Raeln Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Which interestingly enough is something you never could have known without a dps meter. I knew who wasn't pulling their weight before DPS meters. Is it more difficult to spot - sure, no argument. Are DPS meters necessary for the normal game content - no. I would not mind if DPS meters were implemented in a way so that they were only available while inside a hardmode operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) You were doing so well until after this point. Here's what you'll have without meters. People the healers of screwing up, people accusing the tank of not holding aggro... people getting booted with not actual reason other than what they think they might have done. With a dps meter you can easily tell which dps was using a taunting ability, just how much threat the tank had, and how mean heals per second the healer was using. A tool doesn't make someone a negative player. No, damage meters lead to those things taking place. DPS-role players tend to get tunnel vision on making their DPS number bigger and end up ignoring the precepts of good play. They start to DPS before the tank even attacks. They begin to refuse to move out of the fire as that will lower their DPS. Damage meters are responsible for encouraging just as much "bad play" as it is "good play" - in reality, the amount of "bad play" might be greater in volume than "good play" when examined throughout all end-game content paths. As for figuring out what DPS is using their taunting ability - do you really need a damage meter to figure that out? Edited January 18, 2012 by Raeln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Was never going to raid in this game. It's the pathetic lack of features the 2006 graphics the lies told by Bioware that's going to keep me from renewing my account. The 2006 graphics? and what lies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Wow it's harder to be as wrong as you are now. So, he uses addons, including power auras. they use macros (I saw one in /say where someone clearly called the end of an ability with one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 No, damage meters lead to those things taking place.False; they happen with or without damage mebers, but with damage meters you have factual evidence to defend yourself with. assuming you actually aren't sucking. DPS-role players tend to get tunnel vision on making their DPS number bigger and end up ignoring the precepts of good play. They start to DPS before the tank even attacks. They begin to refuse to move out of the fire as that will lower their DPS.Yes, they get tunnel vision... but they get this regardless of whether there are meters. Meters don't cause that, or even encourage it. Damage meters are responsible for encouraging just as much "bad play" as it is "good play" - in reality, the amount of "bad play" might be greater in volume than "good play" when examined throughout all end-game content paths.No, meters are just a tool. They're not responsible for anything. Hammers don't murder people. Murderers do. As for figuring out what DPS is using their taunting ability - do you really need a damage meter to figure that out?Ok, tell which dps taunted... or if the boss just reset aggro for some reason. Or if the tank just wasn't putting out threat for 15 seconds and a dps went over his threat. Well? I'm waiting. With a good Meter I can provide that information in 15 seconds. Without one, you're just guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I knew who wasn't pulling their weight before DPS meters. Is it more difficult to spot - sure, no argument.Really depends on the game. At certain points in EQ's life, a rogue could go afk for 30 minutes during some fights and no one would ever notice... Are DPS meters necessary for the normal game content - no.I don't think anyone's actually arguing that; they're saying it's neccessary for the game to be successful, because of the amount of people who want them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Does that mean we should run as fast as we can toward giving them tools to enable them to be even bigger jerks than before?the tool doesn't enable them to be any more of a jerk than they can without it. In fact, the opposite is the case, since people who don't actually suck can easily defend themselves with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 So how am I supposed to ensure the DPSers in my guild are pulling their weight? I'm the GL and likely will be the MT, meaning I can't watch them DPS as I'm busy tanking. In an 8 man raid, if I have 5 DPS, I need to ensure each of those 5 DPS do 20% of the damage (ignoring my and healer damage for simplicity's sake). Now, I don't accept mediocrity, so how do I make sure each DPSer is doing their 20%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Oh man that's awesome. Bioware is going to introduce this new feature called 'combat logs'. I'm so psyched! It must be awesome since it could not make it in patch 1.1 because it needed more work. WOW combat logs such an innovation in a hotkey based MMO. I've also heard, they are working on.... A customizable UI You know you can make debuffs larger so you can actually see them, BRILLIANT! It might be in March or when the game is F2p but they are going there. It's just awesome when a company leaves out features other mmo's have as standard and give them later to you like it's a mercy gift. Thank you Bioware! Edited January 18, 2012 by TheHauntingBard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 So if I want a combat log to see if me or my group are doing stuff correctly, I'm bad and need crutches cause I can't figure out the game on my own. If I don't want a combat log to see if me or my group are doing stuff correctly, I'm bad cause I don't want to get called out on my poor performance. Neat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mewn Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Agreed it's optional and lets you see your numbers.....I think that is a fair compromise. I agree.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 False; they happen with or without damage mebers, but with damage meters you have factual evidence to defend yourself with. assuming you actually aren't sucking. Yes, they get tunnel vision... but they get this regardless of whether there are meters. Meters don't cause that, or even encourage it. My experience says otherwise. No, meters are just a tool. They're not responsible for anything. There are many good tools that need restricted because of the things bad people will do with them. Hammers don't murder people. Murderers do. Good thing there are no hammers in game. Ok, tell which dps taunted... or if the boss just reset aggro for some reason. Or if the tank just wasn't putting out threat for 15 seconds and a dps went over his threat. Well? I'm waiting. With a good Meter I can provide that information in 15 seconds. Without one, you're just guessing. No, you can't. The damage meter can only report what the combat log has specified wording to express. Provided Bioware implements a target of target (which I'm sure they will), I'll know immediately that the boss turns toward DPS_012. As a primary healer, I also have a pretty good measurement call a "healthbar" to see when overzealous DPS'ers are taking damage they should not be. I don't require a meter to tell me those things. It's also rather obvious that the DPS pulled aggro when he's a smoldering corpse on the ground because he was 1-shot. I swear, kids these days need to do some raiding without their training wheels on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I don't think anyone's actually arguing that; they're saying it's neccessary for the game to be successful, because of the amount of people who want them. Most of the pro-meter people in this thread are not happy with just self-meters, but group meters all the time, everywhere in the game. I've already stated that I don't care if they are implemented in a way to be used in hardcore operations only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 the tool doesn't enable them to be any more of a jerk than they can without it. In fact, the opposite is the case, since people who don't actually suck can easily defend themselves with it. Yes it can. Sure the tool didn't do it, but possessing the tool enabled them to be even more of a nuisance and blight to the community than before. No amount of you saying "no it doesn't" will change that. Seen it firsthand in "that other game" far too many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Most of the pro-meter people in this thread are not happy with just self-meters, but group meters all the time, everywhere in the game. I've already stated that I don't care if they are implemented in a way to be used in hardcore operations only. But what about those of us who take efficiency in all grouping as seriously as we do in Ops? If I'm tanking, I want to make sure the two DPS in a group are pulling their weight. If one guy is doing 70% of the damage, I want to remove the other guy in favour of someone who can pull his weight. I am very against the idea of people getting a free ride on my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephismo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Why would you need to lie, unless you were slacking, being a leech. What if the others lie too ? No way to tell lol Some one has to come bottom. Believe it or not they might just be doing their best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Easy solution. Group parsers are only available for hard modes both flash points and operations.These are the instances that use enrage timers and force you to use certain builds/rotations to complete them.For the rest they are not important so there is no need for them to be there. If you can't stand the fact that people want to see damage taken,interrupts done or death logs you can just have fun in a normal mode or with a guild/friend group. Just let the raiders have their tools for hard/night mare modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datku Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I can accept personal combat logs. It will let you judge your own DPS and whats working and not working. I come from a raiding background across several titles. I have seen the mandatory use of dmg meters and the problems they can cause. I feel that this is Bioware's way of coming up with a compromise between those that want to know their dps output and those against meters because it forces specific specs and builds if you want to raid. You can parse your own combat log to determine your dps but not "police" everyone else to judge if they are worthy or not. Again I come from a raiding background. I have tried to do encounters where you just do the best you can. I have banged my head against the wall over and over and over trying to clear the encounter. At the same time I have done encounters where a high minimum dps is expected if you want to be part of the raid. Logs are checked after every fight and you are expected to do X amount of dps to have a raid spot. This tends to force specific specs that are the highest or most efficient builds and if you don't use one of them you don't raid. I have been in guilds so hardcore rushing for world first kills and gone from being top dps raid wide for months on end, being part of first kills, training others of my class proper rotations, enhancements, consumables, gear etc to basically being benched after a class patch reduces dmg below that "raid thresh hold". Go from top dps to worst dps not by my actions but by game changes yet all my loyalty, experience, knowledge ends up meaning nothing when another class can out dps me. Then a couple patches later I am back in top dps (usually because nerfs are reversed or other classes are nerfed to be balanced) and back in a primary raid slot. Nothing changed in my play or ability other than class mechanic changes but because the parse showed I only did 1800 dps while another class was doing 2k+ well I was not pulling my weight and benched. All because of dmg meters. Personal combat logs are fine. You can parse them to get an idea of what you can do and not have to worry about anyone else critiquing how you play based on a report. I have been there, I have done that, I have seen the problems that it creates. I think bioware is trying to meet people half way...give you the means to determine your own actions and prevent others from dictating how you should play/spec. Yes threat meters and dmg meters are staples of EQ/WoW style raids but often result in elitism that restricts a fairly large portion of the game population from even seeing let alone enjoying the expanded content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) But what about those of us who take efficiency in all grouping as seriously as we do in Ops? If I'm tanking, I want to make sure the two DPS in a group are pulling their weight. If one guy is doing 70% of the damage, I want to remove the other guy in favour of someone who can pull his weight. I am very against the idea of people getting a free ride on my time. Then watch them. If you see them continuously standing in the back, picking their nose or constantly facing off in some random direction while everyone else is in combat - kick them. Otherwise, be a good sport about it. Edited January 18, 2012 by Raeln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Oh man that's awesome. Bioware is going to introduce this new feature called 'combat logs'. I'm so psyched! It must be awesome since it could not make it in patch 1.1 because it needed more work. WOW combat logs such an innovation in a hotkey based MMO. I've also heard, they are working on.... A customizable UI You know you can make debuffs larger so you can actually see them, BRILLIANT! It might be in March or when the game is F2p but they are going there. It's just awesome when a company leaves out features other mmo's have as standard and give them later to you like it's a mercy gift. Thank you Bioware! Exactly! I too would like to thank bioware for taking us into the year 2006 it's going to be a good year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Easy solution. It isn't a solution. There is no problem. Group parsers are only available for hard modes both flash points and operations. These are the instances that use enrage timers and force you to use certain builds/rotations to complete them. For the rest they are not important so there is no need for them to be there. I've beaten Hard Mode flash points. They don't require parsers. If you can't stand the fact that people want to see damage taken,interrupts done or death logs you can just have fun in a normal mode or with a guild/friend group. Just let the raiders have their tools for hard/night mare modes. Better solution. Leave group logs out. They aren't needed. Raiders will adapt to life without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProspectorPete Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 HAHAH if you think that it only for personal use your deluded or stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbertllew Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Raiders will adapt to life without them. Agreed. They will adapt by playing a game that has them. Edited January 20, 2012 by Herbertllew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppelin Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 This will be my #1 reason for canceling. If I can't tell if I'm grouping with bads I won't want to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 This will be my #1 reason for canceling. If I can't tell if I'm grouping with bads I won't want to play. If you can't tell if you are grouping with bads the problem isn't the game it is you. All you need to do is to pay attention. "Bads" as you call them are easy to spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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