Adam_Nox Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 any boss that is a war of attrition (damage race) is a poorly designed boss. Don't enable the devs to take the lazy way out or to overtweak encounters for only the raidcore players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Development dollars had to be spent to make the API that the "teenager with basic scripting knowledge" used. That addon API just didn't design and debug itself. And once they program the combat log, they'll already have all the code they need for a parser like World of Logs to exist. Still fail to see the "significant" portion of that, relative to the $100 million they've already spent. There is no difference at this point. If you bought the game you are counted - no one has been billed for a subscription yet. Everyone's counted. That's the point. In which case you have to ask yourself, what really matters? The people who are actually playing the game or the ones who've either quit or hardly play? Considering both demographics are being counted, who should you cater to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BountyHuntard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Other mechanics where mentioned where boss mods came into play in another game. That is how it came in, and it wasn't directed at you either. As for guilds who could do world first kill without addons just take a peak at Ensida and before. Neither did my guild use anything during Vanilla, there wasn't really much available either, we cleared out content anyway so who cares. Ensidia uses meters...They keep them private.. Why do they keep them private? They are a competitive guild. No one used meter in vanilla because the content was god awful and easy. It just required 20 people to carry 20 others who would wand spec their way to victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Please listen: Combat logs MAKE CONTENT MORE ACCESSIBLE. They allow people to assess and improve their performance on content that they are finding difficult. Not knowing how to get better doesn't make content easier. The current content, once bugs are fixed, will be the most accessible content known in TOR history. Once the combat log is made available and parsers can build them into raid wide parses - combat rotations and talent specs will be crunched through spreadsheets until a cookie cutter "best" is decided. The next raid after that will be chewed up and mowed down in record time, leaving the developers scratching their heads at why so many are yelling they are too easy. The answer will be more hurdles, either in the form of tighter enrage timers to mario aerobics to even more one-shot mechanics to try to bring the challenge back to where it is. The unfortunate casualty will be the common playerbase that do not want to be troubled with running parsers and damage meters just to complete content. There you go - I'm sure you won't believe my 13 some years of MMO experience (from ultra-hardcore raiding to casual raiding across EQ1 and WoW, with a brief stop in Rift). That's how the ball will bounce and you can take that to the market and invest with it. Anywho, I'm off to lunch now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeblesTV Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mineria Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Ensidia uses meters...They keep them private.. Why do they keep them private? They are a competitive guild. No one used meter in vanilla because the content was god awful and easy. It just required 20 people to carry 20 others who would wand spec their way to victory. Yet there where plenty of guilds who failed at BWL, AQ40 and NAXX The last part of TBC was ok, but with WOTLK and Catalysm everything got crap easy again, even HC is laughable. Just a question: Competition for what? Edited January 17, 2012 by Mineria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorrigTS Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Combat log = parser or damage meters. Same end result. Wrong. Combat log: Damage output: - What targets? - At what time? - Were people DPSing when they shouldn't be? i.e. some reflect Damage input: - Where did it come from? Was it from something unavoidable? Healing: - Is the correct heal being used at the right time? - Are CDs being used correctly to help protect group? Cooldown usage: - Did DPS use cooldowns at right time to increase throughput during increased vulnerability segments of the encounter? - Did tanks use cooldowns at right time to mitigate incoming damage, i.e. temporary enrage? Various boss mechanics... etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BountyHuntard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The current content, once bugs are fixed, will be the most accessible content known in TOR history. Once the combat log is made available and parsers can build them into raid wide parses - combat rotations and talent specs will be crunched through spreadsheets until a cookie cutter "best" is decided. The next raid after that will be chewed up and mowed down in record time, leaving the developers scratching their heads at why so many are yelling they are too easy. The answer will be more hurdles, either in the form of tighter enrage timers to mario aerobics to even more one-shot mechanics to try to bring the challenge back to where it is. The unfortunate casualty will be the common playerbase that do not want to be troubled with running parsers and damage meters just to complete content. There you go - I'm sure you won't believe my 13 some years of MMO experience (from ultra-hardcore raiding to casual raiding across EQ1 and WoW, with a brief stop in Rift). That's how the ball will bounce and you can take that to the market and invest with it. Anywho, I'm off to lunch now. Normal modes will still be normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yet there where plenty of guilds who failed at BWL, AQ40 and NAXX This had nothing to do with parsing -- except maybe on Patchwerk which was a gear/damage check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamanx Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Give us Damage Meter! Its needed also for raiding for guilds to improve our performance and to check if we have issue with dps or healing! its 2012 already common most of the MMO games have those tools ! and for those they saying we don’t need those tools just turn them off and stay alone ! or maybe you just so sucks and don’t want people to find that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Wrong. Combat log: Damage output: - What targets? - At what time? - Were people DPSing when they shouldn't be? i.e. some reflect Damage input: - Where did it come from? Was it from something unavoidable? Healing: - Is the correct heal being used at the right time? - Are CDs being used correctly to help protect group? Cooldown usage: - Did DPS use cooldowns at right time to increase throughput during increased vulnerability segments of the encounter? - Did tanks use cooldowns at right time to mitigate incoming damage, i.e. temporary enrage? Various boss mechanics... etc Same end result. Again, the amount of information you seek is basically ending up being an analog for "training wheels". If you, as a raid leader, need that much diagnostic information just to be able to down a boss - then you need to educate your raiders to pay attention to what they are doing. Your raiders should be able to figure some of this out on their own man. Edited January 17, 2012 by Raeln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeymtl Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 5 content hasn't been completed due to the unavailability of metrics. Which ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Normal modes will still be normal. There is no guarantee of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 No one used meter in vanilla because the content was god awful and easy. It just required 20 people to carry 20 others who would wand spec their way to victory.I'm sure lots of people did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm sure lots of people did I used meters on Lucifron. I also remember the drama it ended up causing too. Yes, I linked who was not doing dispels. I will not deny meters are useful - I just think the negativity they bring to the community far outweigh their benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbertllew Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) There are social solutions to social problems. If people link meters, and that bothers you, ask them to stop. If a raid requires meters, don't join that raid. I get it -- you don't like aggressive, poseur-y wannabe hardcore raider types, and think that damage meters create those types. I don't like those players either, and I don't play with them. If someone links meters in a raid i'm in, I ask them to stop. If they don't stop, I leave. If players start insulting each other over DPS, I ask them to stop, and if they don't, I leave. That's how adults handle things. We don't cut our nose off to spite our faces. We accept that with useful tools will come a few people who misuse them. We ask people not to, and enforce social consequences for rule-breakers. How many of you players who crusade against combat logs ever asked a player to leave your raid or quit linking meters? How many of you dropped a raid because people were being abusive to each other? Those guys are going to play the game irrespective of meters. And if they don't mock people for meters, they'll use the inspect tool and mock people for their gear. And if you convince the devs to take out the inspect tool, they'll mock people for their names. And if you convince the devs to turn off all nameplates, they'll spam emotes on you. And if you convince the devs to take out emotes, they'll jump up and down on your resource nodes. And if there's anyone left in your no-combat-logs, no-inspecting, no-nameplates, no-emotes, no-public-resource-nodes game, I'm sure they'll find something else to be jerks about. Edited January 17, 2012 by Herbertllew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 There are social solutions to social problems. If people link meters, and that bothers you, ask them to stop. If a raid requires meters, don't join that raid. I get it -- you don't like aggressive, poseur-y wannabe hardcore raider types, and think that damage meters create those types. I don't like those players either, and I don't play with them. If someone links meters in a raid i'm in, I ask them to stop. If they don't stop, I leave. If players start insulting each other over DPS, I ask them to stop, and if they don't, I leave. That's how adults handle things. We don't cut our nose off to spite our faces. We accept that with useful tools will come a few people who misuse them. We ask people not to, and enforce social consequences for rule-breakers. How many of you players who crusade against combat logs ever asked a player to leave your raid or quit linking meters? How many of you dropped a raid because people were being abusive to each other? Those guys are going to play the game irrespective of meters. And if they don't mock people for meters, they'll use the inspect tool and mock people for their gear. And if you convince the devs to take out the inspect tool, they'll mock people for their names. And if you convince the devs to turn off all nameplates, they'll spam emotes on you. And if you convince the devs to take out emotes, they'll jump up and down on your resource nodes. And if there's anyone left in your no-combat-logs, no-inspecting, no-nameplates, no-emotes, no-public-resource-nodes game, I'm sure they'll find something else to be jerks about. This would be acceptable, except for the tiny bit you overlook about developers ending up designing future encounters to assume damage meters (or other addons) are being used in a widespread manner. At that point, all of your diplomatic offerings are null and void because if you aren't using the training wheels - you won't be completing the content without overgearing it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm sure lots of people did I linked whoever didn't Tranq Shot into the Hunter chat (we had separate chat channels per class). Woke everyone up and everyone performed better because someone was watching them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This would be acceptable, except for the tiny bit you overlook about developers ending up designing future encounters to assume damage meters (or other addons) are being used in a widespread manner. At that point, all of your diplomatic offerings are null and void because if you aren't using the training wheels - you won't be completing the content without overgearing it first. But you're making an assumption that says Bioware WILL do that. They might not. Take WoW. At one point, WoW did have to develop encounters around mods, but then they began breaking mods that made raiding too easy and went back to designing encounters that anyone could beat without mods. Being that Bioware can learn from Blizzard's past, they can skip the part where they design encounters around mods and go right to the point of limiting what mods can do so that they can design encounters for everyone. That's a big thing a lot of anti-mod people miss, they talk about WoW's old days when mods were out of control but fail to mention that those days have been gone for over half a decade at this point. Just because Bioware may follow a similar road doesn't mean they have to hit the same potholes Blizzard did. They can see where Blizzard hit the pot holes and avoid them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbertllew Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This would be acceptable, except for the tiny bit you overlook about developers ending up designing future encounters to assume damage meters (or other addons) are being used in a widespread manner. Your alternative is designing encounters that assume players with very little information about their performance can still succeed. Any encounter designed that way is going to be very easy to complete, which is great -- I'm all for there being content that is accessible to large amounts of players. But I'm also for challenging content existing for players that want to be challenged, and you simply can't design content that's intended to challenge players and then not give them the ability to assess and adjust their performance accordingly. If easy content doesn't require logs, that's fantastic, since most players don't use them, even in games that have them. But hard content will require logs, at least for those of us who a) aren't able to magically defeat an encounter without knowing how we're doing or b) are unwilling to beat our heads against the wall until the RNG breaks just right and we win by accident. The existence of combat logs does not preclude the existence of easy content. WoW is a perfect example of that. Its current raid implementation let essentially any player join a raid to kill the final boss of the game within a week of the release of that content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thyrodent Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 this is why there is no subscription on my account - later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaedrynn Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Really - it takes me 10 seconds to scan a person's gear to see if they meet the minimum to do HM flashpoints. If they do, let's give it a try, if they don't I offer to help them run dailies to get the mods and tokens to do it. Wait, what am I saying? I mostly do these runs with my guild - and we help each other to get geared up for content. If that is not your case, and you are guildless w/o friends that you know and work well with, then good luck being an elitist jackwagon who has to PUG - it's going to work out really well I bet. That being said - have fun out there! Couldn't have said it better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delekii Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 There are ways around the limitation. LFM Hard Mode Flashpoints - Please send link to relevant screenshot of dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazeh Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The last part of TBC was ok, but with WOTLK and Catalysm everything got crap easy again, even HC is laughable. Ah that must be why every raider in WoW has got a full clear of Dragon Soul Heroic right? I mean how could they not with all the tools they have available to hold their hand and play the game for them?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbertllew Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ah that must be why every raider in WoW has got a full clear of Dragon Soul Heroic right? I mean how could they not with all the tools they have available to hold their hand and play the game for them?!? Actually, they probably do. And it has nothing at all to do with combat logs or add-ons. It's because Bliz has tiered the content in Dragon Soul for three groups -- PuG-level (what WoW calls LFR), which requires low-to-no performance, normal which requires higher, and heroic, which requires top-caliber performance. Banded content is good. This game just needs to provide the tools to allow people who _choose_ to do difficult content to assess and improve their performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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