Orangerascal]

Why not have expertise on PvE gear that only works against NPC characters.

 

Because without a stat like expertise ... in order to balance players, bioware will need to directly manipulate the class.

 

Which would you rather they nerf after the gear 'power creep' ... the pve mob or the player? Computers don't care if you reduce their damage by 50% (or increase another computer's damage by 50%).

Edited January 13, 2012 by Orangerascal

[RealAeiouy]

We DO want gear progression, but progression should be about skill and player investment, not a linear predictable timesink.

 

That makes zero sense.

[RealAeiouy]

Obviously, because of the reasons given already.

 

If you want to understand, and not just react, try to read the posts in the thread thoroughly and realise the alternatives.

 

You don't want to pvp to pvp we get it. I suggest you just don't pvp if pvping is too much of an inconvenience to pvp.

 

Most of us like to pvp so we have no problem pvping to pvp and don't feel an alternative is needed.

[DKDArtagnan]

You don't want to pvp to pvp we get it. I suggest you just don't pvp if pvping is too much of an inconvenience to pvp.

 

Most of us like to pvp so we have no problem pvping to pvp and don't feel an alternative is needed.

 

You don't understand what I'm saying.

 

I want to PvP and I want gear to reflect my performance in PvP. Not my time spent in PvP.

 

Clear?

[RealAeiouy]

Yes, which is why I'm saying it should be based on skill rather than time.

 

 

 

It's trivially easy to get PvP gear AT THIS TIME. In a few months, as a fresh level 50, it will be incredibly frustrating because you'll be playing against T2+ gear players with full on expertise.

 

That's the very core of the problem with expertise.

 

Sure, you'll eventually get it by losing match after match - but is that FUN?

 

No, and your skill won't matter squat - you just have to suck it up.

 

That's why I want the stat GONE and replaced by a better matching/rank system.

 

Pvp is a team sport. It will be easier to get gear in the future because everyone on your team will be decked out as well. Many of us have been through pvp evolution in many other games. These are not legitimate concerns.

[Orangerascal]

You don't understand what I'm saying.

 

I want to PvP and I want gear to reflect my performance in PvP. Not my time spent in PvP.

 

Clear?

 

You realise the more time you spend doing something, the more skilled you become? Also since you keep mentioning 'skill' read this: Dunning–Kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)

 

I'm also going to mention that real skill comes from playing with a good team. You think Messi would be as good as he is without the help of barcelona?

Edited January 13, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Hamstaxo]

remove the soulbindsystem and we can remove expertise.

its just as simple as that

[RealAeiouy]

Ehm, so you think it's fun being on a team and not being able to contribute in a WZ?

 

You think it's fun encountering 50s in Ilum and during world PvP and performing like ****?

 

Great, in WZs, if you're lucky and the pathetic matching system provides 50s with equal gear - you can stand around and hope for the best.

 

Moronic, at best.

 

 

 

You obviously don't mind being worthless in PvP during match after match or in world PvP. That's fine, and as such - I guess Expertise doesn't bother you.

 

It bothers me, though, as well as other players.

 

 

 

You seem to miss that I don't like this either.

 

If you can't contribute in pvp as a lower geared / tiered player you are playing wrong. You often have to play differently in that position but you can always massively contribute

 

Again experience shows us these are not real problems.

[DKDArtagnan]

Pvp is a team sport. It will be easier to get gear in the future because everyone on your team will be decked out as well. Many of us have been through pvp evolution in many other games. These are not legitimate concerns.

 

Unfortunately, there's no rational argument behind what you're saying that supports Expertise - except you don't see the problem.

[DKDArtagnan]

remove the soulbindsystem and we can remove expertise.

its just as simple as that

 

Wouldn't mind a less rigid gear system overall, but let's not expect miracles

[DKDArtagnan]

If you can't contribute in pvp as a lower geared / tiered player you are playing wrong. You often have to play differently in that position but you can always massively contribute

 

Again experience shows us these are not real problems.

 

Again, if you can't present a rational argument - there's nothing to respond to.

[RealAeiouy]

QFT

 

Why must the equal playing field be when everyone has the same gear after spending hundereds of hours getting said gear. Why can't it be right now, and whoever is the most skilled is victorious? Let PvP be PvP and not about who worked the hardest getting the most advantage in gear and not skill!

 

Here is the issue... The most skilled pvp players don't care about pvping for pvp gear, they are fine with it because they like pvp and are good at it.

 

Those claiming their mad skills are being subverted by lack of gear seem to have an unrealistic opinion of their abilities in pvp.

 

Gear in this game does not keep talented players from contributing. If you believe the gear is holding you back you will find another reason why you under perform once you get the gear.

 

I have never known a legitimately good pvp player who complained about having to get gear.

[Hamstaxo]

or even better. make a valor based skillsystem so even the shiny geared pve guys will be crushed because they have a lack of "skills"

[DKDArtagnan]

Here is the issue... The most skilled pvp players don't care about pvping for pvp gear, they are fine with it because they like pvp and are good at it.

 

Those claiming their mad skills are being subverted by lack of gear seem to have an unrealistic opinion of their abilities in pvp.

 

Gear in this game does not keep talented players from contributing. If you believe the gear is holding you back you will find another reason why you under perform once you get the gear.

 

I have never known a legitimately good pvp player who complained about having to get gear.

 

All players care about gear, or we wouldn't be playing an MMO.

 

So, you're very wrong.

 

If I was a bad player, I'd have to be pretty stupid asking for a skill-based gear progression system.

 

But it's not all about me - and if I'm a lousy player, so be it. I still want the game to reward skill over time.

 

Pretty simple.

[Talkative]

I don't want a gear grind for PvP. I would much prefer that gear in PvP be all about looks and the stats just be thrown to a pre-determined value. The only consumables usable in PvP should be the ones purchased from PvP vendors.

 

Yes, that means that there's essentially no end game for PvPers, but let's be honest: there's already essentially no end game for PvPers, and this game is going to be aimed at casuals.

 

Plus there's no need to worry about balancing the gear received from PvE since it matters not at all except for the looks in PvP.

[Feskitt]

You get pve players on board with pvp players getting equal rewards and access to the best items in game via pvp then we will talk. Until that time there is nothing to discuss

 

I'm 100% PvE until I hit max lvl and grind out the best PvE gear.

 

Then I'm 100% PvP as my end-game content.

 

 

I support this premise. I support being able to get equally good gear with either PvE or PvP, assuming "equal amounts" of time and effort put into either.

 

 

Oh, and screw Expertise and Biochem.

 

 

[DKDArtagnan]

I'm 100% PvE until I hit max lvl and grind out the best PvE gear.

 

Then I'm 100% PvP as my end-game content.

 

 

I support this premise. I support being able to get equally good gear with either PvE or PvP, assuming "equal amounts" of time and effort put into either.

 

 

Oh, and screw Expertise and Biochem.

 

 

 

Indeed, thank you

[SandTrout]

I don't want a gear grind for PvP. I would much prefer that gear in PvP be all about looks and the stats just be thrown to a pre-determined value. The only consumables usable in PvP should be the ones purchased from PvP vendors.

This is complete BS. I don't play games for the god-forsaken gear grind. I loath needing to do repetitive tasks in order to participate in the part of the game that I like. You might play MMOs for the grid, but I don't. I play for the wide-scale competition and to see what clever tactics I will need to develop or counter.

 

Keep your damned grind to yourself.

[EternalFinality]

I've said it once so I'll say it again:.

 

The funny thing is Bioware tried to even the playing field for all levels with their bolstering system. This indicates they wanted all people no matter what level they were to have a chance at victory.

 

Then they completely throw it out the window with a PvP stat, and worse, a LAZY implementation of a PvP stat.

 

Expertise is only useful to dominate people who don't have it. It's an increase in damage coupled with a decrease in damage taken, which flatly cancels out against someone with equal amounts. (Except for healing....)

 

"PvP players" whine endlessly about how if it didn't exist that "PvE players" could come over with PvE gear and faceroll, but if PvP gear were the same strength (without a garbage PvP stat) I don't see any issues whatsoever as the PvP players would have more skill and experience at PvPing.

 

Unless that's your fear - that the PvE players aren't actually worse than you are, who spends all your time PvPing exclusively. You fear them and need your precious artificial advantage.

 

Another thing broken about a PvP stat is it basically doubles the gear penalty.

 

If I'm a fresh 50, and I fight someone with raid gear, they have a gear advantage - more HP, more damage, more armor, etc.

 

If I fight someone in PvP gear, not only do I have the same gear disadvantage (remember, PvP gear has raid gear-level stats on it in ADDITION to expertise!) but a massive expertise disadvantage.

 

I have no chance whatsoever.

 

Expertise only "works" at its stupid purpose of giving an advantage over raid gear when FIGHTING PEOPLE IN RAID GEAR. Fighting someone who has neither is just utter obliteration. Without the PvP stat you'd be at a major disadvantage, but at least you'd have a chance.

 

This is the critical flaw with a PvP stat.

[Feskitt]

"PvP players" whine endlessly about how if it didn't exist that "PvE players" could come over with PvE gear and faceroll, but if PvP gear were the same strength (without a garbage PvP stat) I don't see any issues whatsoever as the PvP players would have more skill and experience at PvPing.

 

This is the truth.