Sentinel's biggest problem: Ability Stuttering

[pherball]

I had to take Blade Storm out of my rotation, b/c I was losing DPS b/c of lost GCD's trying to get it to work.

[Nyjin]

Just want to chime in that this happens to me on my Sent as well. All the time.

 

If I had to say which abilities it happens to the most I'd say....

 

1. Zealous Strike

2. Sweep

3. Blade Storm

4. Master Strike

5. Force Kick

 

It really hampers my PvP experience...since it stops my post-Leap abilities like 75 percent of the time. Really annoying...

[Vibeth]

They know: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=141027

 

When it's fixed, I don't know, hopefully sooner than later...

 

For example, we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game. While we are currently looking at quality of life and usability improvements to increase the class' playability without compromising the unique aspects of the class, we don't have anything specific to announce just yet. We do however anticipate that some of the combat responsiveness improvements (AKA 'ability delay' - more on that here) being worked on by our engineering team will specifically aid both Marauder and Sentinel.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

Happens a crap tons for me in warzones when spamming, not so much in PvE though

 

Guys please read the opening post again.

 

The problem is not with Ability Delay but Ability STUTTERING. It's NOT the same thing. It's explained in the OP.

And no, Bioware didn't aknowledge this yet, afaik.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Vibeth

[Chessack]

I'll chime in as another person who has not seen this much. Once in a while (as in, once every 30 minutes or so) sure, yes, as a lag/latency issue, I have seen it on ALL my characters.

 

But frequently? No. I can't think of any time when I've had to hit Blade storm, blade storm, blade storm, blade storm, FINALLY IT WORKED!

 

Now, I have had cases where I hit it invalidly and got an error message ("Target is dead"). I have hit it when out of range and had it choke, of course. That's my own fault for not watching the mob leave my range to chase after T7 or something.

 

But I pretty well can click my buttons in the sequence I want, and the animation DOES happen and the attack DOES go off, the first time, almost every single time. Again, allowing for the very occasional occurrences of latency that happen in any game.

 

I don't think it could possibly have been happening to me over and over again and I wouldn't have noticed it. There's just no way... I am highly sensitized to things like that and if anything am more likely to think something like this happened when it didn't, than to think it didn't happen, when it did. Especially if it was happening a lot.

[Eijax]

when i spam my abilities, they dont fire in the same rate as i push the button!! 1!!11one

 

/sarcasm off

 

never seen this on my sent, commando or sith inq.

[Acanti]

So I've tried Focus and Watchman quite a bit. Just went Combat since I haven't touched it since 30.

 

I laughed so hard at how many times my character stuttered. I feel like blade storm especially gives me this problem. Trying to kill a healer at 21%! Can't dispatch, gotta get that Blade Storm off! *character derps it up for the next 2 seconds, healer heals up to 40%*

 

Wat.

[Ruskyandrei]

I'm inclined to believe that the people saying they've never experienced this don't pvp at all or so rarely they don't care much what happens when they do.

 

In pvp this issue is really bad, as your target moves a LOT and often causes your "instant" abilities to get cancelled during the animation which as you might imagine is quite nasty in pvp.

 

It is also annoying in some pve encounters.

 

Biggest problem I have with the class easily (second being the jedi feel which is missing, gief force push or something)

[Toweleeeie]

This should be the 1st fix for Sentinels.

 

When I posted about this a few days ago, someone said BW was aware and a fix was coming.

[Logisitcs]

Guys please read the opening post again.

 

The problem is not with Ability Delay but Ability STUTTERING. It's NOT the same thing. It's explained in the OP.

And no, Bioware didn't aknowledge this yet, afaik.

 

Can we use a bit of "logic" here... Why are they linking the two? You said it yourself in the OP that this is the biggest problem for Sent/Mara yet here Bioware is saying "Ability Delay" is what's causing so much problems for Sents/Mara, put 2 and 2 together and you get... it's the same thing!

 

You also said Ability Delay is along the lines of when you mount up, and then move as soon as the cast bar is finished; if that's ALL ability delay was, action being interrupted as soon as you move, WHY would BioWare come out and say "We do however anticipate that some of the combat responsiveness improvements (AKA 'ability delay' - more on that here) being worked on by our engineering team will specifically aid both Marauder and Sentinel." Does that make sense! How would that aid us!? Us being able to move our mounts as soon as the cast bar is done will "specifically" aid Sents!? In what way!? Problem solving and logic would tell you that they're referring to what you call Ability Stuttering, they're just lumping everything all into one name, Ability Delay, which by the way, Delay=Stuttering

Edited January 15, 2012 by Logisitcs

[BurntSushi]

Thing is though, it's probably very difficult to fix. While it is a very annoying factor, you can't just change the coding like that overnight and fix the bug. It may take a very long time, and it could actually be possible that it will never be entirely fixed - this is because you can't just change some of the codings which have gone behind this at this point.

 

You can be sure that BioWare dedicates a lot of resources to fixing this, but depending on the source of the problem, it may just be a very difficult task that takes a lot of time/cannot be entirely solved. I guess we all gotta be patient and see what happens.

 

The problem wasn't that difficult to create, though.

 

In earlier versions of the beta our animations were smooth, but now it is terrible. Not sure how to fix it, but they had better do it fast. I am getting frustrated with my class because of this.

 

It is hurting my DPS. In warzones I feel overall I am missing out on at least 100K in damage on my scorecard. Almost every time I use an ability minus the Rebuke that the OP stated it starts then stops.

 

I average between 150-250K in Warzones. I could most likely bring my average up to 250K-350K if this was fixed.

 

I am tired of working too hard to get my damage, kills and objectives. I have a Commando DPS alt and I am half my level and blow my Sentinel's damage away. Every other class is freaking easy mode compared to us.

[sexysolo]

The stuttering is very annoying. Like my previous post, I do agree it's a problem, however our DPS is already way too high anyways. I can live with a few stuttering issues.

[Vibeth]

Can we use a bit of "logic" here... Why are they linking the two? You said it yourself in the OP that this is the biggest problem for Sent/Mara yet here Bioware is saying "Ability Delay" is what's causing so much problems for Sents/Mara, put 2 and 2 together and you get... it's the same thing!

 

You also said Ability Delay is along the lines of when you mount up, and then move as soon as the cast bar is finished; if that's ALL ability delay was, action being interrupted as soon as you move, WHY would BioWare come out and say "We do however anticipate that some of the combat responsiveness improvements (AKA 'ability delay' - more on that here) being worked on by our engineering team will specifically aid both Marauder and Sentinel." Does that make sense! How would that aid us!? Us being able to move our mounts as soon as the cast bar is done will "specifically" aid Sents!? In what way!? Problem solving and logic would tell you that they're referring to what you call Ability Stuttering, they're just lumping everything all into one name, Ability Delay, which by the way, Delay=Stuttering

 

You can't know that ability delay is ability stuttering for a fact until Bioware confirms it's the same problem, which is the point of this thread, to get an answer from them on this particular problem.

[Chessack]

I'm inclined to believe that the people saying they've never experienced this don't pvp at all or so rarely they don't care much what happens when they do.

 

In pvp this issue is really bad, as your target moves a LOT and often causes your "instant" abilities to get cancelled during the animation which as you might imagine is quite nasty in pvp.

 

It is also annoying in some pve encounters.

 

 

But is this really, strictly speaking, "Ability Stutter?" Or is it being caused by the target moving "out of range"?

 

Last night I was teamed with a smuggler and we had our henchmen out. Though Kira and I were doing good DPS, I guess the smugger was doing more, because a couple of times, the elite Rakghouls we were fighting did some kind of super-leap and went after the smuggler. And yes, when that happened, some of my abilities sometimes failed or canceled (most of the time... master strike got interrupted halfway through). But I didn't think this was odd or even incorrect behavior... the guy moved out of my range, so of course my ability canceled.

 

But the rest of the night, I watched VERY carefully when soloing, etc. I never once, not a single time, pressed an ability and had it start, then stop, start, then stop, over and over like is being described. Heck not even once. Not one time. And this time I was looking out for it.

 

I do not PVP, so I can't speak for that. But this was not brought up as a PVP issue. It was raised as a general issue. And for those who are experiencing it, I am sure it really sucks and if I were, I might even stop playing Sentinel because it would be frustrating. However, pretending that "everyone has it" will not help us find and fix the problem for the people who do. If it's intermittent, or only happens under some conditions, or for some computers or some drivers or some video cards or what have you, then the devs need to know that. Claiming that everyone who hasn't seen this is either inobservant, tolerant of poor game performance, or "not doing something right" when they actually are NOT experiencing this is only going to make tracking the problem down even harder, if not impossible. The devs need factual, correct feedback.

 

That having been said, here is a little interesting question for people both experiencing and not experiencing it. I am a rarity among MMOs, I guess, because I am a mouse clicker. I hover my mouse over abilities and press the left button 99% of the time. I wonder if the clicking is doing something internal to the engine or UI that prevents this from happening. What about the rest of you? Perhaps keyboard users are suffering from this and mouse clickers aren't? And if that's the case then perhaps we have found out something that the devs can use to fix it.

 

But first we need a show of hands... How do you trigger your abilities? And do you experience it or not?

[Vibeth]

I think problem occurs to any person that plays this class "fast" aka presses ability fast to get the maximum speed of your rotation. That ofcourse isn't possible by mouse clicking so I believe that explains you not experiencing that problem.

 

PS: this has nothing to do with mobs going out of range.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Vibeth

[Ruskyandrei]

But is this really, strictly speaking, "Ability Stutter?" Or is it being caused by the target moving "out of range"?

 

Last night I was teamed with a smuggler and we had our henchmen out. Though Kira and I were doing good DPS, I guess the smugger was doing more, because a couple of times, the elite Rakghouls we were fighting did some kind of super-leap and went after the smuggler. And yes, when that happened, some of my abilities sometimes failed or canceled (most of the time... master strike got interrupted halfway through). But I didn't think this was odd or even incorrect behavior... the guy moved out of my range, so of course my ability canceled.

 

But the rest of the night, I watched VERY carefully when soloing, etc. I never once, not a single time, pressed an ability and had it start, then stop, start, then stop, over and over like is being described. Heck not even once. Not one time. And this time I was looking out for it.

 

I do not PVP, so I can't speak for that. But this was not brought up as a PVP issue. It was raised as a general issue. And for those who are experiencing it, I am sure it really sucks and if I were, I might even stop playing Sentinel because it would be frustrating. However, pretending that "everyone has it" will not help us find and fix the problem for the people who do. If it's intermittent, or only happens under some conditions, or for some computers or some drivers or some video cards or what have you, then the devs need to know that. Claiming that everyone who hasn't seen this is either inobservant, tolerant of poor game performance, or "not doing something right" when they actually are NOT experiencing this is only going to make tracking the problem down even harder, if not impossible. The devs need factual, correct feedback.

 

That having been said, here is a little interesting question for people both experiencing and not experiencing it. I am a rarity among MMOs, I guess, because I am a mouse clicker. I hover my mouse over abilities and press the left button 99% of the time. I wonder if the clicking is doing something internal to the engine or UI that prevents this from happening. What about the rest of you? Perhaps keyboard users are suffering from this and mouse clickers aren't? And if that's the case then perhaps we have found out something that the devs can use to fix it.

 

But first we need a show of hands... How do you trigger your abilities? And do you experience it or not?

 

The point is that instant abilities should only be validated once, when you are firing them off.

 

This is the crux of the issue for me at least. If I hit my Zealous Strike button when it is available, as an instant ability it has to go off regardless of what happens during the next 0.5s that the animation plays. This is currently simply not so.

 

The same applies to many other strikes and is a considerable issue that HAS to be addressed.

[darkonnis]

Happens all the time. I notice aswell (as marauder atleast) that the animation gets to a certain point and restarts or jutters. You dont need to press the button again but its almost like it stumbles a bit and the damage/cd is delayed. Only by 0.1s but over 10 abilities thats a second, giving i probably do 20 - 30 a fight sometimes per mob and a hell of a lot more for bosses, its turning into 10s of seconds and eventually minutes. My assassin never had this problem. So i dont believe it would be a huge fix. Both classes rely heavily on instcast abilities.

[Chessack]

The point is that instant abilities should only be validated once, when you are firing them off.

 

This is the crux of the issue for me at least. If I hit my Zealous Strike button when it is available, as an instant ability it has to go off regardless of what happens during the next 0.5s that the animation plays. This is currently simply not so.

 

And I'm telling you that it DOES work instantly for me.

 

So clearly it is not a universal bug. I'm not saying it's not a bug or it's not a bug FOR YOU and for many others. But it's not universal.

 

So why must we keep arguing that people who say they don't have it somehow "don't know what they are talking about"? Why don't we instead see if we can find out what is causing it for some, maybe most, but not all?

 

How about my suggestion? Who among you is a mouse clicker and a keyboarder, and do both types have the problem or only one type? Maybe this is a hint at the cause that the devs can use, but we won't know if we keep talking past each other.

[Aurbere]

I've noticed ability stuttering as a guardian as well. If this is just for the knight I can see why people call for a buff for knights.

[Vibeth]

And I'm telling you that it DOES work instantly for me.

 

So clearly it is not a universal bug. I'm not saying it's not a bug or it's not a bug FOR YOU and for many others. But it's not universal.

 

So why must we keep arguing that people who say they don't have it somehow "don't know what they are talking about"? Why don't we instead see if we can find out what is causing it for some, maybe most, but not all?

 

How about my suggestion? Who among you is a mouse clicker and a keyboarder, and do both types have the problem or only one type? Maybe this is a hint at the cause that the devs can use, but we won't know if we keep talking past each other.

 

Like I said already, I believe this pretty much happens only to fast players (aka spamming ability to get max rotation speed). And somehow with spamming the ability gets stuck.

 

So for a clicker, who can't execute abilities fast enough one after another, this doesn't occur (as much or at all). This is my explanation atleast.

 

 

There you go lads, a video of 3 cases of ability stuttering in slow motion. Watch in 720p enlraged window so you can better see what's going on. You can see my connection is fine and I asure you my PC is more than capable of running SW:ToR.

 

Ability Stutter video:

Edited January 15, 2012 by Vibeth

[Ruskyandrei]

Very nice clip, exactly what I am experiencing, thank you

[devilinhell]

Haha, watching the video is funny. I am quite certain that I'm one of those rare keyboard Sentinel players, with extensive gameplay experience, who does not suffer from this particular problem. The one that I get frustrated by is when pressing a skill button and it doesn't 'pop' or go off, the button color changes while being pressed and then goes back to it's original state. There is no animation or stuttering, it's just like squeezing the skill button. I can press the button multiple times and it may go off after 4 or 5 squeezes, but sometimes it won't go off no matter what. That's when I try using another skill, then go back and try to squeeze it off again, which sometimes works or may continue being 'unpoppable'.

 

As a side note, I recall reading in another thread that a beta player mentioned how most of these problems/bugs only started happening after Bioware started implementing the Ability Queue system. So, I disagree with some people who are saying that it's a huge issue to reprogram the entire skill and animation system... they really just need to remove the Queue. I have mine set to zero, but of course the problem still persists.

[Vibeth]

Haha, watching the video is funny. I am quite certain that I'm one of those rare keyboard Sentinel players, with extensive gameplay experience, who does not suffer from this particular problem. The one that I get frustrated by is when pressing a skill button and it doesn't 'pop' or go off, the button color changes while being pressed and then goes back to it's original state. There is no animation or stuttering, it's just like squeezing the skill button. I can press the button multiple times and it may go off after 4 or 5 squeezes, but sometimes it won't go off no matter what. That's when I try using another skill, then go back and try to squeeze it off again, which sometimes works or may continue being 'unpoppable'.

 

As a side note, I recall reading in another thread that a beta player mentioned how most of these problems/bugs only started happening after Bioware started implementing the Ability Queue system. So, I disagree with some people who are saying that it's a huge issue to reprogram the entire skill and animation system... they really just need to remove the Queue. I have mine set to zero, but of course the problem still persists.

 

I have my queue set to 0.0 as well but it doesn't help at all. As for your problem, I'd call that ability stuttering too (just without animation showing) - same as spamming Overload Saber when in mid-air/landing stage: no animation, but I had to press the skill 4x before it initiated (you can see it in the video).

Edited January 15, 2012 by Vibeth

[solo_snipa]

ive levelled my sentinel to rank 37. and no stuns,snares,slowdowns work. noone else seems to be having the same problem. and bioware arent doing anything to fix it.

i too have the same problem with blade storm and all my other hard hitting moves.

 

i recently changed tree to "watchmen". i have a passive ability that allows "cautirize" to slow targets and increase damage. still doesnt work. leg slash doesnt slow them down.

on top of that "oppurtinistic strike" is useless because the target has to be slowed. dont even get me started on pommel strike!

 

force leaps is meant to stun for 2 seconds i think it is. never works either. i wish i never levelled a sentinel now because we just keep getting ignored by bioware.

anyone else having similiar issues to me?

 

p.s (and no its because i cant play my class right. or im useless in pvp as people keep saying) the sentinel is majorly bugged!

[Chessack]

So for a clicker, who can't execute abilities fast enough one after another, this doesn't occur (as much or at all). This is my explanation atleast.

 

I execute the abilities as soon as they are ready and it is time to execute them. Sometimes I have the mouse hovering over something and the instant the cooldown is over I re-click it. Even then I don't see stutter.

 

Also with higher speed, you should see error messages that "the ability is not ready yet" or something, but not see the attack start, stop, start, stop. So I'm not convinced that "speed" is necessarily the cause.

 

Also, if speed of clicking/pressing is the issue why don't ALL classes suffer equally from this?

Edited January 15, 2012 by Chessack

[Vibeth]

Also, if speed of clicking/pressing is the issue why don't ALL classes suffer equally from this?

 

Beats me. It's not for us to investigate this anyway. The point of the thread is to alarm Bioware of this, as I believe this is not connected to the same "Delay/responsivness" issue they mentioned they are fixing.

 

Seeing how many experience this, this should be handled as soon as possible, as it really is quite gamebreaking.