DrShazzam Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Before I begin, this is all from my PvP perspective, but I am very interested in hearing PvE perspectives. I was wondering if it would be possible to make Jet Charge (and the Republic mirror) baseline, and move grapple to the 21 point shield tech talent. I feel that as a class we need an effective gap closer, and grapple is not effective. Grapple has its great moments, and from what I understand it is an awesome tanking ability; for dps though, grapple is ineffective because it only works on targets with no resolve, and it's quite buggy. Also, there are moments grapple can't be used for strategic reasons. For instance, in Huttball I may not want to pull someone to me, because I could be bringing the ball closer to my goal line or bringing an opposing dps in range of my ball carrier. I think some changes would be necessary, but it could be made similar to force leap. Drop all the added effects, increase the cool down to 30 seconds, leave only the base ability. As an added bonus, I've seen a few complaints that the Bounty Hunter rarely uses his iconic jet pack, this gives Bounty Hunters another baseline talent utilizing the jet pack, and the whole charge in general is a staple of the Bounty Hunter image. I'm curious what other people's opinions are on this idea, and whether you guys and gals think it's feasible. Edited January 13, 2012 by DrShazzam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natrol Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This would actually make a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chainsawsamurai Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) This would actually make a lot of sense. It makes a **** ton of sense. Not just for PvP, but for PvE as well. Being PT DPS is lame. Tank charges in, your sprint deactivates, and you take a leisurely stroll up to whatever you're fighting. You can't even use it to help the tank position mobs due to the ridiculous amount of threat attached, I have a hard enough time not grabbing up aggro with Pyro as it is. Not to mention how horribly unreliable Grapple is, more so in a PvP environment. We shouldn't have to rely on just it and its horrible 45(35 with talents) second cooldown. Jet Charge also makes more sense thematically to be baseline. We all have Jetpacks on our backs plain as day. If anything is the special tanking modification it's the grapple line. I think some changes would be necessary, but it could be made similar to force leap. Drop all the added effects, increase the cool down to 30 seconds, leave only the base ability. There's no reason for this. 15 second cooldown, an interrupt, and a root are already similar to the other charges. The only thing not in line with the other charging classes is that it isn't baseline. Edited January 13, 2012 by chainsawsamurai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkenheineken Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I think some changes would be necessary, but it could be made similar to force leap. Drop all the added effects, increase the cool down to 30 seconds, leave only the base ability. Those would be weird changes considering Force Leap and Jet Charge are exactly the same except Jet Charge immobilizes for one second longer and deals less damage. Both immobilize, interrupt, and have a 15-second cooldown. The lack of a go-to gap closer for bounty hunters seems like it was intentional. Powertechs need to make an investment if they want to be rid of this problem, and most of them can do it. They have snares and increased mobility placed in most of their trees. Powertechs don't necessary need to be able to get close as easily as the push of one button. They have plenty of tools to make things work out for them. I really don't feel that this change is warranted at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chainsawsamurai Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Those would be weird changes considering Force Leap and Jet Charge are exactly the same except Jet Charge immobilizes for one second longer and deals less damage. Both immobilize, interrupt, and have a 15-second cooldown. The lack of a go-to gap closer for bounty hunters seems like it was intentional. Powertechs need to make an investment if they want to be rid of this problem, and most of them can do it. They have snares and increased mobility placed in most of their trees. Powertechs don't necessary need to be able to get close as easily as the push of one button. They have plenty of tools to make things work out for them. I really don't feel that this change is warranted at all. Our snares are also in our trees rather than baseline abilities. They're woefully insufficient as well, 2 seconds on a proc is horrible. We're the only class that relies on close range that doesn't have a baseline snare, our talented snares are awful (I'll have to check, but they may be removable as well). The expanded range isn't much to bring up against the this change because Operatives and Assassins have just as much available to them at range should they choose to use it. The only class which would have less mobility and ability to remain in close range as it stands are Warrior classes, who are having their mobility looked into and expanded as we speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrShazzam Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) For some reason I thought force charge was on a 30 second cd, and didn't do damage. In that case, I agree with leaving the ability the way it is and making it baseline. Edited January 13, 2012 by DrShazzam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raskovik Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Fully support this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellnassil Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Those would be weird changes considering Force Leap and Jet Charge are exactly the same except Jet Charge immobilizes for one second longer and deals less damage. Both immobilize, interrupt, and have a 15-second cooldown. The lack of a go-to gap closer for bounty hunters seems like it was intentional. Powertechs need to make an investment if they want to be rid of this problem, and most of them can do it. They have snares and increased mobility placed in most of their trees. Powertechs don't necessary need to be able to get close as easily as the push of one button. They have plenty of tools to make things work out for them. I really don't feel that this change is warranted at all. You talk about Invests? What did i have to Invest as Juggernaut for getting a Charge with 4 Seconds of CC Immunity and 40% DMG Reduction every 15 Seconds, 2 Seconds of 100% Defense with 25% DMG Reduce and so on...... There is a great Balancing Problem in Usability. I also support the Move of Grapple and Jet Charge because as DPS PT in PvE you need a Gap Closer. I started to level a Jugg as Backup if it is the case that Bioware don´t fix those Usability Problems. Hey come on, a Jugg can tank SOA as DPS better than in Tank Spec and is able to kick every Lighting ball Spawn with 40% DMG Reduce...... I realy hate the play Style of a Juggernaut but i see no other Option at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chainsawsamurai Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 You talk about Invests? What did i have to Invest as Juggernaut for getting a Charge with 4 Seconds of CC Immunity and 40% DMG Reduction every 15 Seconds, 2 Seconds of 100% Defense with 25% DMG Reduce and so on...... There is a great Balancing Problem in Usability. I also support the Move of Grapple and Jet Charge because as DPS PT in PvE you need a Gap Closer. I started to level a Jugg as Backup if it is the case that Bioware don´t fix those Usability Problems. Hey come on, a Jugg can tank SOA as DPS better than in Tank Spec and is able to kick every Lighting ball Spawn with 40% DMG Reduce...... I realy hate the play Style of a Juggernaut but i see no other Option at the moment. Juggs cry a lot, but they have a really nice toolset. They complain about AoE threat, but when they chill the **** out and realize that half of a pack (the nonelites) they're not supposed to bother with in the first place, they'll realize they're fine. I don't particularly like Jugg either. Most of my problems with them are aesthetic though. I think most of their armor looks like crap and their stance is like some teenage thug holding a baseball bat. Looks perfect with an angsty emo bieber cut, but not otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AetherMcLoud Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This really makes a lot of sense seeing as all 3 of our trees are mostly melee ranged and most flashpoint mobs and of course bosses are grapple immune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardeya Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I guess I don't really have to remind most of you about the skill that 90% of PvE mobs have in this game.Namely, the 200000 meter knockback they always seem to save up just for YOU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chainsawsamurai Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I guess I don't really have to remind most of you about the skill that 90% of PvE mobs have in this game. Namely, the 200000 meter knockback they always seem to save up just for YOU. Yeah thats the big reason I want Jet Charge for PvE DPS. Seems like everyone and their dog has a knockback. Some fights are more melee unfriendly than TBC WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharagada Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 While I would hate to loose to grapple outright, I'll admit if its a choice between grapple and jet charge I'll take the charge every time. I wonder if the reason we don't have jet charge base line is because of the talents in the AP tree, the additional run speed, the incombat sprint etc. If that's true then I'd prefer those talents get changed around a bit instead. Regardless yes I'd support switching grapple and jet charge course if there where a way to keep both I'd be even happier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dedaF Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I guess I don't really have to remind most of you about the skill that 90% of PvE mobs have in this game. Namely, the 200000 meter knockback they always seem to save up just for YOU. lol'd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tewnam Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yeah thats the big reason I want Jet Charge for PvE DPS. Seems like everyone and their dog has a knockback. Some fights are more melee unfriendly than TBC WoW. I think you're thinking vanilla, as BC was not especially unfriendly with the rise of fury warriors and enhancement shamans. Vanilla had the 360 degrees cleaves, BC just had stuff you had to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoyProtocol Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I fully support this. It would give a lot of oomph to our class. I would prefer if it was a ground-targeted relocate option, but I digress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavell Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The problem was... way back in beta jet charge was lower in the pt tree and was obtainable early.. this gave rise to a few hybrid builds in PvP that were so overtly OP that the skill trees were redone to place jet charge higher in the PT tree to prevent it and Hydraulic overrides from being used by 1 build, as well as a few other skills that were moved up trees. So you can ask but I can with almost absolute certainty that this will not be changed at all. for what it was worth the QQ flowed greatly the day it was changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharagada Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) The problem was... way back in beta jet charge was lower in the pt tree and was obtainable early.. this gave rise to a few hybrid builds in PvP that were so overtly OP that the skill trees were redone to place jet charge higher in the PT tree to prevent it and Hydraulic overrides from being used by 1 build, as well as a few other skills that were moved up trees. So you can ask but I can with almost absolute certainty that this will not be changed at all. for what it was worth the QQ flowed greatly the day it was changed. See this is exactly what I suspected. I can see those AP talents combined with Jet Pack and Grapple making Powertechs very dangerous despite APs lacking in the damage department a bit when compared to Pyro. The better solution, that probably would have made everyone happy, would have been to change out the AP talents (give them some different utility and perhaps a bit more damage) and leave jet charge available for everyone. I really hope the devs give some consideration to switching things around a bit. Edited January 13, 2012 by Dharagada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoyProtocol Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 See this is exactly what I suspected. I can see those AP talents combined with Jet Pack and Grapple making Powertechs very dangerous despite APs lacking in the damage department a bit when compared to Pyro. The better solution, that probably would have made everyone happy, would have been to change out the AP talents (give them some different utility and perhaps a bit more damage) and leave jet charge available for everyone. I really hope the devs give some consideration to switching things around a bit. "AP utility sucks! I would be willing to give up some damage and even jet boost just for some reliablity in the build!" You forget, this is the internets, people whine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dijskykiller Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I was thinking about the thread starter's idea this morning and found an existing discussion about it so im reviving this thread coz i think it does really makes sense for PTs. Im also in favor of the switch with the same reasons given by the TS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exphryl Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I was thinking about the thread starter's idea this morning and found an existing discussion about it so im reviving this thread coz i think it does really makes sense for PTs. Im also in favor of the switch with the same reasons given by the TS. This would keep the "Grapple in to fire" issue people having to a minimum since it should remove a bunch of PTs from that pool. Not to mention give pyro it's much needed mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleMagick Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Jet Charge is strictly better than Grapple in almost every way. Therefore BioWare would have to take class balance into consideration and not just usability. If they did make the change it would probably be part of a 1.2-style class rebalancing rather than just a straight switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegathegreat Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Imma be honest as a pyro PT i wouldnt want this......i prefer to control an opponent over just getting to them This would be an out right nerf to PT's.......you can go minutes without needing to effectively gap close on someone......but every 45 seconds someone is dying instantly to give my team a numbers advantage......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dijskykiller Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) i agree that pyro doesn't really need it, but i don't think only ST needs it. PT are considered to be a melee class and it needs a gap closer. Yah, theres grapple, but it has limitations like long cd, resolve, buggy animations that makes you pull someone get stucked on the platform above. As i see it, grapple is a tanking talent and jc will make sense in the ap tree which is focused in melee range. Edited March 28, 2012 by dijskykiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredcat Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) I agree, I could live without grapple, but I consider jet charge essential to my play style. Jet charge is the only reason I'm still that far into shieldtech tree. I would actually rather play an AP spec. Edited March 28, 2012 by Fredcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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