Jinzouningen Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Box sales really help, but they aren't as important as you think they are. What matters most is retention. This.. ^^ when you already projected earning for a sub based mmo..those subs are in those projections.. thats common sense. I know 2 guys that bought the game ( box sales) but decided they arent going to play it. They have the money to burn like that but those 2 guys would be the same as.. 500k people buying it ( box sales) but leaving before they pay a sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarbonzotheDude Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) It isn't doomed. The game just launched and they need to work some things out. Plus, to be fair there are some mechanics that should have been put in place or better refined before the game launched that has some people frustrated. No doom here just going to take BW time to get the game fully fleshed out. Could have done a better job but on the same token could have been a heck of a lot worse too. Fairly decent launch really least from my perspective. Edited January 12, 2012 by GarbonzotheDude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfabulous Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I don't farm..and I don't grind. I do my quests ..my crafting etc. I talk to my guildies..I have fun on vent, and I group with guildies or others on occasion. I love the atmosphere in Tor, and I get a large thrill out of visiting a "new" planet. I am an SWG vet, Elder Master Dancer, TK and Swordsman..Sunrunner server. I am enjoying my time with Tor ..immensely. I would suggest, that games don't grind and games don't farm... People do. Perhaps you are going at it ..like you are still playing Wow. Don't. Try a new class...there is not just ONE STORY..there are more. There are also legacy levels to work on if you are level 50. Myself I wasn't in a big rush to "beat da game". I am level 45, started on the 16th of December. I've been taking time to smell the roses, and frankly I haven't outlevelled my guildies so am not forced to sit around and wait for anyone to catch up. Life is all about choices. If you choose to rush through everything, then you are going to miss alot of stuff. There are many other story lines to experience. Each story adds to the overall lore and understanding about the Tor galaxy/universe. If all you do is farm and grind..then that is your choice to make things as dull as possible for yourself. That is not the game ..that is you. You just stated like 4 types of grinding and said " I don't grind, neither should you" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It just got started. Just looking at server population, it seems like they survived the queues in the first days and still have population on the servers. Soon they will probably go for commercial advertising and stuff to keep that up. So it looks to me like they are in good shape to be prosperous (i.e. .5 million or more subs). Time will tell though. It needs to really stick to the casual crowd because the more hardcore will certainly get bored. Contrary to popular belief you don't need 5 million subs to be succesful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sech Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Not likely, those games all lacked solo playability and were a lot lower quality. So they had to attract the more serious MMO crowd, and it turns out that group is extremely hard to please and fickle - just read these boards. You don't know what you're talking about. Those games failed because they weren't complete and release and were BAD. I played WoW since release, I was what you casuals would call a "hardcore" it had content and itemization up to 60. when AOC was released, there were instances that you could enter that weren't finished, items that would drop that didnt have stats. The game was just BAD BAD BAD BAD That's why AOC failed. Other MMO's failed because they couldn't hold any crowd, what you don't get is when you reach 50 youll be bored too. How many times can you clear the same planets doing the same quests on alts and only having the story quest different? News flash, When you roll an alt ALL the quests are the same EXCEPT the class quest!!!! How long will that entertain you casuals? We need the hardcore crowd, we need engaging pvp, we need difficult raids, we need group required content for the GOOD loot, we also need some content for casuals. We need content that will last 3-6 months so BW can make new content, we need to attract casuals AND hardcore gamers to keep the game alive. That's what you don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinzouningen Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Going to be honest with you. I love the voice acting, the dialogue, etc. The cut scenes became dry before I left the first planet. After level 20 this game for the most part lost all attention. By level 30 I became so bored I started googling for mmos. I was so hyped about this game for ages now, its a complete and utter let down. Its not quite on par with the let down via avatar the last air bender movie, but I wouldn't be surprised if Mknight had some part in the creation of this game. ------------- Man youre like my clone or something. i was eating up every bit of pre-release info i could on this game for months. Subbed to the swtor youtube chan, had preordered in early Aug., read / watched all the holo history timeline..stuff ( which i enjoyed) then as i got more and more levels it got harder and harder to keep playing. Worse part for me is my wife knowing i paid money for the game and bought new pc upgrades and when she sees me not playing she's of course going to ask.."uh why arent you playing that starwars game you bought?" ...doh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abishe Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) customers equal complaining Worry when their is silence man. and their legit really a lot of thing's still very wrong ingame. Edited January 12, 2012 by abishe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talligan Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 So, I'm a young guy. Through work and school (coupled with terrible home internet in my valley) I've only had the chance to experience 3 MMO's, WoW, City of Heroes, and SWTOR. I have enjoyed all three, though far be it from me to call them perfect gaming experiences. Though, to be fair, if I could get high-speed internet where I live, I would play A LOT more. Now, 3/4 of the threads on the forums are complaints, issues, bugs, and low expectations that predict this game is "dead", "will die", "is broken", "is ruined", and so on. I have seen others praising the game, but nitpicking certain details. And, of course, the WoW comparisons and "back to WoW" comments pop up everywhere. I want to know, and excuse my ignorance, but is it really that much of an issue? Is this game truly doomed? I'd like to remain skeptical of what I presumed was a vocal minority, but reading through certain threads reveals that there are some serious issues to be had. Are these kind of things normal? I really like this game and I'm working on learning the mechanics, specifically PvP, so I can enjoy myself even more. But is it all pointless if the game is truly doomed to implode? No, it isn't doomed. An mmo > 150-250k subscribers is a successful mmo. If FFXIV hasn't died yet then SWTOR certainly won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drallbait Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I hope they don't stick to the "casual" crowd. The raids are already piss poor easy as it is. Every level 50 I see is in full epic gear. I talk to them "dude this crap is a joke, I ran this raid for 2 weeks with my guild, boom full epic set, now I have nothing to do" That's what you CASUALS promote, super easy to obtain joke quickly progressed stupid lame content. trust me, when you casuals get to 50 and want to raid and after raiding for 2 weeks have full sets YOULL GET BORED TOO. Raids need to be HARD they need to take TIME to PROGRESS otherwise EVERYONE WILL GET BORED! BW can't release a new raid every 2 weeks, so the content that is released needs to take 1-3 months to clear otherwise EVERYONE WILL BE BORED. The pvp needs to also be fixed, same issue there, 2-3 weeks BAM full epic set. Done Bored. quit. CASUAL GAMING IS RUINING GAMING Everyone wants everything right away and they want it super easy with no effort, well guess what? The promotes boredom, the big part of an MMO is getting that piece of gear, or that mount, or that WHATEVER that you've been working for for months. The SATISFACTION of that, the "LOOK AT ME I PUT THESE MONTHS IN AND LOOK WHAT I GOT!" When everyone can have EVERYTHING within a week it means NOTHING it gives people no motivation to even keep playing or trying. FAIL! Well, I'm at level 14 now, and love my character, but am also excited about a few other ACs, so I'm not likely to get bored anytime soon. Sorry if that doesn't meet your expectations. See, the different between play time for hardcore vs casual is HUGE. Its literally one or more orders of magnitude (x10, x100, etc.). So if you are all decked out in Epics and are bored, just move on to another game, or roll another character. People like you think you are what makes a mainstream MMO successful, but you are just dead wrong on that front. WoW isn't successful because it appeals to hardcore raiders, it is successful because it also appeals to the masses of people that just like to play a game in their free time a few hours a week. Only one MMO has ever succeeded on that front, but SWTOR is poised to be the second - and may well get the content together to attract a lot of hardcores as well. Having been through the Onyxia pre-reqs for Horde multiple times in Vanilla WoW and help others countless of times, (and still wake up at night screaming "No, not LBRS again!" I am very glad SWTOR doesn't do any crap like that just to make it take longer! Edited January 12, 2012 by Drallbait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmthethird Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 the game is not doomed. 2 million subs in less then a month. if that is the numbers of a doomed game, then all games companies may as well shut up shop now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drallbait Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Contrary to popular belief you don't need 5 million subs to be succesful .5 million, i.e. 500k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 the game is not doomed. 2 million subs in less then a month. if that is the numbers of a doomed game, then all games companies may as well shut up shop now Actually latest projections from Crowley & Associates puts it at 3.2 mil....but they are usually off a few thousand one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sech Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Well, I'm at level 14 now, and love my character, but am also excited about a few other ACs, so I'm not likely to get bored anytime soon. Sorry if that doesn't meet your expectations. See, the different between play time for hardcore vs casual is HUGE. Its literally one or more orders of magnitude (x10, x100, etc.). So if you are all decked out in Epics and are bored, just move on to another game, or roll another character. People like you think you are what makes a mainstream MMO successful, but you are just dead wrong on that front. WoW isn't successful because it appeals to hardcore raiders, it is successful because it also appeals to the masses of people that just like to play a game in their free time a few hours a week. Only one MMO has ever succeeded on that front, but SWTOR is poised to be the second - and may well get the content together to attract a lot of hardcores as well. Having been through the Onyxia pre-reqs for Horde multiple times in Vanilla WoW and help others countless of times, (and still wake up at night screaming "No, not LBRS again!" I am very glad SWTOR doesn't do any crap like that just to make it take longer! The majority of people on my server are 30+ and if I do a /who 50 there's hundreds already. I've personally whispered them, they aren't all "hardcore" the leveling curve in this game is so incredibly small anyone can get 50 with 2-3 hours of game play a day within a month or so. Not everyone likes rolling 50 characters and replaying the same leveling content. The key to retention is a good endgame and PVP, always has been always will be. I was there at Wow's first day and did all the Onyxia and MC raids. It took us weeks if not longer to clear all that content and we were a top end server guild (DIE on Illidan). We had only been farming MC and Onyxia for a month or two when Blizzard released new content. As were most high-end guilds. If people are already fully done clearing all raid content and have full epic sets, and BW doesn't release more complex harder raid content and fixes PvP the game is doomed. You may think you're the majority but in reality you really aren't, people play MMO's to do GROUP content. I can solo RPG's all day long playing demon souls on my Ps3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sech Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Actually latest projections from Crowley & Associates puts it at 3.2 mil....but they are usually off a few thousand one way or the other. I'd be HAPPY to see this, please post a link to source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drallbait Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) You don't know what you're talking about. Those games failed because they weren't complete and release and were BAD. I played WoW since release, I was what you casuals would call a "hardcore" it had content and itemization up to 60. when AOC was released, there were instances that you could enter that weren't finished, items that would drop that didnt have stats. The game was just BAD BAD BAD BAD That's why AOC failed. Other MMO's failed because they couldn't hold any crowd, what you don't get is when you reach 50 youll be bored too. How many times can you clear the same planets doing the same quests on alts and only having the story quest different? News flash, When you roll an alt ALL the quests are the same EXCEPT the class quest!!!! How long will that entertain you casuals? We need the hardcore crowd, we need engaging pvp, we need difficult raids, we need group required content for the GOOD loot, we also need some content for casuals. We need content that will last 3-6 months so BW can make new content, we need to attract casuals AND hardcore gamers to keep the game alive. That's what you don't understand. Well, I played WoW before release and at release and for 5 more years and it shocks me to hear you thought it was itemized and had content to max level? It shipped with no PvP system, Molten Core and Onyxia for End Game content. The amount of whining about that fact when WoW shipped was almost on par with the amount of whining in the SWTOR forums. The only difference is you had these ridiculous time sinks like "Go grind Fire mats and Dark Iron Ore for 1000 hours to outfit your guid for Lava Packs and Ragnaros!" Which is what folks like you seem to like. Blizzard had to cut that out because it hurt the casual market. To me, SWTOR has a TON more content because the leveling storyline experience goes all the way to 50. Edited January 12, 2012 by Drallbait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadtoArkham Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 No, it isn't doomed. An mmo > 150-250k subscribers is a successful mmo. If FFXIV hasn't died yet then SWTOR certainly won't. Best argument yet lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinzouningen Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 perhaps just perhaps and bare with me here people are mad at spending 60-150 dollars (plus MANY like me a nice stack of cash on a new computer) (plus many others who bought swtor mice/keyboard etc) on a lack luster beta version. All they had to do was push the release date back, but they sacrificed product quality for timing so they could beat "pandas" or whatever the heck you guys always rant on about. Or stop wasting so much damn time on voice acting for side quests that mean literally nothing to the rest of the game. i really like this one..im sure the bugs werent just discovered by a rag tag group of players during early play and launch time. i mean come on. And yeah that burn from (like my bro in law) buying the collectors ed. (which he didnt have to) and buying a crap load of upgrades cuz man we're gonna be playing this for a while.! ( nope) I bought around $200 in upgrades he did around $500-$600 ( stupid sli dual vid card guy) and it kind of stings when youre not enjoying it like you hoped. And yeah this game is for some people but its def. not for an equal number of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sech Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Well, I played WoW before release and at release and for 5 more years and it shocks me to hear you thought it was itemized and had content to max level? It shipped with no PvP system, Molten Core and Onyxia for End Game content. The amount of whining about that fact when WoW shipped was almost on par with the amount of whining in the SWTOR forums. The only difference is you had these ridiculous time sinks like "Go grind Fire mats and Dark Iron Ore for 1000 hours to outfit your guid for Lava Packs and Ragnaros!" Which is what folks like you seem to like. Blizzard had to cut that out because it hurt the casual market. We ran UBRS to gear people out for MC and Onyxia, I never said it released with Onyxia and MC I just said the content took longer to clear and I felt satisfaction after we cleared it. Time sinks are a part of an MMO, there's no way to release enough content fast enough to keep people playing for years without time sinks. That's just a simple fact. No development studio no matter how large unless they invest billions can make easy 1-2 week clearable content on a monthly basis to keep up with people clearing it without time sinks. Impossible. The game needs difficult content and time consuming activities otherwise people will get bored and leave. Let's just assume you level all your alts and just do super casual story stuff How long will that keep you entertained? How long do you think it will take you to level 3-4 alts to 50? 3 months maybe? what then? You use one of those 50's to raid and get decked out in 2 weeks? Then you get bored too. This discussion to me isn't even about the game, i honestly think BW realizes this and will fix PVP and release harder more time consuming raid content. I just honestly believe that the so called "casual craze" is ruining gaming and is a bubble. I think the craze has overly influenced developers and they now assume that the majority was super easy content that gives you no satisfaction to clear. We need more impossibly hard games like Demon souls and super difficult raids. I'm not saying they need to be 40 man raids where the main difficulty is getting 40 people online. But I do think they need to take months to clear. Edited January 12, 2012 by Sech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfabulous Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 i really like this one..im sure the bugs werent just discovered by a rag tag group of players during early play and launch time. i mean come on. And yeah that burn from (like my bro in law) buying the collectors ed. (which he didnt have to) and buying a crap load of upgrades cuz man we're gonna be playing this for a while.! ( nope) I bought around $200 in upgrades he did around $500-$600 ( stupid sli dual vid card guy) and it kind of stings when youre not enjoying it like you hoped. And yeah this game is for some people but its def. not for an equal number of people. I said it yesterday I think Me and my step brother spent in total 2200 towards this game, and both are equally baffeled by how let down we were. We had been talking non stop about it since the whole "oh snap a kotor 3' thing went around (idk how long ago that was , long time tho) As well as my personal vent user base (aka my rl friends) all went out and did very similar except for a few who had rigs already. In total between about 18 people (counting the people with comps already) we spent around 15 grand towards a beta. Perhaps someone can see the frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talligan Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Best argument yet lol Ty Spending $60 on that piece of garbage has made me wary of purchasing other mmo's. But I'm glad I took a chance with SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drallbait Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 We ran UBRS to gear people out for MC and Onyxia, I never said it released with Onyxia and MC I just said the content took longer to clear and I felt satisfaction after we cleared it. Time sinks are a part of an MMO, there's no way to release enough content fast enough to keep people playing for years without time sinks. That's just a simple fact. No development studio no matter how large unless they invest billions can make easy 1-2 week clearable content on a monthly basis to keep up with people clearing it without time sinks. Impossible. The game needs difficult content and time consuming activities otherwise people will get bored and leave. You were probably Alliance and had the easy mode version of the Onyxia pre-requisite quest. LBRS played heavily into that nightmare for Horde... Time sinks are avoidable, and have been in SWTOR. I'm not worried if you get bored. They will continue to pump out content and I expect they do a ton more with the World Storyline, which might even attract you back for a couple months. That is how you get big numbers in a game like WoW - the statistical average of large groups of people coming and going. If SWTOR can attract more addicted, long-term MMOers as well - that is great too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinzouningen Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hmmm you are wrong... WoW at launch had around 300k people and lots of bugs / problems to be solved. Actually it was only after TBC that it started to be the "monster" it is today. If you had played WoW on Vanilla it would take 2-3 hours to get a group to run an instance at level 60. You would only raid if you had a guild... a big guild, since raids were 40 man. Oh, and MC, the first true "raiding content" was only released 6 months after the game launched, on patch 1.4.0. Before that the only available raids were UBRS and LBRS. So if WoW was launched today, the original WoW, not this one that has 7 years already, a consolidated player base, solid bug fixing and a lot of new content you would face a much worst game than TOR is. Believe me, I was there on day 1. yeah, i wasnt there from day 1 or day -1 i got in when the 40 mans were going on which , to me , was great. yeah you had to be in a guild for it but bugs aside ( i wasnt there for the bugs the poster knows about) but youre talking about running a raid with 39 other people..and AND still being people in your guild to sub in? and thats just 1 guild? I ran with that guild on that server , quit with a few friends and went to another guild on the same server same faction..and was still doing 40 man raids? like 3-4 times a week? and other guilds were doing that too? This isnt 7yrs in the future.. but yeah im hitting at population. swtor story is great i love a good story but i mean just the grouping to me was fun and the ability to do it often. I didnt see the 2 or 3 hrs to get a group for Mara or blackrock or something people were at that lvl and rdy to go..it took you 2 hrs to do blackrock. but any way im talking about population which makes a game an mmo not a co-op..not mario party... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sech Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 You were probably Alliance and had the easy mode version of the Onyxia pre-requisite quest. LBRS played heavily into that nightmare for Horde... Time sinks are avoidable, and have been in SWTOR. I'm not worried if you get bored. They will continue to pump out content and I expect they do a ton more with the World Storyline, which might even attract you back for a couple months. That is how you get big numbers in a game like WoW - the statistical average of large groups of people coming and going. If SWTOR can attract more addicted, long-term MMOers as well - that is great too. Alliance for awhile, switched to horde and did it all over again. Mage, Horde Illidan then some other server I forgot then quel dorei with friends. Stayed there in a top end guild for 5 years. Cleared everything up to the start of Icewing citidel or whatever it was killed. Kill Illidan, took forever. Hundreds of wipes. Loved it. Quit a little after Wrath was released when I decided I needed to dedicate less time, but now I'm ready to start up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sech Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) yeah, i wasnt there from day 1 or day -1 i got in when the 40 mans were going on which , to me , was great. yeah you had to be in a guild for it but bugs aside ( i wasnt there for the bugs the poster knows about) but youre talking about running a raid with 39 other people..and AND still being people in your guild to sub in? and thats just 1 guild? I ran with that guild on that server , quit with a few friends and went to another guild on the same server same faction..and was still doing 40 man raids? like 3-4 times a week? and other guilds were doing that too? This isnt 7yrs in the future.. but yeah im hitting at population. swtor story is great i love a good story but i mean just the grouping to me was fun and the ability to do it often. I didnt see the 2 or 3 hrs to get a group for Mara or blackrock or something people were at that lvl and rdy to go..it took you 2 hrs to do blackrock. but any way im talking about population which makes a game an mmo not a co-op..not mario party... This. BTW time sinks haven't been avoidable in SWTOR at all. BW just wasn't smart enough to put any in. That's why it's super easy to get all your affection up with companion, leveling crew skills takes 1 day of work and some credits. HUNDREDS of people on my server, if not 1000+ are 50 have full crew skills, have full affection, have full pvp sets, have full raid sets, and are bored. Ya, sure, BW didn't put time sinks in, but now everyone is done has all the same gear and is bored. So ya...that worked out.... The point is, epics used to mean something....now they are basically standard... Edited January 12, 2012 by Sech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraxture Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I said it yesterday I think Me and my step brother spent in total 2200 towards this game, and both are equally baffeled by how let down we were. We had been talking non stop about it since the whole "oh snap a kotor 3' thing went around (idk how long ago that was , long time tho) As well as my personal vent user base (aka my rl friends) all went out and did very similar except for a few who had rigs already. In total between about 18 people (counting the people with comps already) we spent around 15 grand towards a beta. Perhaps someone can see the frustration. So you are saying these rigs are useless now and can serve no other purpose? Hmm..can I have your rig then? I would be glad to take it off your hands. I did the same for AOC, and though the game didn't hold water for me. I still enjoyed my new setup. Sorry the game didn't work for you. But BW cannot be blamed for yours or my lack of ability to do some research on the game, or on what we do with our hard earned cash. Edited January 12, 2012 by Fraxture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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