Highfives Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) So Guardian has an upcoming tweak whereby using F.Push will reset F.Leap, here is the quote: Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) – We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary. Source: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443 I don't think this will benefit us and here's why: - F.Leap is on a relatively short cooldown so a lot of the time it is available anyway. Only occasions I really wanted F.Leap off CD has been chasing ball carriers and keeping people off doors on Voidstar but then we also have S.Throw for that and having it available at critical times amounts to smart management anyway. -Having F.Leap available does not mean it is usable. I think most Guardians will find the situation familiar where someone sets up cover denying us an opener with F.Leap or we are trying to pursue but we are slowed or the opponent uses a speed boost and LoSs us. Classes are a bit more mobile than us and to close the distance making F.Leap more available does not make a difference. -F.Push is not worth burning to reset F.Leap. F.push is so integral at the moment in pvp as an interrupt, quick kill technique and as an easy way to setup another opener. If people really need a short breather they will use F.Push and then F.Leap after anyway, there is no F.Leap availability problem. This will only benefit us in Huttball to catch up to a ball carrier on the odd occasion. -In a 1 vs 1 kiting situation or pursuing a fleeing target a F.Push + F.Leap reset is not viable. Say I am being kited 1 vs 1, this means I have nothing to F.Push to reset anyway. As another example say it is just me on the ball carrier with F.Leap on CD not only do I have nothing to F.Push but due the problematic delay of F.Push with lag I might push the enemy toward the goal line instead of off the platform. Tweaking F.Leap changes relatively little for Guardians in my opinion, but F.Pull instead of Push would benefit us greatly: -F.Pull is better for closing distance. Pulling people out of cover and closing the gap on kiters and fleeing enemies. Imagine you are pursuing, you have about a second before the enemy LoS you and speed boosts away (think objectives on Alderaan where you have a lot of ways to block LoS) why would you want to push them away? even if it does setup for an F.Leap. I have to agree with the caster Taugrim creating distance is not what you want as a melee char. So F.Pull essentially solves the distance problem and is still viable as an interrupt. -We could kill more safely and more efficiently in PvE. Quite a few Guardians tank so pulling an enemy to a safe position is better than moving to the enemies position and then F.Pushing them to where you want them. -A pull does not suffer the same lag delay problems as a push. I think I've seen it quite a few times and had it happen to me in a few situations. You have an enemy on a platform, you want to F.Push them off so you F.Leap to them, position and then F.Push ... and then they go flying towards the goal line or to a safe part of the bridge. This is pretty much lag where the enemies position is not the same as on your screen. Now with an F.Pull your positioning will always be correct and the enemy will always be pulled to the spot you want them to be. If you agree please sign and leave a comment. Feel free to comment anyway I'm just trying to avoid where people just put only /signed with nothing to expand upon that. Edited January 12, 2012 by Highfives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felaed Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Honestly, if they move Unremitting and Protector into accessible places for 31 point Guardian tanks, I would rather have the Push -> CD Reset. The way it is though, with almost no ability to generate ANY viable ranged threat, and the tendency for mobs to immediately CC (via Stun, Choke, or Knockback) a target with threat that enters melee range, not being able to access Unremitting is a completely broken tank imbalance. Their penchant for that instaCC makes what should be an excellent PvP DPS talent in to a tank's best friend, so much so that it makes taking the 31 point talent seem a bit off. Something about that needs to change, be it the removal of the instaCC, or the Vigilance tree being shuffled around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalnar Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Personally for me, it would be much logical if sabre throw would reset force leap as its the usual combo. Pushing someone (wasting push) only to be able to leap, seems like odd choice to me. Beside, change like this can allow guardians to leap over 100m in certain ideal scenarios in about 7-8s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakks Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Force leap is fine, the problem is someone who knows how to kite it staying inside the leap range or operatives/snipers with "cover" I cannot leap to while they've knocked me back and I'm snared. If saber throw is going to have its silly CD, it needs another effect added -- perhaps a KB, and put it down around 15-20 seconds. Then put a talent in Shield with a %chance for saber throw to reset force push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cylide Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Not once in the 10 years I've been playing MMOs have I seen a thread with the [Petition] tag actually achive anything. Good luck though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highfives Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Honestly, if they move Unremitting and Protector into accessible places for 31 point Guardian tanks, I would rather have the Push -> CD Reset. The way it is though, with almost no ability to generate ANY viable ranged threat, and the tendency for mobs to immediately CC (via Stun, Choke, or Knockback) a target with threat that enters melee range, not being able to access Unremitting is a completely broken tank imbalance. Their penchant for that instaCC makes what should be an excellent PvP DPS talent in to a tank's best friend, so much so that it makes taking the 31 point talent seem a bit off. Something about that needs to change, be it the removal of the instaCC, or the Vigilance tree being shuffled around. I'm speaking from defense tree spec experience but I do occasionally lose threat from ranged but there is a number of ways for me to regain it like challenging call, taunt, force leap into awe. However I'm fine with instant CC or knockback because we can break through it and keep taunting. Can't you see the utility of Force Pull in those situations though? pulling an extra enemy in before they can CC or pulling another ranged in so it's easier to build threat. Not once in the 10 years I've been playing MMOs have I seen a thread with the [Petition] tag actually achive anything. Good luck though. Thanks lol, all I want is it to be considered. Honestly with a melee class and two tank trees and a dps tree I would have thought the Guardian would have made more sense to have a pull rather than a push. Edited January 12, 2012 by Highfives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pure_laced Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 We just need a Force Pull. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rophez Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 /signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KraeVull Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I think all Jedi should be able to force push and force pull, for thematic reasons and gameplay reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highfives Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Personally for me, it would be much logical if sabre throw would reset force leap as its the usual combo. Pushing someone (wasting push) only to be able to leap, seems like odd choice to me. Beside, change like this can allow guardians to leap over 100m in certain ideal scenarios in about 7-8s. Saber Throw and Force Leap is a popular combo but sometimes I just jump in there and combat focus. I only use F.Push into Leap if it's a close call but yeah it's not worth wasting for a reset. Your example is also correct, if the reset is implemented my defence Guardian could jump 90m. So in Huttball not only would a Guardian be hard to focus fire you could maybe jump to an enemy on a platform then to your ally and then to an enemy on the goal line. This is only in ideal situations like you said but there are some who are going to master it and you'll have unstoppable Guardians leaping to goal lines. I think all Jedi should be able to force push and force pull, for thematic reasons and gameplay reasons. I think the problem is in terms of balance, if you have both that's an extra interrupt and in pvp you'd also potentially have two abilities which can help you kill easily by environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MimicUnleashed Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 There really isn't a balance issue with Knights having pull, to be honest. Vanguard has that grapple line, and a storm. And they're ranged (though most of their good abilities are melee) and yet they have it. I honest support the idea as it would seriously keep kiting down. Shadows can at least stealth to cover ground to start a nice opening rotation. Not to mention they have stuns and honest short-term CCs. Adding pull to the Knight's kit could do far FAR more for the kit for PvP, PvE and general fun than pushing-leap combos as melee needs things AT melee range. Push then leap is no net gain in up time all things considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atamasama Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I like the Force Leap reset, I think it's a neat idea. But, yes I agree that it seems screwy that Force Pull was taken away from Jedi Knights (they used to have it). I remember that it was said that it was considered overpowered for a melee class to have both a gap closer and something that pulls things into melee range. But... Shadows have Force Speed and Force Pull, Vanguards have Storm and Grapple, the only tank who doesn't have a gap closer and a pull is Guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highfives Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I like the Force Leap reset, I think it's a neat idea. But, yes I agree that it seems screwy that Force Pull was taken away from Jedi Knights (they used to have it). I remember that it was said that it was considered overpowered for a melee class to have both a gap closer and something that pulls things into melee range. But... Shadows have Force Speed and Force Pull, Vanguards have Storm and Grapple, the only tank who doesn't have a gap closer and a pull is Guardian. Yeah I agree we need it. If anything we are at a severe disadvantage as melee tank spec... I really wish BW would throw us a bone here. Edited January 12, 2012 by Highfives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timidobserver Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Well I sign this post. The cool down on force push and is to long for this to be useful. Not to mention that they'll probably stick it in a tree somewhere that makes it even more useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithkrul Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Force push is a wonderful utility for giving us another chance for a "free" stun as well as a chance for a "free" blade storm. Both of which can help for situations when focus is low or non-existent, as well as another interrupt, which is all defensive spec guardians really have anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeliniD Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 /signed I agree, a "death grip" equivalent on jedi guardians fits very well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisJSY Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Vanguards (and bh) get a charge and grapple. Why don't we? Oh yeah I forgot, we're the red headed stepchild. Harpoon Storm Because ranged tanks need an even easier job compared to what they have already they need to bring a mob into their face right? Come on, we have short ranged aoe's and sooo many packs have that odd one out of range, give.us.force.pull. Gogogo! Edited January 12, 2012 by ChrisJSY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highfives Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Force push is a wonderful utility for giving us another chance for a "free" stun as well as a chance for a "free" blade storm. Both of which can help for situations when focus is low or non-existent, as well as another interrupt, which is all defensive spec guardians really have anyway. You can do all that with F.Pull but better, and I don't see why the extra effects can't be applied to F.Pull instead, like free Bladestorm after F.Pull. It's the same as F.Push but better for tanks and probably even better for focus dps so enemies don't get away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malissant Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I was really disappointed with those patch notes. I've never been in a situation where my push was open when my leap was on cool down and I'm thinking, damn if only my leap was available right now! Who decides that a 1 min CD ability should reset a 15 sec CD ability? The only times my leap isn't ready when I want it, is playing huttball after just leaping to the ball carrier then getting blasted of the ramp. So ... who do I push to reset my leap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost_jedi Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'd rather F.Leap reset be based off saber throw as well. Using force push to reset leap feels like I'm just giving them free resolve due to travel time of leap and gcd. This is of course assuming resolve works as intended. As for force pull, it's a sound idea that can be used for both pvp and pve situations but this class already suffers from skill bloat. IMO f.leap reset off of saber throw, allow vigilance specced guardian to leap into cover talented, allow defense to sunder at gcd, I never played focus build so I'm not sure what it needs except maybe make unwavering focus affect stasis as well, and fix the def/shield skill to mitigate against force/tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atamasama Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 As for force pull, it's a sound idea that can be used for both pvp and pve situations but this class already suffers from skill bloat. Then get rid of a useless skill we already have. Maybe get rid of Opportune Strike and replace it with Force Pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Leap -> Push -> Leap -> Guardian leap -> Score! In a perfect world maybe, but in SWTOR.. Oh hey I'm having trouble staying in melee, let me just waste a CD to push them away when I get close enough. Good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vealow Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I think all Jedi should be able to force push and force pull, for thematic reasons and gameplay reasons. I agree with this... I'm a lv 19 JG yet i have zero skills that make any use of "the force" with my hands (which is iconic to SW what ever way you look at it). Also Tanks need to stay in close proximity to all their targets, there is not a more efficient way to achieve that and keep your team mates at a safe distance then using a force pull. /Signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atamasama Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Also Tanks need to stay in close proximity to all their targets, there is not a more efficient way to achieve that and keep your team mates at a safe distance then using a force pull. Not really, leaping to a group of enemies does the job a lot better than pulling them one at a time to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vealow Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Not really, leaping to a group of enemies does the job a lot better than pulling them one at a time to you... You misunderstood what I Meant. If a mob breaks away from you its more efficient in my eyes to force pull him back and save your aggro skills from unnecessary cool downs. I agree that force leap is the best way to close a gap to begin with but you don't want to be dragging several mobs over to your healer when one of them breaks away especially if you put some effort into your positioning. Hope that cleared up what I imeant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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