Dear Bioware, your PvP system is flawed, even if you add brackets

[AidenPryde]

Dear Bioware,

 

As a MMO vet who traces my experiece all the way back to UO and Shadowbane I have to say that this is sorriest excuse for a PvP system I have ever seen.

 

In two weeks of playing we already had level 50s, some through exploiting a WZ mechanic, though no action was taken against their accounts. What do you think they have been doing for the last month and a half?

 

To answer: They have been grinding WZs and many already have their FULL Battlemaster sets.

 

You intend to add PvP brackets. That won't fix anything for months to come for one simple reason. Expertise. The worst mechanic that the developers of World of Warcraft ever designed; and you decided to make it even worse by giving percent increases to not only defense, but damage, and healing.

 

You were merged with Mythic by EA. Mythic was the company that designed one of the greatest PvP games of the last 15 years - that being DAoC. What happened? Did all the skilled developers leave before you could grab them?

 

Did you learn nothing from the Mythic developers? Did they not tell you that it is possible to provide players two avenues of advancement in a game without dividing the community with an overpowered and silly stat? The beauty of the design of DAoC was that it allowed players to do what they wanted and still compete in both PvE and PvP.

 

It made PvP about what it really is about. That being player skill. Not gearscore, not Resilience or Expertise, or anything else other than the player learning from his mistakes.

 

But your system doesn't even allow players to learn from their mistakes. As soon as lower levels jump into the WZ they get three shotted by level 50s with full Battlemaster.

 

Even when you add brackets this will be a problem; because you have people that have been grinding the PvP gear for about a month now and have either full Champion sets or even full Battlemaster. A new level 50 will jump into the WZ and get slaughtered every time.

 

And what will be the result of that? One of two things, both nearly as bad. People will quit the game or stop queuing WZs.

 

Was it possible that when one of your developers said at PAX that "doing anything different than Blizzard was stupid" that you really meant copying even the bad mechanics?

 

Let me explain a little something. As soon as Blizzard added Arenas and Resilience several things happened. Here's a little list. World PvP died. Battleground populations dropped. Once the hardcore PvPers came back from their Arenas with all their epic PvP they completely decimated people who had just been doing WZ.

 

I know a lot of this is sarcastic, and it's meant to be. Precisely because I am just shocked that you designed such a bad PvP system (don't even get me started on how launching Illum in the state it is was okay - because it isn't).

 

But here's the constructive part.

 

I realize that PvPers should be rewarded. I however strongly believe that there are better ways of doing it.

 

One way is to equalize PvP and PvE gear. Same effort put into gaining gear. Many games have done it before you even contemplated designing this game, so it is possible. If it takes 20 hours to get a chestpiece during PvP, then it should also take 20 hours to get your PvE raid chestpiece.

 

Another is to design armor sets that effect certain abilities. Maybe a Juggernaut tank set add a percent resist to Knockbacks and Stuns. Millions of gear combos you can go with here. Go nuts Bioware, you can do it!

 

A third is to remove the random bags from WZ rewards. Instead all gear should cost commendations. This is how you balance out the PvE and PvP gear timesinks.

 

I know you can do these things. But as it stands now I believe the forums will explode in a couple weeks as most people start hitting 50 and face Premades with full Battlemaster gear and get facerolled and can't complete their Dailies in a reliable manner.

 

TLDR: Expertise divides community, discourages new people from getting into PvP and bracketing or Arenas will not fix this because many players already have high end PvP gear. Normalize PvP/PvE gear - same effort for similar rewards.

Edited January 13, 2012 by AidenPryde

[sjwho]

A good post showing what bioware should have done and should do.

 

I doubt that they will take this advice, or any, but thanks for your contribution.

[Felene]

TL;DR, I don't like people having advantage over me in pvp just because they spend more time playing the game while I don't.

 

P.S. During Early Access(started 12/13) few people in my guild has already reach lv50 and start their warzone grinding on launch day(12/20).

 

P.P.S. Your "crying" is wasted, back to leveling/grinding is recommended, or quit because your logic is flawed and until its fix... there is no fixed for you.

[Xthlo]

/signed:D for the OP.

 

 

To the person with negatives. Your obviously are new to MMO's and should let the grown ups talk now.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Xthlo
signed typo

[caultonpos]

Its too late, 3 years gave us a poor excuse for PvP, its impossible to fix now.

[sjwho]

TL;DR, I don't like people having advantage over me in pvp just because they spend more time playing the game while I don't.

 

P.S. During Early Access(started 12/13) few people in my guild has already reach lv50 and start their warzone grinding on launch day(12/20).

 

P.P.S. Your "crying" is wasted, back to leveling/grinding is recommended, or quit because your logic is flawed and until its fix... there is no fixed for you.

 

you didn't read but you commented on him "crying"

 

Cool story bro.

[TogashiMatsuo]

I think some of these points are somewhat dramatically overstated, but I have to agree with the core point RE: expertise. I wouldn't mind seeing it go... at all... tomorrow.

 

Also, I really love the idea of class buff gearsets. I mean, the current PvP gear is a headfake towards this, but not a very good one. I think there's a lot of fun to be had there.

 

Sadly, I agree with one of the above in that I don't think PvP will be getting that big an overhaul... but time will tell.

[Killadrix]

While I don't agree with a few of the points, I think the OP is a genuinely decent post.

 

As far as expertise goes, I feel that if you view it in context of a purely PVP standpoint it is a subpar, clunky and inhibiting force. However, when you broaden the scope and view it in the context of the overall balance of the game, I feel it is necessary.

 

To clarify: I do not support the use/implementation of the stat, I just believe it is necessary to the greater overall balance of the game.

[AidenPryde]

TL;DR, I don't like people having advantage over me in pvp just because they spend more time playing the game while I don't.

 

P.S. During Early Access(started 12/13) few people in my guild has already reach lv50 and start their warzone grinding on launch day(12/20).

 

P.P.S. Your "crying" is wasted, back to leveling/grinding is recommended, or quit because your logic is flawed and until its fix... there is no fixed for you.

 

I'm sorry your guild doesn't have that many 50s.

 

But there was a WZ bug at launch that I won't explain; but basically it allowed people to get four or more times of the exp they should have gotten for completing the WZ. So there were level 50s around the two week mark.

 

There is a guild on my server that runs around in WZs in full Battlemaster gear already. With Battlemaster Expertise you are lucky to hit them for more than 1200 on a crit as a DPS Juggernaut without full Champ Gear (I have 3 pieces of the set currently).

 

If you'd faced them, and the other Republic guilds on my server, you'd know how much of a game changer Expertise is.

 

I'm also sorry that you desire a special stat to set you above the rest when real PvP should be about like geared people meeting in battle and their skill determining who wins. Not what their gearscore is.

Edited January 13, 2012 by AidenPryde

[AidenPryde]

Also:

 

There is a guild on my server that has downed all but one of the Eternity Vault bosses and they are in full PvP gear.

 

So even with Expertise the itemization progression system in this gear is so out of whack it isn't funny.

[Aleeha]

Great Wall of Text crits for over 9000...

 

There is no flaw in any of the current pvp models with this game and future expansions. Why? Because you can simply just cheat your way to the top by hacking the game code or memory and profit.

 

So no reason to QQ about PvP, just do a little research and you'll profit just like the rest of the cheaters who are #winning like a warlock right now.

[Schwarzwald]

If you are going to complain about expertise then why are you even playing an MMO.

 

If you want an equal playing field then go play a game where modifiable gear options doesn't exist and everyone has the same flat dmg.

 

Do you even see the hypocracy of what you are saying? What would happen to PvP if you removed expertise? Then you would have the PvE players rolling WZ's because they are rocking the best PvE gear. Then you will have people complaining that people are rolling WZ's because they have guilds to do the harder operations.

 

Your argument is fundamentally flawed and you shouldn't even be playing any stat based game if you think expertise is the fundamental problem with PvP.

 

Expertise and PvP gear allows players who want to exclusively PvP to do so. Slaying dragons to become good at PvP isn't really a good design flow. Expertise rewards the PvP players who devote their time to it, just like how full PvE set bonuses reward players who put time into those raids.

 

If you don't like the fact that time investment = gear outcome in MMOs then go find a new style of game to play.

 

Also what are these exploits I keep hearing about? The only exploit/broken mechanic I know of is the stealth capping on voidstar with the AoE stealth ability, other then that, Classes using their pulls/pushes isn't an exploit, its a part of the game. Deal with it.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[FalmeseReb]

TL;DR, I don't like people having advantage over me in pvp just because they spend more time playing the game while I don't.

 

P.S. During Early Access(started 12/13) few people in my guild has already reach lv50 and start their warzone grinding on launch day(12/20).

 

P.P.S. Your "crying" is wasted, back to leveling/grinding is recommended, or quit because your logic is flawed and until its fix... there is no fixed for you.

 

This is sad, and pathetic.

[JonnySiniwali]

Once the hardcore PvPers came back from their Arenas with all their epic PvP they completely decimated people who had just been doing WZ.

 

That doesn't sound so bad considering that "decimate" means that you only destroy 1/10th of something...

[Ossos]

The reality of it all is simple; placing players on a hamster wheel for gear keeps them playing.

 

Remember, the goal in all of this is to keep you playing. If you're completely viable in PvP from the get-go and have no need to grind for gear, then you are more likely to spend more time paying/playing than if you had not gone through the hamster wheel experience.

 

What you're complaining about is one of the real money makers for MMOs.

 

This is the new standard. It will not change.

[Schwarzwald]

This is sad, and pathetic.

 

Its funny, like skimming a book really fast, missing a lot of content, then reaching the end and crying to the author about why there isn't more.

 

I mean, I grinded hard to 50, but atleast I'm not crying about it and expected what would happen. And whats happening is me in a PvP premade rolling the cry babies and I couldn't be happier.

[Vegathegreat]

I'm sorry your guild doesn't have that many 50s.

 

But there was a WZ bug at launch that I won't explain; but basically it allowed people to get four or more times of the exp they should have gotten for completing the WZ. So there were level 50s around the two week mark.

 

There is a guild on my server that runs around in WZs in full Battlemaster gear already. With Battlemaster Expertise you are lucky to hit them for more than 1200 on a crit as a DPS Juggernaut without full Champ Gear (I have 3 pieces of the set currently).

 

If you'd faced them, and the other Republic guilds on my server, you'd know how much of a game changer Expertise is.

 

I'm also sorry that you desire a special stat to set you above the rest when real PvP should be about like geared people meeting in battle and their skill determining who wins. Not what their gearscore is.

 

Yes and No, if everyone is the same then its boring to play. Ive played mmo's for 15 years and ive always played to get the best gear and dominate everyone at once. the only way you are ever going to be able to win 1v5 or more is with a gear advantage. I dont care about 1v1, i know im gonna win that regardless 99.9% of the time. Im personally feel like im way above that type of challenge. But im always down to run into a node with 4 people and take it solo. And having a gear advantage makes this challenge capable of happening.

 

And dont get me wrong, its not like said person in "best gear" was handed it, they earned it just as anyone else getting mopped to the floor can earn it.

[JonnySiniwali]

Yes and No, if everyone is the same then its boring to play. Ive played mmo's for 15 years and ive always played to get the best gear and dominate everyone at once. the only way you are ever going to be able to win 1v5 or more is with a gear advantage. I dont care about 1v1, i know im gonna win that regardless 99.9% of the time. Im personally feel like im way above that type of challenge. But im always down to run into a node with 4 people and take it solo. And having a gear advantage makes this challenge capable of happening.

 

And dont get me wrong, its not like said person in "best gear" was handed it, they earned it just as anyone else getting mopped to the floor can earn it.

 

Yeah, I watch "hero's" like yourself run into groups of 4 or 5 imperials all the time. I just stay stealthed and don't heal. Hilarity ensues. Then, when the other 5 people show up, I will go in and help the team.

[Zakaan]

Good post.

[Scoobings]

Your whole problem with pvp hinges on the fact that gear is a divider, but guess what:

 

You're playing an MMO.

 

Even in your proposal the people who have your version of PVP gear would still have a significant advantage over non-pvpers. It's a case of the have and the have nots, and the have nots are going to complain until they earn their right to be in the haves. (P.S. I only have 2 pieces of PVP gear)

 

Now let me explain this, if your gear was implimented then gear would essentially be thrown back to the pre-resilience days of WoW. The reason this is bad, because apparently you have short-term memory if you actually do have all this experience in MMOs, is that once people gear up for raids they will do massive damage and with no stat to defend against it people literally get one shot.

 

You honestly don't remember that from WoW? Because I only had BWL gear and I was oneshotting priests all over the place. Not even Nax gear, just T2.

 

BWs only mistake in this system was making expertise increase your damage. That's unneccesary, I feel, as the stats on the gear itself is enough of a dps increase that it's not needed.

 

Your entire arguement is flawed because in MMOs gear will always be a strong influence on the outcome of fights. If you don't like that, then I suggest you try a new type of game where that ISN'T an influence (or go play Legends in DCUO. That's an MMO and there is a PVP game mode where gear is removed. Oh yeah, but everyone hates that game mode. )

[Mertissielle]

I agree that Expertise is a bit of a silly system - it's not needed to seperate PvP gear from PvE.

 

I disagree that people having been able to farm and, therefore, destroying those new to 50 is an innately bad thing. Sure it sucks to get destroyed by those with better gear but it doesn't necessarily mean people will quit or stop queueing. For some it'll surely mean that they'll go "oooh, I enjoy PvP and these dudes with the gear are doing really well, I can't wait until I have gear like them - in fact, I'm gonna do two more Warzones per day to speed it up, it's gonna be awesome!"

 

Those people exist because I am one such person. I like seeing the 50s be awesome and it inspired me to start working hard to ensure I have 1,000/1,000 plus a bag in the bank ready for me when I hit 50. I used to do one WZ a day for the daily. Now I do more WZs than quests.

 

Best part of MMOs is that there's a lot of different folk who have different goals and are inspired to do different things. Worst part about MMOs is people assume their personal goals and inspirations speak for more than just themselves.

[Scoobings]

I agree that Expertise is a bit of a silly system - it's not needed to seperate PvP gear from PvE.

 

I disagree that people having been able to farm and, therefore, destroying those new to 50 is an innately bad thing. Sure it sucks to get destroyed by those with better gear but it doesn't necessarily mean people will quit or stop queueing. For some it'll surely mean that they'll go "oooh, I enjoy PvP and these dudes with the gear are doing really well, I can't wait until I have gear like them - in fact, I'm gonna do two more Warzones per day to speed it up, it's gonna be awesome!"

 

Those people exist because I am one such person. I like seeing the 50s be awesome and it inspired me to start working hard to ensure I have 1,000/1,000 plus a bag in the bank ready for me when I hit 50. I used to do one WZ a day for the daily. Now I do more WZs than quests.

 

Best part of MMOs is that there's a lot of different folk who have different goals and are inspired to do different things. Worst part about MMOs is people assume their personal goals and inspirations speak for more than just themselves.

 

You do though, because of two reasons:

 

1) PVE gear damage has to scale high to match the more difficult encounters, while player HP pools stay stagnant. With no stat to mitigate this damage increase, battles become too short, and players die too fast.

 

2) PVErs will get upset if there is equivalent gear to their's through PVP, because then someone will be able to gear up for PVE without ever setting foot in an OP. The expertise stat is there to make sure your character still earns some sort of progression, without trampling on PVE gear.

 

The implimentation of a PVP stat is something that is needed. How well it was executed in this game is a new debate all together. But I remember about 2 weeks ago PVPers were complaining that the benefit from having expertise wasn't big enough. Not that I agree, I'm just saying

Edited January 13, 2012 by Scoobings

[Ruuz]

I agree OP

 

the balance in daoc was the best ive ever seen, yet all new MMO's , WoW,WAR,RIFT and now SWTOR seem to have the same flawed pvp system, why is that?

I have had no fun in any of those games when reaching max lvl and endgame, its not fun its just a grind!

 

guess what game im describing below:

 

you ding xx, you queue up for BGs, you either win or loose and get x reward that can be spend on x gear.

 

sounds familiar?? I just cant place it? where have I seen this before..

its like playing the same game over and over with different skins, where have the creativity gone??

 

is it the same 5 people that just copy paste the pvp content for all new MMO's??

 

stop the BG at 49, make people go to openworld for 50 pvp, remove the "pvp stat" from gear.

make a endgame armor set that can be obtained through pvp kills and through pve raids.

make every player kill in openworld pvp anywhere reward you with valor,xp,credits and pvp tokens.

[Farrokhan]

I disagree that people having been able to farm and, therefore, destroying those new to 50 is an innately bad thing. Sure it sucks to get destroyed by those with better gear but it doesn't necessarily mean people will quit or stop queueing. For some it'll surely mean that they'll go "oooh, I enjoy PvP and these dudes with the gear are doing really well, I can't wait until I have gear like them - in fact, I'm gonna do two more Warzones per day to speed it up, it's gonna be awesome!"

.

 

For some certainly it's aspirational, but for others it's not fun. Being uncompetitive at lower levels wasn't fun so Bioware is adding brackets.

 

But being uncompetitive at 50 is fun? I think objectively it's less fun. You can make gear aspirational in much better ways.

 

Expertise is poor design.

[Provos]

TL;DR, I don't like people having advantage over me in pvp just because they spend more time playing the game while I don't.

 

P.S. During Early Access(started 12/13) few people in my guild has already reach lv50 and start their warzone grinding on launch day(12/20).

 

P.P.S. Your "crying" is wasted, back to leveling/grinding is recommended, or quit because your logic is flawed and until its fix... there is no fixed for you.

 

Actually your logic is flawed. The OP is more correct than you are. He has some invalid points as well, but for the most part he is correct. You also probably feel that twinks were ok in WOW too. Well you know what, the majority of people disagree with you. Wonder why it is always considered crying when you try to improve something that is obviously broken.