Tanking Tips - Tanking Isn't Broken

[Calgamer]

This isn't WoW. We're not expected to agro every mob and keep it plastered to us like we're made of glue.

 

I just gave this example in another thread, but I'l post it here as well.

 

Let's say you have a 6 pull. 1 elite, 2 strongs, and 3 standard enemies. DON'T try to agro them all. Tell your DPS to kill the standard enemies first. Even in hardmodes, standard enemies only have about 5k health. This is 2-3 hits for most DPS. Your two DPS'ers can burn down 3 standard enemies in less than 5 seconds.

 

That leaves the 2 strongs and the elite. Most classes have some form of CC. I know agents and marauders get droid stuns, and mercs get another long stun. You're bound to be running with at least 1 CC. Use it! That leaves 2 enemies. 2 enemies is more than reasonable for a Jugg tank. Kill the strongs first, and then the elite.

 

It's really very simple. If you're trying to agro the standard enemies, you're already bound to fail. Often time they're ranged and spread out. Don't worry about them. And yes, they do a lot of damage in hard modes. I'm fully aware. But at the speed they die, they won't have much time to do any damage. And keep in mind they're susceptible to any abilities that stun weak or standard enemies.

 

Don't try to be a hero, and don't pretend you're really playing your WoW warrior. This game and it's mechanics are all very different. Mark if you have to. Call out CC targets. It's what tanks did for years in various games. I don't know why all of a sudden the old way of tanking is now the hard way of tanking.

[Belwyn]

Your situation, is pretty much not valid when an assassin or mercenary could tank all those mobs at the same time. The juggernaut is broken and needs a lof of fixing, the more you try to convince yourself nothing is wrong, the longer it will take to bioware to do some serious fixes to the class.

 

I got my Jugg to 50 immortal, it was gimped it sucked. I made an assassin darkness I'm 50 now and it's OPed compared to the Juggernaut.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Belwyn

[Calgamer]

If assassins and powertechs are truly that much better (I don't know because I'm always the tank), then the nerfs and buffing will come and go for the life of the game. At least for right now, there are more than enough ways to effectively tank a group of mobs as a Jugg, even if it's not on par with other classes.

[dorkvid]

Your situation, is pretty much not valid when an assassin or mercenary could tank all those mobs at the same time. The juggernaut is broken and needs a lof of fixing, the more you try to convince yourself nothing is wrong, the longer it will take to bioware to do some serius fixes to the class.

 

I got my Jugg to 50 immortal, it was gimped it sucked. I made an assassin darkness I'm 50 now and it's OPed compared to the Juggernaut.

 

Please, do tell how the juggernaut is broken. I'm having an awesome time at lvl 50 and great success with mine in both PvE and PvP and for the life of me I can't find how it's so broken it needs immediate fixing

[DyoT]

Please, do tell how the juggernaut is broken. I'm having an awesome time at lvl 50 and great success with mine in both PvE and PvP and for the life of me I can't find how it's so broken it needs immediate fixing

 

I totally agree with that - I am very pleased with tanking a lvl 50 Immortal jug. Unless DPS starts attacking different mobs simultaneously or pulling ahead of me I can aoe tank all the packs without problems - of course this requires target switching and using a lot of abilities but this differs a good tank from the crapy one who is used to 2-3 button wow tanking.

Just make your DPS kill mobs in a sequence and not to aoe in the very beginning of the fight.

[Ethrakaal]

The way it's broken is that people want to tank 'Everything!'. Because they can't, they sulk.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but you don't need too. Plain and simple as that. As soon as you learn and accept that, the better your tank will be.

 

Being a Jugg tank is not easy at times, granted. It's a hell of a lot more fun though :-)

 

And it's amazng how I have tanked most things in SW:TOR and never had a problem (Maybe the good ole learning curve troubles ;-) ). Could be that my group and I work as a..... wait for it...... team! Everyone is important and has a job to do. The tank/healer is no longer the most important class in a group now. We are all equal, we are one... we are not World of Warcraft, EQ etc etc... we are Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

So please do enlighten us.... Show us the errors of our ways while we continue to rock at tanking.

 

I mean our status is as follows:

 

AoE Tanking abilities - Limited

Survivability - Excellent

Burst Threat on a target - Excellent (Really handy against snipers, hehe)

CC - Hmmm, well do don't have any long ones... but I can easily shut elites down while I tank them.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Ethrakaal

[Cassp]

Just chain pull everything with no cc, much easier.

[Samurro]

I agree with the fact that most tanks don't seem to grab: Just tank the dangerous enemies and rely on your team to nuke/cc the smaller mobs, if they don't its not your fault...

 

BUT I don't think that marking mobs is a must or should be, because its a time waste and is no fun! So if the game requires you to mark your target, which SWTOR doesn't, its a flaw in the game mechanic, imo.

[Xanxari]

yea and i can see most ppl dont know how much better a BH or assassin is compare to a juggernaut, comeon wake up ppl.

 

do you even realise that with a broken spec like 14 Immortal and 27 vengence you got most better migitation? no i dont think many of you do....

 

our tanking tree need 25% damage increase, we need some better full 360 AoE attacks to hold agro better single target we are okey if we get a small damage buff, but our *********** tanking tree is broken, we can get 3 abilities in vengence that are *********** awesome, and for the love of god i dont know why they are in the vengence tree at all.........

 

 

 

they promised they would give juggers some love they knew its surpar to the other classes in beta, and ppl are still waiting!

[GySgt_Crusty]

I will undoubtedly get flamed for this post, but I can not let it go. A tank's job is to take the brunt of the damage while the healer heals him and the dps does damage. That is why they are adequately named in accordance with their group function. This is generally speaking as there are always specialty fights where you might have, say, a mage tank. Mercs, Assassins and juggs have a different style of tanking, by design. If I was running an encounter and I had the option of having a merc tank or a jug tank that has already said they don't tank ranged, I would take the merc tank, as I am sure most would. Having said that, players inevitably develop work-arounds when they don't have the ideal tools for the situation. Not tanking a mob is an option, although it wouldn't be the most favorable. Glass cannons are just that, glass. Every time that a dps class has to take endurance armor or some resistance over their damage stat, it is a dilution of their primary function -- dealing the most damage possible (yes I understand situtaion in some special encounters require additional stats). Once game mechanics start creating hybrids, they lessen the advantages of those differences among roles. The developers always cry "in the name of balance" as they swing the nerf bat. Because the premise is that all tank classes, although mecahnics are different, are equally as viable in each encounter. effective combat range/mobility issue with Juggs has been recognized by the developers and they have promised to adjust it http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=160089

 

Like I said, I was being civil and hope replies are as well.

 

Crusty

[Coiffio]

I tried to like my juggernaut, i really did. I wouldnt go so far as to say it's broken, but it is annoying. What annoys me most is that too many enemies in this game have pushback attacks which they seem to be able to fire off every few seconds. It just kills the fun factor when I have to constantly run forward again if my gap closer is on cooldown, and it seems I'm out of the fight more than I care for. Meanwhile my shield tech can just sort of stand a few feet away and only has to move forward when rocket punch is ready to fire.

[Ethrakaal]

I will undoubtedly get flamed for this post, but I can not let it go. A tank's job is to take the brunt of the damage while the healer heals him and the dps does damage. That is why they are adequately named in accordance with their group function..............Like I said, I was being civil and hope replies are as well.

 

Crusty

 

Everyone has their opinions, but I don't believe in this Glass type thinking. In FP, Tanks take the 'hard hitting' mobs and can leave the normal/strong ones. If not CC can be used and tanks can take strongs while dps take normals.

 

I mean, did dps require a tank and healer to complete normal quests with normal mobs of 3 to 4?

 

I am sure they didn't.

 

Granted, if you have a pack of 4+ elites, then a Jugg has to worry and use some skills.

 

However, even our guild Sin tank doesn't tank normal mobs. There is no point! Most groups I have come across, I have only ever had to tank a maximum of 2-3 mobs at a time and we manage just fine.

 

In fact my only issue with Jugg's is that damn ability bug where abilities don't activate when selected.

[Calgamer]

Everyone has their opinions, but I don't believe in this Glass type thinking. In FP, Tanks take the 'hard hitting' mobs and can leave the normal/strong ones. If not CC can be used and tanks can take strongs while dps take normals.

 

I mean, did dps require a tank and healer to complete normal quests with normal mobs of 3 to 4?

 

I am sure they didn't.

 

Granted, if you have a pack of 4+ elites, then a Jugg has to worry and use some skills.

 

However, even our guild Sin tank doesn't tank normal mobs. There is no point! Most groups I have come across, I have only ever had to tank a maximum of 2-3 mobs at a time and we manage just fine.

 

In fact my only issue with Jugg's is that damn ability bug where abilities don't activate when selected.

 

Pretty much this. There is NO point in tanking the small mobs. They die so fast, it's not worth the effort. Just make sure your DPS know to kill them first, and the problem is solved.

[RG_jhanlec]

If assassins and powertechs are truly that much better (I don't know because I'm always the tank), then the nerfs and buffing will come and go for the life of the game. At least for right now, there are more than enough ways to effectively tank a group of mobs as a Jugg, even if it's not on par with other classes.

 

At the moment, most nightmare raid teams use PT as main tank and sin as OT if possible. Jugg can fill in for either but are usually sideline for absent tanks... We can still tank Nightmare modes fine, but not as easily and requires entire raid to do more to make up for what Jugg lacks compared to PT or sin.

 

Right now if you use a Jugg as MT everyone has to be ever vigilant of their threat, because its easy to pull off a Jugg. Everyone has to be very careful not to start DPSing too hard too fast because it just doesnt work. And if you are trying to down nightmare bosses and are losing to enrage timer, than having a PT that itself does more DPS, plus holds agro better allows people to go to town with no fear of pulling agro unless the boss agro resets.

 

Jugg is broken because of this. We are literally build for MT role as Immortal spec, but are half as effective as PT and Sin.

[Belwyn]

Pretty much this. There is NO point in tanking the small mobs. They die so fast, it's not worth the effort. Just make sure your DPS know to kill them first, and the problem is solved.

 

Yeah exept try tanking, the hard flashpoints or operations wiht a jugg where everything is elite and see how it goes. You will get constant group wipes for your innability to keep the aggro of all the mobs.

 

There is a reason why when groups get together for directive 7, they specifically say they want a Assassin or Bounty Hunter tank. Instead of trying to make up excuses for the Juggernaut, roll an assassin get to 50 and see the improvement for yourself.

 

At the moment, most nightmare raid teams use PT as main tank and sin as OT if possible. Jugg can fill in for either but are usually sideline for absent tanks... We can still tank Nightmare modes fine, but not as easily and requires entire raid to do more to make up for what Jugg lacks compared to PT or sin.

 

Right now if you use a Jugg as MT everyone has to be ever vigilant of their threat, because its easy to pull off a Jugg. Everyone has to be very careful not to start DPSing too hard too fast because it just doesnt work. And if you are trying to down nightmare bosses and are losing to enrage timer, than having a PT that itself does more DPS, plus holds agro better allows people to go to town with no fear of pulling agro unless the boss agro resets.

 

Jugg is broken because of this. We are literally build for MT role as Immortal spec, but are half as effective as PT and Sin.

 

Exactly... This says it all, thouhg not entirely true, some groups like the Assassin to be main tank. Depending on the instance you are running and the situation.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Belwyn

[macnernie]

I feel better after reading this thread. I've spent an entire day with my 50 Juggy trying HM flashpoints and having one HELL of a time holding aggro and getting blamed for the inevitable group wipe when we lack the DPS to put the Champion down quick and he enrages. Everyone seems to think it should be no problem for me to hold aggro of 2 champion mobs, interrupt the main target, deliver damage with my puny output .

 

So am I fighting a losing battle from jump with my Juggy? Or do I just need to realize I'm not suited for this line of work? I am seriously open to the suggestion that I'm not the best damn tank in the world. But I also think the tools I am given are inadequate to the expectations of my fellow group mates.

 

Which is true?

[Teioh_White]

I've tanked all the 50 HM as a Jugg, so it's possible. We're not as good at it as PT, as they flat out do more damage, and the ability to do anything at range means less wasted time avoiding mechanics. Not sure about Sin, never actually seen one tanked. But you can get it done, but as mentioned, need the group to work with you. CC the extra strongs, tag the elite, have the DPS aim for the Normals first.

 

My guild also uses a PT to MT for nightmare, leaving me on the sidelines. Can't blame em, he flat out does it better. Really question why everyone things this a L2P issue. Do they really think BW got class balance perfect out the gate?

[Xanxari]

yep same goes for me i MT 4/5 EV nightmare mode, but after we got our PT up to 50 and in some okey gear he's the MT and does the job 5 times better then me!

 

 

we got problems when it comes to Tanking, i would say our dps is fine in Vengence and Rage, Vengence dps is good PvE and at Single target and crap at AoE, Rage is good for PvP and have some nice burst with smash. but tanking lack AoE threat and damage to hold the agro, hell our immortal tree is broken if you ask me!

[dorkvid]

At the moment, most nightmare raid teams use PT as main tank and sin as OT if possible. Jugg can fill in for either but are usually sideline for absent tanks... We can still tank Nightmare modes fine, but not as easily and requires entire raid to do more to make up for what Jugg lacks compared to PT or sin.

 

Right now if you use a Jugg as MT everyone has to be ever vigilant of their threat, because its easy to pull off a Jugg. Everyone has to be very careful not to start DPSing too hard too fast because it just doesnt work. And if you are trying to down nightmare bosses and are losing to enrage timer, than having a PT that itself does more DPS, plus holds agro better allows people to go to town with no fear of pulling agro unless the boss agro resets.

 

Jugg is broken because of this. We are literally build for MT role as Immortal spec, but are half as effective as PT and Sin.

 

Having personally tanked 4/5 Nightmare with no threat issues, I really question the truth to your statements

[RenTheGod]

Yes juggs need AoE threat help. Though we are not Broken. Broken = Unplayable.

 

I've MTed 4/5 HM EV without any issues. I do notice errors and what could help us keep AoE threat. Yes Sin and PT tanks do have it easier for sure. Like the OP said. Just focus on the threat of the pack (Elite > Strong > Norms) Norms hit for nothing and die in about 1-2 seconds. I don't even bother picking them up anymore unless that's all there is or every other major threat is dead.

Edited January 14, 2012 by RenTheGod

[Aikagi]

We pretty much have better survivability, but it doesn't really make up for our lesser damage/threat. Especially when you add in the countless bugs the class faces, such as ability delays and the GCD defence issue. That's not to say we can't tank, I've main tanked through Operations and HMs fine, but I don't doubt the other two classes could potentially do a better job.

[macnernie]

I guess my frustration lies with the perception of our abilities by outside classes. I've completed several HM flashpoints with no problem tanking. I guess I had a good group who kept me healed while dealing enough damage to take down the Champions ASAP. But it seems when there isn't enough DPS in the group is where I get blamed for our inevitable death. There have been a few times where we wipe over and over because of enraged Champions. I tend to believe its a lack of DPS and not necessarily my fault as the tank.

 

Is this just isolated to me? (And thus maybe I am the problem) Or are other tanks having this issue and feeling the frustration. So much frustration that I am now going to level up a glass cannon so I can sit back and have 1 responsibility instead of 6.

[Farisx]

The class is somewhat broken. It is not broken in the way that it can't do its job at all in 50 and hard modes. You can tank with a juggernaut and you can keep agro on most mobs, however other classes can potentially do that easier.

 

Juggernaut may have better mitigation than PT/SA, yet I am somewhat unsure what percentage of incoming damage is suseptible to shield/defense at all, because "yellow" damage cant be mitigated, yet not all special attacks are yellow.

 

Juggernaut feels kinda broken in terms of talents. The defense tree does perform at maximum on par to the vegeance tree in terms of mitigation.

 

Personally I find the 20% reduction to all damage when charging/intervening better than sonic barrier 1000 damage absorb. And the damage gain from going 14/27 results in better single target threat. In Addition you gain additional 4% endurance and additional 4% damage reduction to kinetic/energy damage from vengeance compared to immortal.

 

That feels broken. To be tanking with an offensive spec and performing that way better in both terms of damage reduction and threat/damage is simply wrong.

[Xanxari]

yea as im saying, its not like we cant do the job, but a PT tank does 25% more damage then us, got 4 AoE attacks, with CDs.

 

as a MT tank in EV nightmare 4/5 8man, the packs are easy to CC and KB, the problem is 16man where 90% of the trash are immune to CC and KB, and they do way more damage then on 8man.

 

im sorry to say this but the only way a juggernaut tank will tank atm. is when you have no other tank showing up, and even then most raids will just wait a day for the other tanksd to get back online.

 

 

and yes i have MT nightmare mode 4/5 HM 4/5, normal 5/5, and iv seen how a PT tank MT, EV normal, hardmode, nightmare he got it 5 times as easy as we do, more damage = better threat, haveing 4 AoE abilities to use even if they are on CD = a better initial threat then a jugger can ever get, single target they are doing more damage then us = better threat.

we need some love i dont get why you are defending this class when everyone in this game know that a juggernaut is surpar to any other tank... hell even bioware know they are, they more or less said that in Beta!

[Belwyn]

Juggernaut may have better mitigation than PT/SA, yet I am somewhat unsure what percentage of incoming damage is suseptible to shield/defense at all, because "yellow" damage cant be mitigated, yet not all special attacks are yellow.

 

This is not necessarily true, yes armor rating might be a bit higher. But an Assassin can increase shield chance with skills by 15% on top of the 15% already given by the tanking stance.

 

Also dark charge offers a heal, every 1.5 seconds which in my mind is a lot better than the extra 4% in armor rating that the juggernaut gets. Also harnessed darkness which heals you for 10-12% of your total HP and can be used every 15-25 seconds. The lv 50 skill the assassin gets it's a 2 minute cooldown that increases the healing done by 300% and heals you instantly for 10% of your hp, which is almost as good as using channel the force the 20 minute conpanion cooldown. While the jugg gets a crappy 20% cover ability and 2 3 minute cooldowns.

 

The assassin relies on on 4 cooldowns, one which increases shild chance by 15% has a 12 second cooldown 8 charges and lasts 20 seconds. Another one which reduced all incoming damage by 50% and has a 2 minute cooldown, another which reduces all force and tech damage by 100% and has a 45 second cooldown and the one I mentioned above which increases healing done by dark chage by 300% with a 2 minute cooldown.

 

Assassin also get's a hate generating AOE ability, with a 7 second cooldown, you got saber charge and lacerate with no cooldown and spammable for 3 AOE total. On top of it you also get your regular taunt and AOE Taunt and you also have ranged attacks not to mention force pull which help pull mobs to you, when they are attacking the healer or dps, or to pu them all together for your AOE. Youre a ranged and melee hybrid and also do a lot more dps than the Juggernaut does, which also helps keep aggro. Also 2 CC's a hold, force slow and a DOT.

 

All of this make the assassin a better tank, and it's why I am so frustrated that I wasted valuable time getting a juggernaut to 50, just to have to reroll.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Belwyn