overwhelming proof of intentional FACTION imbalaning on some DEVS part .. imho ...

[Drakaris]

Not contradicting the video, but I had a question.

 

During that 1second-ish delay, can the JC continue casting? Because if that's the case, the damage over time for an actual fight would be the same for both classes, and the burst would be higher for JC, allowing to "merge" 2 attack reg into one.

 

The only difference that would make would be during last hits, when someone could use that window to last hit you before dying from the reg delay.

 

Well you asked the question and you answered it yourself. In the beginning of the fight it may seem that the JC will get the bigger burst due to "merging" of two skills. The dmg comes 1,7 sec after the initial cast (depending on the distance) which means +0,2 sec more than a GCD. And you can begin casting while the rock is still flying (sounds ridiculous, isn't it?). So in this case it doesn't make much difference since you both will receive the same amount of dmg for the same time. But when things get nasty and this is actually a finishing hit, this is when it becomes gamebreaking for the sage. Because 1,7-2 sec is enough to raise your shield, use stealth (you know - the floating rocks and droids just because some sin or operative went in stealth right before the rock hits him...) or even heal. And this is a gamebreaking issue because it completely changes the sage's gameplay.

 

Oke I might have to grant you the impact dmg delay. Although hardly a huge delay and I'll test it for myself ofc to see it is not in someway related to general delays or ability delays (the game is in NO way perfect yet, and in hectic pvp fights I can make my casts do things they reallt shouldn't be able to do... this 'example' might just have been one of those moments)

 

No, it's not a "general delay". Test it. You will see.

 

For the comments of "doesn't this make it better" : not really, consulars can have the dmg overlap with the thing they cast after impact, but sorcs get it the other way around: you hit shock AFTER you've opened with a cast time, to make both spells hit basically simultaneously. So the difference isn't huge, your dmg will always land anyway, even on peopel leaving range *this is an assumption* (Ive never been able to get away from already traveling missiles or other things .. And i've tried quite a bit... missiles will acttualy chase you and make turns etc when you force speed round the corner) that is why i always classified the rocks at not having travel time : they never follow me when i run. I'll roll a jedi and test a bit.

 

Like i answered the guy above - it may seem like we get the bigger burst in the beginning of a fight, at the end it's actually the same, so not so big deal. But at the end of a fight when it becomes crucial to kill the opponent before he uses a life saving skill or worse - a skill to actually kill you - you rely on this "instant" skill (it does quite a lot of dmg, especially on double procs). This is actually gamebreaking. Yes, the rock will "chase" you. But as i said - while it chases you, you may heal, stealth, use shield etc. thus denying the dmg completely.

 

BUT.

You don't think I will let you get away with shooting holes in my post and then ignoring the important bit !

 

Consulars > sorcs because of the 31 talent bug!!!!!!!!

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=138142

 

You shoot holes in your post by yourself, dude. Naturally, assuming your issue is more "important" than mine or everyone else's...

 

Let's make few things clear.

 

First - this is a bug. Bugs get fixed. So don't worry, you'll get your heal fixed.

 

Second - you're talking about a 31 point talent which is a specific build and is only for a full time healer. Guess what - some of us don't even know that because... we're not healers?

 

And Project/Shock are "core skills" (try to comprehend the word "core" skill). They affect the performance of the whole archetype - Consular vs Inquisitor. Thus affecting the ACs differently - Sage vs Sorc and Shadow vs Assassin. Project delay is actually not a bug - it's a game mechanic - your character pulls a rock from the ground, then waves his/her hands in the air, shoots the rock at you, the rock starts flying and when it impacts with the target - the damage is delivered. Alas, that's not the case with Shock which instantly delivers the same amount of dmg... instantly. So in order to fix a "CORE" skill - they have to rework the whole mechanic of the skill. Either make Project dmg register instantly or add the same delay to Shock and add an animation, for example "conjuring the lightning shock while waving your hands and then throwing a little ball of lightning at someone".

 

Did you get it? A 31 point "bugged" talent is easy to fix. A broken core skill mechanic for 2 classes - completely different scenario.

 

Now STOP complaining about shock vs impact !! You actually have a bug/differences that effects dps/hps, and not just a silly timeing issue.

 

Now stop complaining about a "bugged talent" which requires 31 points and most of the sages never spec. It affects only one class with one particular build, not the whole archetype. Yes, we have a "bug" here, not denying it, if you're a healer - big deal i suppose, i wouldn't know, i don't care about healing at all. But the "silly timing issue" can kill you or get you killed. For example my double Project can deliver 4k+ dmg. When you pop your shield and nullify it or when an assassin vanishes and my rocks are floating mid-air, my CD is used and my dmg was not delivered - that's a pretty big deal.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Drakaris

[Westwacht]

You do realize that you can start moving right after the 3rd mortar leaves right? Without losing any damage. BH's can't do that with Death from Above.

 

 

And this is Relevant how exactly? Did I mispost in the PvE forums by mistake? My bad...

 

I'll say this. If one is an Empire player and one is ever hit by Mortar Strike while not tagging an objective, one should seriously think about sticking to PvE content.

[cashogy]

Death from Above isn't instant, we have to fly to the right height first before firing, which looks to me to be about equal to the delay on the Trooper equivalent.

 

wrong.

 

death from above lasts 3 seconds, as described. working as intended.

 

mortar volley lasts at least 5 seconds, with the actual attack not starting until 2 full seconds into the channel. sure you can move the moment the third projectile leaves, but it still takes longer than DFA

 

 

video for emphasizing my point

Edited January 17, 2012 by cashogy

[Spiggeh]

Ok I think we have established that there are indeed issues which need resolving.

 

 

What I think the community should be doing instead of debating it is demanding answers from BW as to why they are here in the first place and then why they haven't fixed them yet?

 

 

 

The proof is there guys stop trying to cover it just accept that the Empire has an unfair advantage at this moment in time.

 

 

 

Hey if you REALLY wanted to take a stand you know all the Republic players could refuse to PvP until they fix these issues? I mean how can the Empire PvP if the Republic refuse to meet them in battle?

 

 

Just a thought.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Spiggeh

[Asnine]

And this is Relevant how exactly? Did I mispost in the PvE forums by mistake? My bad...

 

I'll say this. If one is an Empire player and one is ever hit by Mortar Strike while not tagging an objective, one should seriously think about sticking to PvE content.

 

Oh because being able to start moving / being more mobile has NOTHING to do with pvp.

 

 

Get a clue.

[kodec]

wrong.

 

death from above lasts 3 seconds, as described. working as intended.

 

mortar volley lasts at least 5 seconds, with the actual attack not starting until 2 full seconds into the channel. sure you can move the moment the third projectile leaves, but it still takes longer than DFA

 

 

video for emphasizing my point

 

this pretty much settles this dispute. It's obviously slower, no point arguing about it anymore

[lethal_ghost]

Omg empire need less xp to get too 50 no wonder there are so many 50's on empire side in wz

[Posiden]

Just too add more fire to the flames:

 

Kolto Bomb vs. Kolto Missile

 

The animation for Kolto Missile moves a lot faster, its a missile thats shot from the wrist. While with Kolto Bomb the Trooper has to move his arm all the way back back and then bring it all the way forward to throw it, the heal goes off when the grenade hits the gound.

 

I watched a raid video of a healing Mercenary and was shocked at how much faster the animation was.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Posiden

[Darth_Philar]

Under no circumstances should they mirror the classes cross faction.

 

Should they try to balance out the differences? Sure.

Should they fix actual bugs? Absolutely.

 

Making the Republic and Empire classes exact mirrors would ruin the flavor.

[Posiden]

Under no circumstances should they mirror the classes cross faction.

 

Should they try to balance out the differences? Sure.

Should they fix actual bugs? Absolutely.

 

Making the Republic and Empire classes exact mirrors would ruin the flavor.

 

It isn't flavor at all. Its cases where abilities that are supposed to be equal are better because of faster animations.

[inseeisyou]

It isn't flavor at all. Its cases where abilities that are supposed to be equal are better because of faster animations.

 

Sig says it all. But what can you expect, of course the folks benefiting from the imbalance will come up with 1001 reasons not to change it...

[Jellison]

lol at all the Empire saying its not true. All the videos on Youtube must be fake!!

 

IT'S ALL A LIE, A CONSPIRACY I TELL YOU! IT'S THE TURTLE ALIENS WORKING WITH THE GOVERNMENT TO RUIN OUR YOUTUBE VIDEOS SO WE CAN'T TELL RIGHT FROM WRONG! WELL I WON'T STAND FOR I-*banned*

[Westwacht]

Oh because being able to start moving / being more mobile has NOTHING to do with pvp.

 

 

Get a clue.

 

I'm sorry, did i hit your sweet spot? You need some tissue paper or something?

 

I also have some boxes of "reading comprehension", maybe you want to give those a try. Or elaborate the point you are trying to make. Because if I understand you correctly, I think the clue would be of more help to yourself.

 

Seeing as you have almost 3 seconds to move out of the Mortar Strike warning reticule, you have to be a "special person" to get hit by it.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Westwacht

[Darth_Philar]

Sig says it all. But what can you expect, of course the folks benefiting from the imbalance will come up with 1001 reasons not to change it...

 

Where exactly did I state that I want the game to be imbalanced? In fact, I very specifically stated that I wanted balance and bug fixes, but in a way that retains the flavor of different classes for different factions.

 

Going with WoW's "we are totally different, but only because we have a red flag and you have a blue flag" model drains all the flavor from even having a faction. You may as well lump everyone into the same "happy imerial alliance of republics" and be done with it.

[Asnine]

I'm sorry, did i hit your sweet spot? You need some tissue paper or something?

 

I also have some boxes of "reading comprehension", maybe you want to give those a try. Or elaborate the point you are trying to make. Because if I understand you correctly, I think the clue would be of more help to yourself.

 

Seeing as you have almost 3 seconds to move out of the Mortar Strike warning reticule, you have to be a "special person" to get hit by it.

 

I never get hit by DfA either. What's your point?

 

I've already acknowledged that a difference exists. If you bothered to read my second post about it, you would see that personally I don't think it's a big deal GIVEN THE SITUATIONS you would be using either skill in.

 

Of course for the idiots that try to use either skill against single targets, I can understand the pain. Sounds like you're one of them.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Asnine

[da_krall]

Where exactly did I state that I want the game to be imbalanced? In fact, I very specifically stated that I wanted balance and bug fixes, but in a way that retains the flavor of different classes for different factions.

 

Going with WoW's "we are totally different, but only because we have a red flag and you have a blue flag" model drains all the flavor from even having a faction. You may as well lump everyone into the same "happy imerial alliance of republics" and be done with it.

 

The classes are mirror classes, dont try to justify bugs and bad implementation on 'flavour'. Its Biowares job to come up with the crap excuses why basic things are so wrong...

Edited January 17, 2012 by da_krall

[Westwacht]

I never get hit by DfA either. What's your point?

 

I've already acknowledged that a difference exists. If you bothered to read my second post about it, you would see that personally I don't think it's a big deal GIVEN THE SITUATIONS you would be using either skill in.

 

Of course for the idiots that try to use either skill against single targets, I can understand the pain. Sounds like you're one of them.

 

It appears i have to apologize again for asking the relevance of when one is able to move when channeling the ability. I'm still waiting for your answer to that.

 

Good for you if you don't get hit by DfA. Guess there aren't that many situation in Hutball when the ability is actually usefull, eh?

 

So you don't think twice the warning time before the damage arrives given the situations is not a big deal? Thats an interesting statement on you position on balance...

[Drahh]

wow. . I give this thread +1 Most of this is true.

[Asnine]

It appears i have to apologize again for asking the relevance of when one is able to move when channeling the ability. I'm still waiting for your answer to that.

 

Good for you if you don't get hit by DfA. Guess there aren't that many situation in Hutball when the ability is actually usefull, eh?

 

So you don't think twice the warning time before the damage arrives given the situations is not a big deal? Thats an interesting statement on you position on balance...

 

FFS do you know how to read? The ONLY time you should be using either ability is when there's a mass of (enemy) players clumped together. Anyone with half a brain cell of awareness should be able to dodge EITHER one easily. Does a difference/imbalance exist? Absolutely. Is it really that big a deal? No.

 

 

As for being able to move BEFORE THE CHANNEL ends: I guess you can't see the value of not being rooted in one place for the full channel vs being rooted in one place for the full channel duration. If you can't understand the advantage in channelling it, FINISHING THE DAMAGE BEFORE THE CHANNEL IS OVER, moving to cancel the channel and getting off another ability, well then, I don't know what to tell you.

[Westwacht]

FFS do you know how to read? The ONLY time you should be using either ability is when there's a mass of (enemy) players clumped together. Anyone with half a brain cell of awareness should be able to dodge EITHER one easily. Does a difference/imbalance exist? Absolutely. Is it really that big a deal? No.

 

 

As for being able to move BEFORE THE CHANNEL ends: I guess you can't see the value of not being rooted in one place for the full channel vs being rooted in one place for the full channel duration. If you can't understand the advantage in channelling it, FINISHING THE DAMAGE BEFORE THE CHANNEL IS OVER, moving to cancel the channel and getting off another ability, well then, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Right, Captain Obvious HO! I don't understand your fixation on using DfA/MV abilities on single targets. Why would anyone do that with an ability on a 1 min cd in a Warzone? If you are near the center of DfA you will get hit once while leaving the area. If you are near the center of Mortar Volley, you can casually stroll out, get a coffee and still not get hit by any damage easy.

 

Okay, so the trooper can move before the channel ends. Might as well not use it at all, seeing it wont do any damage until the first projectile is launched after 2 sec channeling.

 

Anyway, I acknowledge the points you are trying to make but I still disagree with you.

[vsalcedo]

Right, Captain Obvious HO! I don't understand your fixation on using DfA/MV abilities on single targets. Why would anyone do that with an ability on a 1 min cd in a Warzone? If you are near the center of DfA you will get hit once while leaving the area. If you are near the center of Mortar Volley, you can casually stroll out, get a coffee and still not get hit by any damage easy.

 

Okay, so the trooper can move before the channel ends. Might as well not use it at all, seeing it wont do any damage until the first projectile is launched after 2 sec channeling.

 

Anyway, I acknowledge the points you are trying to make but I still disagree with you.

 

You troopers are *****ign and moaning over 1 ability yet commandos can hit just as hard as a dps on your damn heal spec. While BH can't and the vanguard spec of yours hits way harder then the BH defensive spec. Troopers have it easy but no one acknowledges it, I don't see nerf commando healing dps spec for pvp's sake. YOU STILL HIT LIKE A DAMN TRUCK.

[Tankxor]

Have you ever noticed people die before you see the damage or the animation? It's because the game takes into account the damage done before you see it or the animation completes. Therefore every ability is the same. Some of the thing you said are correct but most of the faction imbalances are just misunderstandings.

[Igraat]

I have 50 Agent and a 16 Smuggler and I have noticed my Smuggler toon taking time to pull out the Scattergun to execute the ability, whereas my Agent does not have to take as much time---visually.

 

If the game depends on an animation's conclusion to execute abilities; it follows any class who has dull and short animations may have an advantage to ones who have the flashier animations.

 

I recall a guildie who is a Sith Juggernaut saying something about an animation getting bugged, the ability would not go off.

[Telos]

i agree... it has been my experience that the devs love the horde, and only seek to punish the alliance.

[Tarkastio]

You have no clue what you are talking about. Do you play ANY of the classes mentioned??

 

Yes, I have.