SWTOR feels more like a theme park than a world

[Gestas]

Let me start off by saying that I do like SWTOR (at least more than any of the other new MMORPGs out there); and I plan on playing it for awhile. I'd give the game a 8.7 out of 10.

 

So what do I mean by a theme park? I mean game developers, like Bioware and Blizzard, are less interested in crafting virtual worlds and more interested in creating an experience where players can log on, press a button that automatically groups them up with strangers that they'll probably never talk to again, which then teleports them to some destination (a dungeon, battleground, etc.). Granted, the dungeon finder system hasn't found its way to SWTOR yet, but I'm betting it will eventually (and at least part of the community is asking for it). Further, questing in these theme parks constitutes mindlessly following quest indicators followed by reward collection, followed by using quick travel. Rinse and repeat until you're level capped. To make matters worse, when you die in these theme parks, practically nothing happens. In SWTOR, you lose a bit of durability and are given the option to respawn right where you died!

 

Before I move on, I'll just list some of the ways that the MMORPG genre has improved in an effort to appear less negative: better graphics, better sound, better UIs, smoother controls, less downtime, and less skill/group role overlap between classes. And in the case of SWTOR, voiced dialogue and conversation options.

 

That being said, I can't believe how far the MMORPG genre has fallen since Everquest (EQ).

 

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The thing that bothers me the most about the newer MMORPGs like SWTOR is the abuse of quick travel, quest indicators, instancing, and matchmaking (dungeon fingers, battlegrounds, etc.), as well as the lenient penalties for dying.

 

Instancing: Back during the golden age of MMORPGs, there was no such thing as "running dungeons," at least not in the way that MMORPG players do now. Running a dungeon in, Everquest for instance, meant running to a dungeon that was actually part of the static world (noninstanced), and then traversing the dungeon--exploring the dungeon--with a group. And while this went on, you'd more than likely run into other adventurers, who may or may not interact with your group in a negative or positive way. I think this is way more interesting than your group being cut off from the rest of the server population and in-game world by being teleported inside an instance of a dungeon. It's almost as though you and your group had fallen asleep and the dungeon is just a dream.

 

Instancing is especially a problem in SWTOR because of the way the world was constructed. It almost feels like you're on a train or rollercoaster. There are too many invisible barriers and areas that exist to prevent players from leaving a linear predetermined path. The instancing just adds to the claustrophobic and dead (you don't run across enough players) feeling.

 

Death penalty: Maybe my view on this subject is skewed from playing too much Diablo II Hardcore and Everquest, but I've always liked a good meaty death penalty. Otherwise, what's the point? Playing a MMORPG with a lenient death penalty is like playing a NES game with Game Genie. Some people may like that (I know my brother enjoyed cheating in NES games), but I don't. Good death penalties make rewards and progression all the sweeter. I'm not saying newer MMORPGs like SWTOR should adopt a permanent death system or anything that crazy, but I do think the penalty for dying should sting a little more than mere durability loss. SWTOR is out already, so I don't expect Bioware to change the penalty for dying. But they could create servers with alternate rule sets. Just a thought.

 

Quick travel: There's nothing wrong with quick travel per se. But there needs to be some restraint. Too much quick travel makes the world feel small and meaningless. Meaningless in that it is treated as merely an obstacle to your next quest rather than a journey. Personally, I'd like to go back to how EQ did things: having to run or ride to your destination! But I'm probably in the minority in this respect--so I'll just say I don't think players should have the option of teleporting to any discovered hub on their local map every 30 minutes. An easy fix for this would be to just increase the cool down for quick travel (the fleet pass is fine).

 

Quest indicators: Like the quick travel system, I think this is being abused. It's to the point where 90% of the time you don't even have to read (or listen to) quest text. All you need to do is bring up your map and follow the giant pulsating dots and circles (KILL 5 MONKEYS). I think this sort of thing contributes to the mindlessness of current MMORPGs.

 

Match making: By match making I mean any button that you can press that will automatically group you up with other players, and then teleport you to some destination. I see this as contra to some of the things that MMORPGs are supposed to be about; namely, community and adventuring. Fortunately, Bioware has decided to leave dungeon finder out of the game, for now. Unfortunately, I think it will inevitably make its way into the game in the future.

 

 

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I anticipate a tsunami of WoW fanboys and MMORPGs noobs that will try to set me straight by propagating the lie that WoW is popular because it has a lenient death penalty, dungeon finder, instanced dungeons, and quest indicators. That's wrong.

 

WoW didn't have any of the above when it was first released save for a lenient death penalty and instanced dungeons. The rest came later.

 

The reason why WoW is popular is because:

 

1. It was developed by a popular company.

2. WoW is based on a popular universe.

3. WoW was released during a time when EQ was in its decline, when people were fed up with SOE's antics.

4. Good controls and UI.

 

WoW is really just a dumbed down version of EQ with better graphics, UI, and controls.

[Vis_Vires]

For the msot part, I agree with you. Death penalties especially.

 

When I see a group mob I cant take out in SWTOR, I dont worry. I take one out, die, respawn, take another out, die, respawn take the last one out, job done.

 

No corpse runs, no xp loss, no nothing.

 

Dieing used to be a biggy in MMO's. They've been dumbed down so much, with hardly any death penalty, you may aswell remove death altogether.

[Vis_Vires]

Heck, I remember when levels used to count for something. My first time seeing a maxed level toon, i was like

 

I knew the time, effort and commitment it took to get there. I saw level 50's days after early release, and I didnt even bat an eyelid.

 

I remember seeing my first mount, my first FLYING mount, and thinking... one day. Everything is just far too quick/easy these days.

 

Its not SWTOR, its this generation of wow "clones" as a whole.

 

Still, things change. Some for better some for worse, but one things for certain, nostalgia wears rose tinted glasses.

[Woyto]

I used to play Neverwinter Nights on a private server for a long time. The death penalties were brutal, you lost most of your cash (70%), you lost experience levels (worth 10-12 hours of exping). It made the game so much fun.

 

I miss this in modern games.

[Vis_Vires]

Exactly.

 

Its like changing the law for speeding. You get caught speeding, and the fine is £0.01, $0.01 or whatever. The fine is so pathetic, nobody would care if they get caught or not, so would speed as much as they wanted to.

 

Likewise if the fine was £10,000, or $10,000, nobody would speed.

 

You need something in the middle, but as it stands, its pretty pointless having death in PvE at all...

[Avrose]

For the msot part, I agree with you. Death penalties especially.

 

When I see a group mob I cant take out in SWTOR, I dont worry. I take one out, die, respawn, take another out, die, respawn take the last one out, job done.

 

No corpse runs, no xp loss, no nothing.

 

Dieing used to be a biggy in MMO's. They've been dumbed down so much, with hardly any death penalty, you may aswell remove death altogether.

 

Maybe you should repair your gear once in a while and tell me there is no cost.

[GamerInDallas]

I mostly agree with you except on the death penalties. I quit EQ MOSTLY because the death penalty was too harsh. While I do miss wondering through those pitch black forests afraid that you were going to die at any moment, over-all I hated the death penalty in EQ.

 

I played for a year and never managed to get a character above 20th level even though i played every day. That's largely due to the fact that I explore the world and take my time savoring it rather than focusing on leveling as fast as possible. It's also because I'm introverted and tend to be a loner, even more so in an MMORPG than in real life. (Everquest really should have had the ability to post a notice in the tavern LFG.) Anyway, I soloed a wizard which was next to impossible in EQ. Incidently, I liked the wizard in EQ because they were able to use MAGIC and do things like teleport that mere mortals could not. And I played largely to earn the next combat spell such as invisiblity, wizard eye, and teleport.

 

But after a year, I got where I couldn't stomach spending 8 hours on a weekend grinding out a level just to lose it because of one combat mistake. (And as a wizard at 20th level just entering combat as a solo player was probably a mistake.) If you got killed a couple of times (which was REALLY easy to do) you could lose several days of mindless grinding to gain a level or two.

[Chromiie]

Maybe you should repair your gear once in a while and tell me there is no cost.

 

It's nothing you can easily make 200k credits a day just doing the Ilum heroics.

[Gestas]

Still, things change. Some for better some for worse, but one things for certain, nostalgia wears rose tinted glasses.

 

I thought that might be part of the reason too, until I resubscribed to EQ and played on one of their new servers: Fippy Darkpaw.

 

I actually had more fun playing EQ than I did playing WoW for all those years, or SWTOR.

 

My dream is for there to be a new EQ-type game with the polish of WoW. EQ wasn't perfect though. For instance, the downtime was ridiculous. That was by far the biggest problem I had with EQ.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Gestas

[Vis_Vires]

I thought that might be part of the reason too, until I resubscribed to EQ and played on one of their new servers: Fippy Darkpaw.

 

I actually had more fun playing EQ than I did playing WoW for all those years, or SWTOR.

 

My dream is for there to be a new EQ-type game with the polish of WoW. EQ wasn't perfect though. For instance, the downtime was ridiculous. That was by the biggest problem I had with EQ.

 

You and me both.

[GamerInDallas]

I could be happy with a death penalty where you lose an hour of your life every time you get killed. If you get killed two or three times in a row you lose a couple of hours. That's reasonable (and I think in EQ at the levels that mostly played at that's about what you lost and it made you fearful of dying. But once the penalty became more severe I canceled my subscription).

 

But a death penalty where you lose 8 to 16 hours of your life makes me realize that there are other forms of entertainment out there and a real world where I can do something OTHER than waste my time.

 

Incidently, I can't stand video games that have a severe death penalty, unless they allow me to save at any time. The absolute worst is like in Mass Effect where they force you to go through a massive cut scene every time you die on a boss battle that takes 50 tries to succeed. Sometimes you could hit space bar to get through the dialog but other times you couldn't and you couldn't save past the dialog that you had already heard 49 times. You would get killed, have to be bored for 5 mintues while you listen to the dialog that has already been burned into your brain mock you, and then get killed again just to start the whole thing over. I ended up not finishing GTA IV because I kept getting killed and having to drive 30 minutes across town to get back to the same place. Once or twice I can handle that, but when it starts getting to be 30 or 40 times, I find other things to do with my time.

[GamerInDallas]

My dream is for there to be a new EQ-type game with the polish of WoW. EQ wasn't perfect though. For instance, the downtime was ridiculous. That was by far the biggest problem I had with EQ.

 

I think MMORPGs have just gotten worse since EQ. So, I pretty much have to agree with you. Wow was basically just EQ2, but I only played it for a couple of months because it was less of a game than EQ.

 

The actual EQ2 failed in part because they wanted "realistic" graphics rather than interesting and entertaining graphics. The original EQ was a fantasy universe where the world was sureal. EQ2 was like being in real life: boring. That was one of the things that WoW REALLY got right.

[Vis_Vires]

Maybe you should repair your gear once in a while and tell me there is no cost.

 

Sure it costs to repair gear, which is a minor issue at present, but as you play more and more, and have a higher bankroll, you will get richer, and so even less of an issue.

 

Im not a dev, I dont know what the answer is, I just know as it stands, IMO, the penalty is a joke.

 

Even porting back to the main town would be something. Or possibly only being able to be rezzed by a PC. Then you know you have to go through the whole journey etc again. Makes you weigh up the risks better, and would encourage group play.

[Spoff]

I knew it wasn't a good sign when I first entered the world as a Bounty Hunter and when I looked at the map of Hutta much of it was blacked out.

 

I am not a fan of this progressive map opening business, just give me a massive free roaming planet and let me get on with it, I like to make my own mistakes;)

[Woyto]

Maybe you should repair your gear once in a while and tell me there is no cost.

 

Oh yeah there is a cost. At this point is 0.33% of my whole cash per death. And I don't even have that much credits.

[dronepilot]

Death penalty: Maybe my view on this subject is skewed from playing too much Diablo II Hardcore and Everquest, but I've always liked a good meaty death penalty. Otherwise, what's the point? Playing a MMORPG with a lenient death penalty is like playing a NES game with Game Genie. Some people may like that (I know my brother enjoyed cheating in NES games), but I don't. Good death penalties make rewards and progression all the sweeter. I'm not saying newer MMORPGs like SWTOR should adopt a permanent death system or anything that crazy, but I do think the penalty for dying should sting a little more than mere durability loss. SWTOR is out already, so I don't expect Bioware to change the penalty for dying. But they could create servers with alternate rule sets. Just a thought.

 

I agree with everything but this paragraph, The death Penalty is a flawed mechanic at the moment, such as using the slash stuck command, invokes that penalty too, much of the time you got stuck in a bugged terrain that has very bad passable area's, so either you send them a ticket saying your stuck in their game world between two rocks or a bridge, or you use the command. I really would like this to be re thought out actually.

[Syrak]

I love how people complain as if this game is their only option, it's hilarious.

 

You want more of a grind? There are only about a thousand Korean/Asian MMOs that will sate that appetite.

 

You want more space? Star Trek. More raiding? WoW. More freedom? Eve.

 

If you have real complaints about about parts of game that's fine but don't complain about a themepark MMO BECAUSE it's a themepark MMO. Just go find the game you actually want to play.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Syrak

[recsa]

I agree 100% to OP, IMHO, it's all WoW's fault, it had so much success that every other company out there is focussed on following that "theme park" trail, and SWTOR has just gone one step further in that direction, SWTOR is the "story mode" to its maximum degree.

 

Its not wrong, its not bad, its just that for people like me, that were already playing when the MMORPG genere started, the sandbox factor is the essence of the genere and looks like no prime company is working on that direction ... SWG with all its problems and unbalance issues was so muh fun because it was an open world for the players to build it

[Gestas]

You want more of a grind? There are only about a thousand Korean/Asian MMOs that will sate that appetite.

 

First of all. Every single MMORPG is a grind (at least according to you). To you, progression = grind.

 

Questing = grind. Running the same dungeons over and over = grind. Killing mobs = grind.

 

Regardless, I don't think anyone here said they wanted a grind... In fact, I never mentioned anything about leveling in my original post. Did you even read it?

 

If you have real complaints about about parts of game that's fine but don't complain about a themepark MMO BECAUSE it's a themepark MMO.

 

The reason why I'm complaining is to let Bioware know that there are still players like me that don't like theme park MMORPGs.

[Kayden]

Everyone knew this was a theme park mmo, that beeing said, they took the theme park too far imho.

 

I really don't hope that this is an example that future mmo's will follow, the initial success of mmo's were the virtual world game.

 

The original WoW were just the right amount of theme park imo, anymore and it would become too much (and it eventually did)

 

I think game developers thought that the more theme park gameplay you'd get, the better, and Ignored what made an mmo an mmo to begin with, the virtual world.

 

 

Obviously alot of players enjoy this game, and I can see why they would, adding the Theme park idea to mmo's did increase the potential playerbase, from the EQ type of mmo players, to just about any type of gamer there is, but as others have said before, it just plays too much like a single player game.

 

I'd honestly take the death penalties and everything that followed from L2, over this "wait 10 seconds and you'll get ressed here" game.

 

Heck I remember running naked for my gear in another game, having to run for 10 minutes with no gear whatsoever, through red mobs were a penalty, paying a few credits after dying several times is not.

 

 

 

I hope that SWTOR will be the last of it's kind, the world feels empty, exploration is non existant, world pvp is non existant, player interaction is entirely done by spamming the generel chat in the space station, I actually miss beeing trained by some jerk in an open dungeon while doing a quest....

[Darth_Vala]

SWG did the whole Sandbox thing beatifully. It also had great community at least the server I played on. But besides those the questing and leveling were terrible. I still remember running to a terminal and getting quests to go hunt Rancors. Then flying back after I had killed 100 Rancors or so. Then getting more quests from a terminal and going back and repeating.

 

Housing, crafting, society, RP. Those the game did very well and I hope SWTOR implements some of those elements eventually.

 

Player housing was added to Lotro quite some time after release. I hope they plan on adding more of these sandbox elements to this game as well sometime in the long run.

 

But yea I know it is built on purpose as themepark with heavy focus on storytelling and works quite nicely as such but I for one would love to have more social aspects such as player housing and player cities etc.

[Vis_Vires]

I love how people complain as if this game is their only option, it's hilarious.

 

You want more of a grind? There are only about a thousand Korean/Asian MMOs that will sate that appetite.

 

You want more space? Star Trek. More raiding? WoW. More freedom? Eve.

 

If you have real complaints about about parts of game that's fine but don't complain about a themepark MMO BECAUSE it's a themepark MMO. Just go find the game you actually want to play.

 

Its the only starwars one. I dont like star trek. I like lord of the rings, so I play lotro. I like star wars, so i play swtor. I enjoyed the everquest theme, so when EQ next or whatever comes out, I'll give that a go.

 

I choose which MMO to play because of what it is, I stay because I like it.

 

Obviously this is a theme-park MMO. And I am enjoying it. But I would enjoy it more if it was more of a sandbox, with some classic MMORPG features. But thats true for the majority of MMO's these days, lotro included.

 

I think players wanting more of a sandbox type mmo are in the minority. The wow generation generally speaking want things easier, quicker wrapped in a themepark package. Dev's are going to target the bigger market, obviously.

 

You cant please everyone. Personally, I'd like a game with the MMO feautures of EQ and SWG, the player numbers of WOW, NPC interaction and graphics of Skyrim. But I enjoy this game, so I'll settle with what I've got for now

[Kayden]

SWG did the whole Sandbox thing beatifully. It also had great community at least the server I played on. But besides those the questing and leveling were terrible. I still remember running to a terminal and getting quests to go hunt Rancors. Then flying back after I had killed 100 Rancors or so. Then getting more quests from a terminal and going back and repeating.

 

Housing, crafting, society, RP. Those the game did very well and I hope SWTOR implements some of those elements eventually.

 

Player housing was added to Lotro quite some time after release. I hope they plan on adding more of these sandbox elements to this game as well sometime in the long run.

 

But yea I know it is built on purpose as themepark with heavy focus on storytelling and works quite nicely as such but I for one would love to have more social aspects such as player housing and player cities etc.

 

Questing and leveling in SWG was a mess, but given the initial setup of proffessions, they couldnt really have done it like WoW or SWTOR, it was painfull, but atleast you could get most compbat proffessions maxed out within a few days, and get on with the core of the game.

[recsa]

SWG did the whole Sandbox thing beatifully. It also had great community at least the server I played on. But besides those the questing and leveling were terrible. I still remember running to a terminal and getting quests to go hunt Rancors. Then flying back after I had killed 100 Rancors or so. Then getting more quests from a terminal and going back and repeating.

 

Housing, crafting, society, RP. Those the game did very well and I hope SWTOR implements some of those elements eventually.

 

Yep, thats the point, SWG was a GREAT sandbox game and a TERRIBLE RPG game all at same time, also SOE getting crazy with ppl complaints about not being able to become jedi ... we all now how it ended up, i still got the macro-auto-grind prefessions software installed XDDDDDDDDD i went to sleep being Tailor and then wake up being Weaponsmith (almost).

 

Too bad i have not the money nor the resources to make a game picking the best elements from SWG and best ones from WoW or its clones, that would be an amazing game.

 

Again, SWTOR is great, different, but still great.

[Raani]

Maybe you should realize that the reason why WoW was so successful is because it was playable by people who aren't masochists and don't have the luxury of spending 16 hours a day playing a game (and losing those hours when their character dies).

 

For your benefit, here's the harsh reality: people who spend 16 hours a day/7 days a week playing MMOs don't have the buying power of people with jobs (except those with very affluent parents or those who inherited some money). You may be able to afford the initial game and subscription, but you will not spending much down the line on additional services. Also, your subscription isn't worth the loss of hundreds of thousands of other subscriptions from people who find hardcore games unpalatable.

 

Videogame companies are not in the business of making nerds happy; they are in the business of making money. You don't make massive profit by catering to a small demographic with limited buying power. You make your profit by catering to as many people as possible, including those with limited time to play.

 

Anyone who plays 2-4 hours a night isn't going to put up with death penalties which involve massive credit losses and/or level losses, being unable to complete a dungeon because the area is overcrowded or others are griefing, and spending the vast majority of their playtime running between quest hubs.

 

They want to log on and accomplish something, whether it be gaining 1-2 levels, finishing a quest area, successfully completing a dungeon, etc.

 

Since we derive our sense of accomplishment from real-life activities and we deal with enough setbacks and negativity at our jobs, we don't need pain and "work" mixed in our entertainment. If a game requires me to do ridiculous amounts of grinding for the smallest things or sets me back considerably for the smallest mistake, I'm not going to buy it. Period.

 

You're playing the wrong MMO, I'm afraid.