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Expertise - symptom of a disease (it rhymes!)


DKDArtagnan

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It's a very weak design crutch introduced by Blizzard (AFAIK), primarily because a lot of raiders in WoW facerolled PvP players - because the gear disparity was huge between raid-gear and most PvP gear.

 

For some reason, it has become the norm to separate PvP from PvE as much as possible, as if the human beings playing the games came from different planets.

 

In my opinion, there should be no such separation. There are many ways to go about giving players a good experience, and this is just one of the weakest out there.

 

A better way to do it, would be to match players with similar TOTAL gear stats - and I see no reason why PvE/PvP gear can't be similar in that case. It doesn't have to be a perfect match - just something within reason. You can always boost people with a "bolster-like" system if the disparity is too big with few players online.

 

Considering the tiny amount of players in each WZ - that shouldn't be hard to implement in a way where queues had a reasonable wait time.

 

But the issue goes much deeper than that.

 

Modern MMOs cater a lot to the TIME spent playing, rather than the SKILL with which you play. Apparently, it's supposed to be competitive even between people who don't want to invest in becoming good at the game and those who dedicate most of their time to becoming good players.

 

I've never quite understood that. I think it would be reasonable to reward people for their PERFORMANCE much more than their time spent playing. This is just as essential for the raids (I mean "operations").

 

It's "modern" to allow every player access to all content, regardless of their skill level. So, it's not so much a game with challenge - but rather a predictable timesink. Apparently, developers don't think players enjoy a challenge - because that makes it hard to achieve.

 

Funny that, as WoW had millions of subscribers even during the ridiculous PvP ranking system they had after a year or so. Apparently, som players can enjoy a game without being number one at everything along with everyone else being number one.

 

This means gear progression wouldn't have to be vertical - and the best gear should only be possible to attain through SKILL - rather than time spent playing.

 

Obviously, that requires a level playing field - because even the best players can't beat players who're several hundred percent superior in terms of stats. This means that there has to be a much smarter matching algorithm - and a much more intricate design in terms of ranking and ways to excel both alone and as a team. For instance, rewarding damage/healing/etc. output without taking into consideration gear level is MORONIC. You HAVE to reward such things based on POTENTIAL output - not just output.

 

Also, the game needs something to do once you've achieved a high rank. This means tournaments for WZs - and even more important, meaningful world PvP where you can enjoy your achievements.

 

In short, this is not the game you're looking for - if you want that kind of system.

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It's a very weak design crutch introduced by Blizzard (AFAIK), primarily because a lot of raiders in WoW facerolled PvP players - because the gear disparity was huge between raid-gear and most PvP gear.

 

For some reason, it has become the norm to separate PvP from PvE as much as possible, as if the human beings playing the games came from different planets.

 

In my opinion, there should be no such separation. There are many ways to go about giving players a good experience, and this is just one of the weakest out there.

 

A better way to do it, would be to match players with similar TOTAL gear stats - and I see no reason why PvE/PvP gear can't be similar in that case. It doesn't have to be a perfect match - just something within reason. You can always boost people with a "bolster-like" system if the disparity is too big with few players online.

 

Considering the tiny amount of players in each WZ - that shouldn't be hard to implement in a way where queues had a reasonable wait time.

 

But the issue goes much deeper than that.

 

Modern MMOs cater a lot to the TIME spent playing, rather than the SKILL with which you play. Apparently, it's supposed to be competitive even between people who don't want to invest in becoming good at the game and those who dedicate most of their time to becoming good players.

 

I've never quite understood that. I think it would be reasonable to reward people for their PERFORMANCE much more than their time spent playing. This is just as essential for the raids (I mean "operations").

 

It's "modern" to allow every player access to all content, regardless of their skill level. So, it's not so much a game with challenge - but rather a predictable timesink. Apparently, developers don't think players enjoy a challenge - because that makes it hard to achieve.

 

Funny that, as WoW had millions of subscribers even during the ridiculous PvP ranking system they had after a year or so. Apparently, som players can enjoy a game without being number one at everything along with everyone else being number one.

 

This means gear progression wouldn't have to be vertical - and the best gear should only be possible to attain through SKILL - rather than time spent playing.

 

Obviously, that requires a level playing field - because even the best players can't beat players who're several hundred percent superior in terms of stats. This means that there has to be a much smarter matching algorithm - and a much more intricate design in terms of ranking and ways to excel both alone and as a team. For instance, rewarding damage/healing/etc. output without taking into consideration gear level is MORONIC. You HAVE to reward such things based on POTENTIAL output - not just output.

 

Also, the game needs something to do once you've achieved a high rank. This means tournaments for WZs - and even more important, meaningful world PvP where you can enjoy your achievements.

 

In short, this is not the game you're looking for - if you want that kind of system.

 

You get pve players on board with pvp players getting equal rewards and access to the best items in game via pvp then we will talk. Until that time there is nothing to discuss

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You get pve players on board with pvp players getting equal rewards and access to the best items in game via pvp then we will talk. Until that time there is nothing to discuss

 

Nothing to discuss? You mean you have nothing to add? That's ok.

 

But that's pretty much what I'm suggesting.

 

Good players should get good gear, regardless of whether they play PvE or PvP.

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Nothing to discuss? You mean you have nothing to add? That's ok.

 

But that's pretty much what I'm suggesting.

 

Good players should get good gear, regardless of whether they play PvE or PvP.

 

Pve players...rolling over pvp players in wow? When? Because pvp never really existed in wow untill arena came around (at least not pvp that mattered). I think if you pay $15 for a game a month... you can do w/e u want besides complain about not having pve gear if you do nothing but pvp and vice versa.

 

Also before you go on about "i dont have time to raid i have a job or w/e". Dont, you cant. This games endgame isnt that time consuming as long as you put some effort in.

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Pve players...rolling over pvp players in wow? When? Because pvp never really existed in wow untill arena came around (at least not pvp that mattered). I think if you pay $15 for a game a month... you can do w/e u want besides complain about not having pve gear if you do nothing but pvp and vice versa.

 

Also before you go on about "i dont have time to raid i have a job or w/e". Dont, you cant. This games endgame isnt that time consuming as long as you put some effort in.

 

I'd like to respond but it seems you haven't read my post. I can only suggest you re-read it and try to understand what it's actually about rather than conjure up something imaginary.

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Expertise exists for the sole reason of not allowing pve players to faceroll endgame content ... no more ... no less.

I've explained it in multiple threads and people can't seem to understand it. If you called expertise +xx endurance + xx main stat ... it would still behave the same way. People's fundamental misunderstand of simple math or critical thinking skills is staggering.

 

If you need to QQ about anything, QQ about:

 

a) how easy it is to obtain champion and centurion gear. (You're expected value just by doing dailies and weeklies is 5 champ tokens/2 centurion every week)

 

b) The gear disparity caused by a). If you're a new 50 and you're challenging someone that's been 50 for 2 weeks, he is a whole tier of gear higher than you. This is worse if you're not even 50 yet.

 

Here is some food for thought: ... if expertise did not exist, people would still faceroll you with the rakata gear. Stats wise for pvp ..... rakata = battlemaster because each piece for rakata has more endurance and more main stats.

 

...

 

TBH .. I don't even see problem because of a). Again it's so easy to gear up that by spending 1 hour a day for 21 days, you'll be more than pvp viable.

 

Also some people will complain about the randonness of the loot bags claiming to be extremely unlucky. Yes some poor saps (1 in 100) might not get a bag in 20 bags. This is an unfortunate side effect of variance. Take not the each bag is an independent event and this won't happen forever. God does not hate you and neither does bioware.

Edited by Orangerascal
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Expertise exists for the sole reason of not allowing pve players to faceroll endgame content ... no more ... no less.

I've explained it in multiple threads and people can't seem to understand it. If you called expertise +xx endurance + xx main stat ... it would still behave the same way. People's fundamental misunderstand of simple math or critical thinking skills is staggering.

 

If you need to QQ about anything, QQ about:

 

a) how easy it is to obtain champion gear. (You're expected value just by doing dailies and weeklies is 5 champ tokens/2 centurion every week)

 

b) The gear disparity caused by a). If you're a new 50 and you're challenging someone that's been 50 for 2 weeks, he is a whole tier higher than you. This is worse if you're not even

 

...

 

TBH .. I don't even see problem because of a). Again it's so easy to gear up that by spending 1 hour a day for 21 days, you'll be more than pvp viable.

 

Your post doesn't make sense at all.

 

What has Expertise got to do with facerolling endgame content for PvE players? PvE raiders can already faceroll everything endgame EXCEPT for PvP content.

 

It's to prevent PvE players facerolling PvP players even though they haven't PvP'ed much.

 

Also, the rest of your post is also basically a repeat of what I've said. Attaining good gear is trivial and has nothing to do with skill - but TIME. Making any sense of meaningful challenge and appropriate reward null and void.

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Your post doesn't make sense at all.

 

What has Expertise got to do with facerolling endgame content for PvE players? PvE raiders can already faceroll everything endgame EXCEPT for PvP content.

 

It's to prevent PvE players facerolling PvP players even though they haven't PvP'ed much.

 

Have you actually looked at the endgame gear?

 

I'll put it in maths so simple that anyone can understand:

PVP: Rakata gear = battlemaster gear + expertise.

PVE: Rakata gear > battlermaster gear

 

Because Rakata gear has:

1) more endurance

2) more main stats like willpower, strength ... ext.

 

PVP gear is so stupidly easy to get, more people get them to do the pve content. We've seen this in games like RIFT where gamers grinded R8 in order to do the endgame dungeon hammerknell.

 

Hence: 'Expertise exists for the sole reason of not allowing pve players to faceroll endgame content ... no more ... no less.'

 

PVE players will still faceroll undergeared pvp players because:

'PVP: Rakata gear = battlemaster gear + expertise.'

 

Also, the rest of your post is also basically a repeat of what I've said. Attaining good gear is trivial and has nothing to do with skill - but TIME. Making any sense of meaningful challenge and appropriate reward null and void.

 

My point was that for gear it's sooooooo trivial, that anyone can do it (1 hour/day).

 

Here's another food for thought. When everyone has this trivially easy to get gear all that would matter is 'skill'

Edited by Orangerascal
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PVP gear is so stupidly easy to get, more people get them to do the pve content. We've seen this in games like RIFT where gamers grinded R8 in order to do the endgame dungeon hammerknell.

 

Yes, which is why I'm saying it should be based on skill rather than time.

 

Here's another food for thought. When everyone has this trivially easy to get gear all that would matter is 'skill'

 

It's trivially easy to get PvP gear AT THIS TIME. In a few months, as a fresh level 50, it will be incredibly frustrating because you'll be playing against T2+ gear players with full on expertise.

 

That's the very core of the problem with expertise.

 

Sure, you'll eventually get it by losing match after match - but is that FUN?

 

No, and your skill won't matter squat - you just have to suck it up.

 

That's why I want the stat GONE and replaced by a better matching/rank system.

Edited by DKDArtagnan
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Sure, you'll eventually get it by losing match after match - but is that FUN?

 

Umm ..... no you won't as there will be people on your team with good gear and people on their team with bad gear. This is not 1v1 .. it's 8v8.

 

Again fundamental misunderstanding of basic probability. 3 months from now, there will still be new players and alts. People will still be winning and losing with an expected value of 6 matches for their dailies (the variance of this changes obviously with your level and gear, but not enough to pull your hair out).

 

Nothing will change. People will still do their dailies and get full champ/cent in 2 - 3 weeks.

 

Lets not even talk about how we can gear players using PVE. Full rakata ... no problem join our raid and if you're lucky you gear in 1 or 2 weeks.

Edited by Orangerascal
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Easy fix:

 

Step 1) Get rid of expertise.

 

Step 2) Make PvP rewards the same as PvE awards.

 

IS IT REALLY THAT DIFFICULT?

 

Yes, because there will always be superior items in either pve or pvp. Forcing competitive players to do both is wrong when being competitive in 1 area takes a huge time commitment already.

Even if items are comparable there will always be better itemized pieces in either pve or pvp unless you make them exactly alike, and the it will be a matter of which is easier to obtain. And having identical gear in both areas makes the game less exciting, might as well just remove gear from the game then. Gearing is an essential part in any MMO and is part of a progression path that drives competitive players even if it isn't there main goal.

 

Expertise is a better fix than resilience was in wow because it's a superior stat in pvp.

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Umm ..... no you won't as there will be people on your team with good gear and people on their team with bad gear. This is not 1v1 .. it's 8v8.

 

Ehm, so you think it's fun being on a team and not being able to contribute in a WZ?

 

You think it's fun encountering 50s in Ilum and during world PvP and performing like ****?

 

Great, in WZs, if you're lucky and the pathetic matching system provides 50s with equal gear - you can stand around and hope for the best.

 

Moronic, at best.

 

Again fundamental misunderstanding of basic probability. 3 months from now, there will still be new players and alts. People will still be winning and losing with an expected value of 6 matches for their dailies (the variance of this changes obviously with your level and gear, but no enough to pull your hair out).

 

You obviously don't mind being worthless in PvP during match after match or in world PvP. That's fine, and as such - I guess Expertise doesn't bother you.

 

It bothers me, though, as well as other players.

 

Nothing will change. People will still do their dailies and get full champ/cent in 2 - 3 weeks.

 

You seem to miss that I don't like this either.

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Pve players...rolling over pvp players in wow? When? Because pvp never really existed in wow untill arena came around (at least not pvp that mattered). I think if you pay $15 for a game a month... you can do w/e u want besides complain about not having pve gear if you do nothing but pvp and vice versa.

 

 

Vanilla Tarren Mill / Southshore runs would like a word with you.....as would the orginal AV :rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Ehm, so you think it's fun being on a team and not being able to contribute in a WZ?

 

You think it's fun encountering 50s in Ilum and during world PvP and performing like ****?

 

Great, in WZs, if you're lucky and the pathetic matching system provides 50s with equal gear - you can stand around and hope for the best.

 

Moronic, at best.

 

Did you not read that bioware was implementing rated warfronts .... do you just QQ without even knowing the goals or future plans of the game?

 

You'll be playing with players as good (or bad) as you soon enough.

 

 

You obviously don't mind being worthless in PvP during match after match or in world PvP. That's fine, and as such - I guess Expertise doesn't bother you.

 

It bothers me, though, as well as other players.

 

You seem to miss that I don't like this either.

 

What bothers me is people who do not understand that mathematically expertise does nothing. Like I said ... if I called it +xx str + xx endurance instead .... would you qq about it? Because in essence that's all it is.

 

Removing expertise would mean that bioware would increase the base stats ... because ... listen as this is important ... The endgame has been tuned for those stats. i.e. Bioware's endgame balancing is built around these items.

Edited by Orangerascal
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Ehm, so you think it's fun being on a team and not being able to contribute in a WZ?

 

You think it's fun encountering 50s in Ilum and during world PvP and performing like ****?

 

Great, in WZs, if you're lucky and the pathetic matching system provides 50s with equal gear - you can stand around and hope for the best.

 

Moronic, at best.

 

 

 

You obviously don't mind being worthless in PvP during match after match or in world PvP. That's fine, and as such - I guess Expertise doesn't bother you.

 

It bothers me, though, as well as other players.

 

 

 

You seem to miss that I don't like this either.

 

QFT

 

Why must the equal playing field be when everyone has the same gear after spending hundereds of hours getting said gear. Why can't it be right now, and whoever is the most skilled is victorious? Let PvP be PvP and not about who worked the hardest getting the most advantage in gear and not skill!

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QFT

 

Why must the equal playing field be when everyone has the same gear after spending hundereds of hours getting said gear. Why can't it be right now, and whoever is the most skilled is victorious? Let PvP be PvP and not about who worked the hardest getting the most advantage in gear and not skill!

 

If you don't want character and gear progression you should be playing an RTS or FPS game.

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Yes, because there will always be superior items in either pve or pvp. Forcing competitive players to do both is wrong when being competitive in 1 area takes a huge time commitment already.

Even if items are comparable there will always be better itemized pieces in either pve or pvp unless you make them exactly alike, and the it will be a matter of which is easier to obtain. And having identical gear in both areas makes the game less exciting, might as well just remove gear from the game then. Gearing is an essential part in any MMO and is part of a progression path that drives competitive players even if it isn't there main goal.

 

Expertise is a better fix than resilience was in wow because it's a superior stat in pvp.

Great, one set is easier to get, the other is still obtainable. Better than forcing people to do the work twice in order to optimize their character.

 

Also, I hate this mentality that Gear makes the MMO. I love games most once I've got everything I want/need and can just PLAY TO WIN, rather than playing to farm. I enjoy succeeding in raids. I enjoy winning a battleground. I don't enjoy repeating the same content with sub-par capabilities so that I can eventually do what I actually want to do.

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Did you not read that bioware was implementing rated warfronts .... do you just QQ without even knowing the goals or future plans of the game?

 

Now you're just being a contrarian and you have no argument.

 

We have no idea what they'll do in actuality - and a "rated warfront" could mean anything, and there's absolutely no reason to believe it has anything to do with the expertise stat.

 

Unless you have something rational as an argument, there's no point in this.

 

What bothers me is people who do not understand that mathematically expertise does nothing. Like I said ... if I called it +xx str + xx endurance instead .... would you qq about it? Because in essence that's all it is.

 

Do you really think I don't know what it does? Instead of assuming I'm an idiot based on nothing at all - how about taking into consideration what I'm actually having a problem with?

 

Removing expertise would mean that bioware would increase the base stats ... because ... listen ... it's been tuned for those stats. Bioware's endgame balancing is built around these items.

 

Which is exactly the problem that needs to be corrected.

 

Try making an effort to understand, rather than just being arrogant with no basis for it.

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Why can't you just take the time and get the pvp gear instead of complaining that pvp gear has an extra stat? Dying a few times in warzones isn't going to kill you. No pun intended.

 

Obviously, because of the reasons given already.

 

If you want to understand, and not just react, try to read the posts in the thread thoroughly and realise the alternatives.

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Now you're just being a contrarian and you have no argument.

 

We have no idea what they'll do in actuality - and a "rated warfront" could mean anything, and there's absolutely no reason to believe it has anything to do with the expertise stat.

 

Unless you have something rational as an argument, there's no point in this.

 

A rated warfront is pretty self-explanatory. The fact that you say 'it means anything' speaks volumes.

 

 

Do you really think I don't know what it does? Instead of assuming I'm an idiot based on nothing at all - how about taking into consideration what I'm actually having a problem with?

 

Which is exactly the problem that needs to be corrected.

 

Try making an effort to understand, rather than just being arrogant with no basis for it.

 

I understand your problem: It's that you're a casual who is probably level 30 and are getting facerolled by geared 50s. I know this, because if you were level 50 you would know how piss easy it is to get the expertise gear. I get it. And I understand your plight and feel for you.

 

Bioware has already addressed this issues.

 

1) Separation of low levels and level 50's

2) Rated warfronts at level 50.

 

In each each instance you should be playing people at your own level. In neither case is the expertise stat touched.

 

Here's a hint ... expertise is an easy way for bioware to cancel some of the nefarious 'power creep' in gear we've seen in other games. This is why nerf expertise threads are just a waste of forum bandwidth and I'm pretty tired do seeing scores of the same posts by people who don't understand it why it exists.

 

My goal here is to make people understand why it exists and stop stupid threads like this that show an absolute lack of critical thinking. Bioware spent a lot of time thinking about the expertise stat and the problems presented in other games because of problems like:

 

1) power creep

2) power raiders farming pvp gear for pve.

 

It's a pretty good solution. Alternatively they could have created a pve only expertise stat, but they know bosses don't mind getting nerfed ... people do.

 

 

P.S. Don't talk about skilled progression ... people who talk about skill are usually unskilled as stated by the Dunning–Kruger effect. (google it)

Edited by Orangerascal
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Nothing to discuss? You mean you have nothing to add? That's ok.

 

But that's pretty much what I'm suggesting.

 

Good players should get good gear, regardless of whether they play PvE or PvP.

 

Yes but you don't need to be a good player in PvP.

 

That is the fundamental breakdown of the argument. You can be rubbish at PvP and still reach the highest levels. The only way to counter that is to only reward successful players.

 

You can't do while Balance is ALWAYS an issue. While premade vs pugs is an issue.

 

You have to reward everyone in PvP because you don't control it.

 

You can only reward good players in PvE because you put the entire control of the encounter in the hands of the players and the developers. There are no other variables.

 

You don't end up playing with a hardcore PvP guild with players with 20 days played already, while you are in a PuG with people with 2 days played at a max.

 

Therefore you must reward everyone who PvPs or the PvP population would dwindle to nothing.

 

Then why should PvP players who aren't even very good, have access to equipment that requires a certain level of skill and co-ordination from PvE players?

 

Just doesn't make sense.

 

I will say this though, I don't understand why it is this way round.

 

Why not have expertise on PvE gear that only works against NPC characters.

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