Why expertise hopefully will stay

[GyroGate]

Big time PvP'er myself - used to be into some hardcore raiding as well.

 

If there's one thing I'm pretty sure of - it's how the more hardcore PvE players would react to PvP player getting world first bosses down - because they could simply get the same gear the PvE players would have to spend a lot of time getting from random loot Operation progression, thus making some of the harder Operation fights trivial due to overgearing.

 

There has to be a system that seperates these two instances of the game. I stopped playing PvE because I wanted to pursue thinking, adapting and calculating opponents - instead of fighting code. I enjoy gearing up, getting new and better gear, and perhaps show off a bit with the hard-to-aquire gear I've finally been able to put on. Without any type of gear progression in PvP, I would feel like I would be ripped off for investing so much time into a part of the game and not being rewarded in the same way PvE players are.

 

I understand that it's very easy to blame gear when a player beats you. Hell, I've done it myself - when I clearly was outskilled. We all get hot-headed when another player beats us, but one has to learn how to just "suck it up", and take it like a man. Some day, through practice and dedication - you too will be a ble to "own it up" just the same.

 

I spent a lot of time reaching 2700 rating in World of Warcrafts 3v3 arena system, playing a composition many ment where flawed and easy to beat - as well as playing a class many had deemed worthless at that point. We still managed to beat other, better geared teams than us - seeing as how we where not there for the start of the season. I practiced dueling outside of stormwind against our servers best players - day in and day out for weeks to learn how to adapt and use my skills at the opportune moments. And eventually, I was rewarded not only with gear - but admiration from my fellow players.

 

Sure, that sounds like I'm a huge loser claiming something like that - but I remember growing up with DAoC(age 13 or so when it launched), looking up to the guys I know where doing really well in PvP with their high RR ranks. Then when WoW and TBC was my game, I looked up to the PvP'ers there in great admiration - both through their cool gear, but also how well many of them played.

 

I just wish more people would realize how much skillful play actually works into games like these. You can math up and calculate how much you want to, but that 12% damage increase is beatable by anyone without it at the same level. Heck, me(level 43 Vanguard), my buddy Conner(40 Commando dps) & a healer friend of ours (41 Sage) managed to win 2 fights against a well geared(16k HP) PvP Assassin in Hoth today(she had a healing companion, we didn't use any) - twice.

 

Sure, I can see how it could be unfair to pit 3vs1.5 - but if the three of us managed that - a level 50 in decent new-dinged gear can as well.

 

I hope you guys look at this post without too much judgement and arrogance(perhaps I am as well at times) - but I support the Expertise, and feel that it belongs in SWTOR - and that's comming from one of the people that will have to struggle with the 50 Expertise Imperial premades to get my gear.

 

TL;DR: Expertise has my vote.

[yukirshiro]

What YOU want is for PVP'ers to be forced to raid so that YOU won't feel bad because you haven't spend any time pvp'ing, and you want a chance in Level 50 PVP that you've spent no time earning, when it comes to gear.

 

What on earth are you babbling about? I said put 50 expertise on all PVP gear. How on earth is that me wanting PVPers to have to PVE for gear? This isn't about PVE vs PVP. My solution still makes PVE gear suck for PVP but it doesn't make those with better PVP gear absolutely dominant the way they are now over those with less good PVP gear.

 

And it does double-dip. It is mathematical fact. Expertise gives much more per point of itemization than any other stat. Even just in champion's gear expertise gives you a net 25% advantage over someone with 0 expertise. That is a much larger advantage than anything provided by converting that expertise into normal stats at the current conversion rate.

Edited January 13, 2012 by yukirshiro

[yukirshiro]

Well, get the gear yourself then? I really don't see the problem.

 

Having to get owned over and over for no reason besides gear for hours and hours in order to become competitive is a stupid game model.

 

PVP gear should provide modest benefits. Right now the benefits are just too large because of the double dip from scaling expertise. Put flat expertise values on all PVP gear and you solve both problems with one fell swoop.

[Urothefox]

Expertise is an awful idea.

 

Grinding for gear is stupid.

 

Make PvE gear = PvP gear. That way you can get the same thing either through PvE or PvP. All roads lead to the same point whether you like killing players or NPCs. It shouldn't matter.

 

The joy of PvP or completing a dungeon should be motivator.

[Dystopic]

Well, get the gear yourself then? I really don't see the problem.

 

The gear is random, that's the first problem. The second problem is that there is no reasonably attainable starter set, like hardmode 5 mans for pve. What's the problem with PVP and PVE gear being mainly the same? So long as you don't have to PVE for gear.

[GyroGate]

Expertise is an awful idea.

 

Grinding for gear is stupid.

 

Make PvE gear = PvP gear. That way you can get the same thing either through PvE or PvP. All roads lead to the same point whether you like killing players or NPCs. It shouldn't matter.

 

The joy of PvP or completing a dungeon should be motivator.

 

My post pretty much explains why some of us PvP'ers feel the need for Expertise.

[yukirshiro]

My post pretty much explains why some of us PvP'ers feel the need for Expertise.

 

And like I said, the need for expertise doesn't require the current implementation. Put a flat expertise value on all PVP gear of all tiers and you keep out PVE gear without turning PVP into a gear check.

[tickolol]

And like I said, the need for expertise doesn't require the current implementation. Put a flat expertise value on all PVP gear of all tiers and you keep out PVE gear without turning PVP into a gear check.

 

You do know that PvE is just as a big gear check as PvP? Besides, it's not a gear check unless you go a premade WZ.

[GyroGate]

And like I said, the need for expertise doesn't require the current implementation. Put a flat expertise value on all PVP gear of all tiers and you keep out PVE gear without turning PVP into a gear check.

 

You're thinking like a 10% damage/healing increase base on current, and all upcomming gear sets for PvP - but increasing the stats to be on par with PvE equipment? I actually agree to that, the only problem would be that PvE players that struggle with PvE content could simply aquire PvP gear to outgear Operations.

Edited January 13, 2012 by GyroGate

[Rehash]

You do know that PvE is just as a big gear check as PvP? Besides, it's not a gear check unless you go a premade WZ.

 

Raids are supposed to be a gear check. PvP is not. What point were you making again?

[Rehash]

You're thinking like a 10% damage/healing increase base on current, and all upcomming gear sets for PvP - but increasing the stats to be on par with PvE equipment? I actually agree to that, the only problem would be that PvE players that struggle with PvE content could simply aquire PvP gear to outgear Operations.

 

Is there a reason players should receive a 10% bonus to damage/healing AND a 10% reduction in damage that requires nothing more to acquire than standing around in the Warzone afk?

 

If skill is so important, why not let it be the only factor?

 

Edit: This really is a response to your initial post, and I should have quoted that.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Rehash

[Iandayen]

As it is currently, Expertise, for me as a bounty hunter, is crap.

 

I get more of an overal damage boost from wearing my full columni/rakata set than I do from wearing full champion with like 11% expertise total. On top of that, in my PVE gear I have over 1k more hit points.

 

I have a choice when wearing the gear - gain a little bit of defense (lol a little is a strong word for that) and lose close to 7% crit, more than 10% of my bonus damage and healing and lost 1k+hp.

 

No thanks. I prefer to run around with 34% self buffed crit, 770 bonus damage and 19.1k hp in my pve gear.

 

PvP gear is crap, you give up enough main stats (aim/cunning/crit/whatever) for that expertise stat that it is not worth it (from a mercenary standpoint).

[gloryhunterprime]

You're thinking like a 10% damage/healing increase base on current, and all upcomming gear sets for PvP - but increasing the stats to be on par with PvE equipment? I actually agree to that, the only problem would be that PvE players that struggle with PvE content could simply aquire PvP gear to outgear Operations.

 

Most of the time if you saw new Tiers of PvE content you would see nerfs to the old content to make getting that gear easily. It would basically be an alternate progression path. I personally think that a flat expertise on all PvP sets would be a good idea. If you play PvP you are not at a major disadvantage to people who play PvP constantly but the people who do PvP will be able to get the higher level sets with ease.

[yukirshiro]

You're thinking like a 10% damage/healing increase base on current, and all upcomming gear sets for PvP - but increasing the stats to be on par with PvE equipment? I actually agree to that, the only problem would be that PvE players that struggle with PvE content could simply aquire PvP gear to outgear Operations.

 

I am thinking a system where:

 

Level 20 PVP armor: +50 expertise, other stats

 

Level 40 PVP armor: +50 expertise, other stats

 

Level 50 Battlemasters: +50 expertise, other stats

 

A full set of expertise armor would give you teh same net 30%ish bonus it does now against a 0 expertise player. Which would make PVE armor not viable.

 

You could buff the other stats, but not on par with PvE gear.

 

Or, you could just add a PVE stat too. So that all PVE gear has +50 PVEstat and all PVP gear has +50PVP stat, as well as all the other stats.

[yukirshiro]

As it is currently, Expertise, for me as a bounty hunter, is crap.

 

I get more of an overal damage boost from wearing my full columni/rakata set than I do from wearing full champion with like 11% expertise total. On top of that, in my PVE gear I have over 1k more hit points.

 

I have a choice when wearing the gear - gain a little bit of defense (lol a little is a strong word for that) and lose close to 7% crit, more than 10% of my bonus damage and healing and lost 1k+hp.

 

No thanks. I prefer to run around with 34% self buffed crit, 770 bonus damage and 19.1k hp in my pve gear.

 

PvP gear is crap, you give up enough main stats (aim/cunning/crit/whatever) for that expertise stat that it is not worth it (from a mercenary standpoint).

 

You're just wrong mathematically speaking. Against someone in full champion's if you wear your PVE gear you're at a 25% disadvantage because of expertise. The extra stats you get from the PVE armor don't make up for that loss.

[Rehash]

I am thinking a system where:

 

Level 20 PVP armor: +50 expertise, other stats

 

Level 40 PVP armor: +50 expertise, other stats

 

Level 50 Battlemasters: +50 expertise, other stats

 

A full set of expertise armor would give you teh same net 30%ish bonus it does now against a 0 expertise player. Which would make PVE armor not viable.

 

You could buff the other stats, but not on par with PvE gear.

 

Or, you could just add a PVE stat too. So that all PVE gear has +50 PVEstat and all PVP gear has +50PVP stat, as well as all the other stats.

 

I like your idea, linear increases of expertise across pvp sets is a complete failure I agree. However, I wonder why you advocate a stat advantage at all. Just Normalize ALL stats on PvP gear in the Level 50 bracket and let skill reign.

[Rehash]

You're just wrong mathematically speaking. Against someone in full champion's if you wear your PVE gear you're at a 25% disadvantage because of expertise. The extra stats you get from the PVE armor don't make up for that loss.

 

Yeah I ignored his post because he is so far off base. He can go on his merry way using his PvE gear however, it is his choice.

 

EDIT: Sigh, I was trying to edit this into my previous post. Failure.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Rehash

[GyroGate]

I am thinking a system where:

 

Level 20 PVP armor: +50 expertise, other stats

 

Level 40 PVP armor: +50 expertise, other stats

 

Level 50 Battlemasters: +50 expertise, other stats

 

A full set of expertise armor would give you teh same net 30%ish bonus it does now against a 0 expertise player. Which would make PVE armor not viable.

 

You could buff the other stats, but not on par with PvE gear.

 

Or, you could just add a PVE stat too. So that all PVE gear has +50 PVEstat and all PVP gear has +50PVP stat, as well as all the other stats.

 

This would probably work out well. I would support this, if it worked like I think you're thinking it would. Good point friend.

[GyroGate]

Is there a reason players should receive a 10% bonus to damage/healing AND a 10% reduction in damage that requires nothing more to acquire than standing around in the Warzone afk?

 

If skill is so important, why not let it be the only factor?

 

Edit: This really is a response to your initial post, and I should have quoted that.

 

Well, not all of us are AFK'ing in Warzones mate. If you read my longer post, you'll see why I support expertise.

[yukirshiro]

I like your idea, linear increases of expertise across pvp sets is a complete failure I agree. However, I wonder why you advocate a stat advantage at all. Just Normalize ALL stats on PvP gear in the Level 50 bracket and let skill reign.

 

I would prefer that too but this is an MMO and for better and for worse the gear grind is a large part of why people play. People would be very angry if you took out the gear element entirely.

 

I do not mind the geared loser who's on 24/7 having a modest advantage.

 

The current system is double-dipping madness, however.

[Kheldor]

Big time PvP'er myself - used to be into some hardcore raiding as well.

 

If there's one thing I'm pretty sure of - it's how the more hardcore PvE players would react to PvP player getting world first bosses down - because they could simply get the same gear the PvE players would have to spend a lot of time getting from random loot Operation progression, thus making some of the harder Operation fights trivial due to overgearing.

 

There has to be a system that seperates these two instances of the game. I stopped playing PvE because I wanted to pursue thinking, adapting and calculating opponents - instead of fighting code. I enjoy gearing up, getting new and better gear, and perhaps show off a bit with the hard-to-aquire gear I've finally been able to put on. Without any type of gear progression in PvP, I would feel like I would be ripped off for investing so much time into a part of the game and not being rewarded in the same way PvE players are.

 

I understand that it's very easy to blame gear when a player beats you. Hell, I've done it myself - when I clearly was outskilled. We all get hot-headed when another player beats us, but one has to learn how to just "suck it up", and take it like a man. Some day, through practice and dedication - you too will be a ble to "own it up" just the same.

 

I spent a lot of time reaching 2700 rating in World of Warcrafts 3v3 arena system, playing a composition many ment where flawed and easy to beat - as well as playing a class many had deemed worthless at that point. We still managed to beat other, better geared teams than us - seeing as how we where not there for the start of the season. I practiced dueling outside of stormwind against our servers best players - day in and day out for weeks to learn how to adapt and use my skills at the opportune moments. And eventually, I was rewarded not only with gear - but admiration from my fellow players.

 

Sure, that sounds like I'm a huge loser claiming something like that - but I remember growing up with DAoC(age 13 or so when it launched), looking up to the guys I know where doing really well in PvP with their high RR ranks. Then when WoW and TBC was my game, I looked up to the PvP'ers there in great admiration - both through their cool gear, but also how well many of them played.

 

I just wish more people would realize how much skillful play actually works into games like these. You can math up and calculate how much you want to, but that 12% damage increase is beatable by anyone without it at the same level. Heck, me(level 43 Vanguard), my buddy Conner(40 Commando dps) & a healer friend of ours (41 Sage) managed to win 2 fights against a well geared(16k HP) PvP Assassin in Hoth today(she had a healing companion, we didn't use any) - twice.

 

Sure, I can see how it could be unfair to pit 3vs1.5 - but if the three of us managed that - a level 50 in decent new-dinged gear can as well.

 

I hope you guys look at this post without too much judgement and arrogance(perhaps I am as well at times) - but I support the Expertise, and feel that it belongs in SWTOR - and that's comming from one of the people that will have to struggle with the 50 Expertise Imperial premades to get my gear.

 

TL;DR: Expertise has my vote.

 

A new level 50, who has never raided and never pvp'd, wanting to start raiding and pvp'ing, would take at least as long if not longer to get a full suit of Battlemaster gear than raid gear (assuming they are in a guild which could support raiding).

 

The difference is, you can be solo and/or in a small non-raiding guild or no guild and put in the effort in pvp and get the gear, it will just take a LOT of time and work. However, unless you're in a big raiding guild your chances of getting a full suit of raid gear is dismal at best. Add in the ***hole raid leaders who straight up say "if you don't have this gear don't bother signing up" and solo/small guild players won't EVER get raid gear. (Don't even include the idiots rolling on gear they can't use but want their companion to have who screw people who need the gear).

 

PVP is a working man's way to get good gear, and there's no elitism involved, you just have to be willing to take the beatings until you get there by the guys who have already done the work before you. You don't have to be in a so-called huge guild of elitists to raid to get it. Further, I'm ok with Battlemasters owning the raid geared out "weekend warrior" pvp dabblers.

 

No, I don't have a Battlemaster yet, heck I don't have any 50s yet, just a lot of 30s. Alt-a-holism, it's a curse.

[Urothefox]

My post pretty much explains why some of us PvP'ers feel the need for Expertise.

 

I read your post and I honestly don't see your point.

 

You busted your tail to be very good at pvp even when you were at a disadvantage because of gear. While I applaud your commitment (many would get discouraged), that is precisely why things like expertise (or even a PvE "stat") are pretty silly. You didn't need it to become competitive.

 

It doesn't do anything beside reduce variability among players. As it is, we are forced to run around looking like space ninjas and disco samurai because "ya gotta have expertise".

 

People did just fine in WAR without a PvP stat and their PvE stat was based on wards that were granted on armor gathered both in a PvP and a PvE environment. Armor of the same tier gathered in either PvP or PvE granted the same wards.

 

Finally, you don't need to segregate players because of a silly stat. At the very least, it diminishes your PvP player pool because those folks on the fence aren't even going to bother.

[Iandayen]

You're just wrong mathematically speaking. Against someone in full champion's if you wear your PVE gear you're at a 25% disadvantage because of expertise. The extra stats you get from the PVE armor don't make up for that loss.

 

No, i'm not.

 

I lose armor (a bit) going from columni/rakata to champion

I lose Aim (a LOT) going from columni/rakata to champion

I lose Endurance (a lot) going from columni/rakata to champion

I lose crit (over 5%) going from columni/rakata to champion

I lose 160 bonus tech damage/healing (out of 770) going from columni/rakata to champion

 

I gain 11% bonus damage/heal/dmg reduct going to Champion.

 

Lets do some math here.

 

Lets do my bonus tech damage (most of my damage).

 

770 bonus damage in PVE

610 bonus damage in PVP + 11% from expertise (61 bonus damage) - 671. I am still losing 100 bonus damage.

 

I lose over 5% crit going from PVE gear to PvP - HUGE in pvp because crit = burst.

 

I go from 19.1k hp in pve gear to 17.6k hp in pvp gear. 1.5k total hit point loss - pretty big chunk if you ask me.

 

I lose some armor.

 

 

I gain some damage reduction in pvp gear - but my survivability is not the issue, I'm a damage class and I have zero problems surviving against one or 2 people. If any more are on me I'm going to die whether or not I have expertise.

 

Expertise is crap. I have tested this in game too with friends, dueling them with and without pvp gear on, I do a significant amount more damage to them while wearing pve gear than when I attacked using pvp gear - both when they have pve gear on and when they have pvp gear on.

 

Edit - Not to mention the PVE set bonuses blow the crap out of the pvp set bonuses.

 

In pve gear I gain 15% crit to my main attack and it makes one of my secondary attacks cost absolutely zero resources.

 

pvp gear - I get reduced cooldown on my knockback.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Iandayen

[GyroGate]

@Keldor & Urothefox

 

I pretty much agree with both of your points concerning the Expertise issue, and I'd agree it's more healthy for the PvP playerbase to get some more of the PvE player to drop by more often and say hello. I'm just not sure how this would fix anything in the long run.

 

If you take out the Expertise from the game and make the top-end PvE gear & PvP gear the same - we'd be going into this battle on two fronts instead of one.

 

"Why are us newly dinged players meeting fully geared players in Warzones?"

 

The top-end PvP AND PvE guilds would be dominating in most Warzones against the lesser skilled players, meaning more problems would arise to this issue. Now, I don't support that solution either - but there needs to be a difference between those two sets of gear. Many people I know dabble with PvP ONLY to get the gear since it looks different/has different stats than the PvE gear. My PvE guild back in WoW I still talk to(been up since launch), and in my rated BG group - we had a lot of PvE players with us, that just wanted to acheive new and different gear while enjoying the PvP content.

 

It's really hard to get to an agreement concerning this issue, as there are so many factors at play.

 

One thing I'll agree on though, is how much the Expertise should count. If it bloats into insanity levels like in World of Warcraft, we're better off without it. But a mediocre increase(like it is right now) is more than enough - and still allows good players to beat their better-geared opponents.

[Kheldor]

I like your idea, linear increases of expertise across pvp sets is a complete failure I agree. However, I wonder why you advocate a stat advantage at all. Just Normalize ALL stats on PvP gear in the Level 50 bracket and let skill reign.

 

Do you think a big raider type should be able to go into a warzone in all raid gear on a lark and be able to own it up because his gear is so much better? (not being facetious or sarcastic)

 

The high end pvp gear should be equal, at least, to pve raid gear. Calll it two different progression paths to equivalent gear.

 

For the people who don't want Expertise, then hey, the other stats on pvp gear should be increased to the point they are equivalent to your raid gear, so both could be used in pvp equally, and pve equally.