Open question to all Sents

[thanealpha]

It seems to me we're approaching a point where there are two types of Sent players.

 

A>Those who feel weaker relative to other classes.

B>Those who believe type A are a bunch of whiny players who need to learn how to play.

 

So my questions to the As:

 

Have you reached L50 and L40 Valor?

Have you tried Watchman spec?

 

And my question to the Bs:

 

Have you reached L50 and L40 Valor?

Have you tried the Combat spec?

 

I think if we look at ONLY the people who say yes to their first question, we may find an interesting trend from the second questions.

 

Every day I'm coming to believe more and more that the CLASS isn't broken, but that Combat is what is weaker than Watchman. Again, all other things being equal.

 

I have some hypothesis about why this is true...but I won't bother with those details right now. For now I'm just curious what people think.

 

Is it broken Knight? Is it broken Sent? Is it broken Combat? Is it elite players vs clueless nubs?

 

I consider myself a reasonably skilled player, and I'm in NO way new to PvP fighting. But I'm coming to the conclusion that Combat is a rough spec bordering on outright broken when looked at comparitively.

Edited January 11, 2012 by thanealpha

[EasymodeX]

And my question to the Bs:

 

Have you reached L50 and L40 Valor?

Have you tried the Combat spec?

 

I think if we look at ONLY the people who say yes to their first question, we may find an interesting trend from the second questions.

 

Every day I'm coming to believe more and more that the CLASS isn't broken, but that Combat is what is weaker than Watchman. Again, all other things being equal.

 

 

Huh, you're trying too hard. For your questions specifically:

 

1. Yes.

2. Yes, I ran Combat for about 20 or so Valor ranks after I picked up my 136 weapons.

 

 

The class is inherently "not broken".

 

Things that are broken:

 

1. UI. Sents rely significantly on the execution of their defensive cooldowns and on actually unloading when they have the opportunity to unload. UI and client-server bugs, errors, and latency impact Sent gameplay significantly.

 

2. Resolve. Derp de derp.

 

3. Combat.

 

Yes, Combat is slightly underpar. And I say "slightly". It has inherent weaknesses in a pug PvP format, but that is OK. It's imbalanced weakness has to do with its raw lack of potency, but this requires minor tuning at best -- a minor tweak or two to Precision Slash here, a minor tweak to Ataru scaling there, and it's just about good to go. Generally speaking, people need to use realize that pug vs. pug Warzones significantly favor Watchman and Focus. Combat begins to come ahead in real performance when you have a good premade assist train against an opponent premade + assist train.

 

 

But, circling back to the original topic, the "A" players are just average. A melee DPS class that has to deal with UI issues and a map design like Huttball requires above average players to meet minimum performance requirements.

 

A random mediocre Sentinel will perform poorly compared to a random mediocre Sage/Sorc/BH/Trooper/Scrapper/Op.

[Talorra]

B.

 

Yes to level 50, no to 40 valor. I don't care much for PvP and I am not very good at it. I think I'm at 16 or 17 valor.

 

No, I have not tried combat. I'm a PvE raider and watchman looked to be the best spec for what I do. I picked it up at 10 and haven't looked back.

 

And for the record, I don't think people are whining... but many are refusing to take tips and suggestions and just want it easier. This class will be truly ruined if it ever comes to standing still and spamming an attack until something dies

[Vember]

I think another, and more important question to ask, for the "A's", is:

 

Is this sent your first character?

 

I leveled up a shadow first, and to be honest, I can't fathom the majority of the complaints I read in here about the sentinel class. I solo far, far better on my sentinel than my shadow ever could, taking down mobs my shadow couldn't survive against at the same level, with both having access to crit blue cybertech mods and full sets of orange gear. Some of that I attribute to the shadow being my "learning" class, so to speak. Having a better understanding of the game and its mechanics, now, on my sent, I'm just flat out tearing stuff up. I rarely, rarely EVER die while questing, usually only if a pull involves more than one gold.

 

I'm watchman, use T7 almost exclusively. I also have no trouble in pvp, 1 on 1 against a 50' even if I lose, its still close.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Vember

[Alkolyk]

1. Yes

2. Yes, I ran mostly Watchmen and a bit of Focus.

 

I agree with what EasymodeX said,

 

Watchmen is easy mode on pug vs pug (and lots of fun).

 

Watchmen and focus sentinel are definitly not "underpowered", they perform very well in their respective roles. I'm having a blast.

 

When I'm on fire in BGs i'm definitly in a trance and I rarely have to concentrate and keep track of so many cooldowns but it feels awesome.

 

I can see why the normal player just doesn't cut it. He's better off rolling something that has range and is a bit more forgiving.

 

 

 

 

 

Huh, you're trying too hard. For your questions specifically:

 

1. Yes.

2. Yes, I ran Combat for about 20 or so Valor ranks after I picked up my 136 weapons.

 

 

The class is inherently "not broken".

 

Things that are broken:

 

1. UI. Sents rely significantly on the execution of their defensive cooldowns and on actually unloading when they have the opportunity to unload. UI and client-server bugs, errors, and latency impact Sent gameplay significantly.

 

2. Resolve. Derp de derp.

 

3. Combat.

 

Yes, Combat is slightly underpar. And I say "slightly". It has inherent weaknesses in a pug PvP format, but that is OK. It's imbalanced weakness has to do with its raw lack of potency, but this requires minor tuning at best -- a minor tweak or two to Precision Slash here, a minor tweak to Ataru scaling there, and it's just about good to go. Generally speaking, people need to use realize that pug vs. pug Warzones significantly favor Watchman and Focus. Combat begins to come ahead in real performance when you have a good premade assist train against an opponent premade + assist train.

 

 

But, circling back to the original topic, the "A" players are just average. A melee DPS class that has to deal with UI issues and a map design like Huttball requires above average players to meet minimum performance requirements.

 

A random mediocre Sentinel will perform poorly compared to a random mediocre Sage/Sorc/BH/Trooper/Scrapper/Op.

[Crabbok]

I"m level 50, currently at 47 Valor. I am watchman specced, and I do feel that Sentinel is lacking in the DPS department.

 

 

I currently have just about 300 Expertise on my PVP gear, and can break 300K damage, but more often than not I am outscored by other classes that have multiple roles, IE sages, commandos, and scoundrels.

i

If we are a one-trick pony, then we need to be the best at that particular trick, (Maybe tied with gunslingers). Not only do we have the disadvantage of being only mediocre at DPS when compared to other multi-role classes, but we also have the immense disadvantage of being a melee class, Which means that when you start doing operations you are going to hate life.

 

I really wish we had had some of the following tweaks:

 

• Greatly increase the damage from Dispatch - like triple the current damage value.
  
• Increase damage across the board, especially for any abilities that consume focus.
  
• Make Master Strike actually worth the etremely long animation time. Like give it a 5K hit at the end.
  
• a Temp that allows us to ignore damage from a target if we are behind that target, maybe 10 second duration with a 1 minute cooldown. IE stay behind the mob in melee range a little longer.
  
• Some kind of knockback prevention for PVP. Huttball makes me want to cry sometimes.
  
• A CC immunity. I wish our CC break had a short CC immunity attatched to it, because breaking your stun only to INSTANTLY be stunned again is awful.
  

 

And of course we need combat logs to parse data.

[thanealpha]

B.

 

Yes to level 50, no to 40 valor. I don't care much for PvP and I am not very good at it. I think I'm at 16 or 17 valor.

 

No, I have not tried combat. I'm a PvE raider and watchman looked to be the best spec for what I do. I picked it up at 10 and haven't looked back.

 

And for the record, I don't think people are whining... but many are refusing to take tips and suggestions and just want it easier. This class will be truly ruined if it ever comes to standing still and spamming an attack until something dies

 

 

I think there is a pretty vocal group of people who are really strenuous about their calling out people with concerns about the Sent class as people who can't play. Somehow as if their experiences and opinion are somehow MORE valid than the other side.

 

I've tried literally EVERY suggestion and MANY tactics of my own devising to make Combat work. But when I see 500k damage totals from Watchman specs and I RARELY if ever hit 200k in a warfront with Sent I have to wonder where is all that extra damage coming from?

 

Granted, I tend to care about winning the warfront over dealing max damage, but those 200ks are RARE and the fact that a watchman build could do 2.5Xs the damage in the same amount of time is just mindblowing to me.

 

Again, I'm not new to this. I know my way around mmos and pvp. But the difference seems to be pronounced to me....

 

UNLESS Watchman is the answer...I see nearly every person who claims Sent to not be broken to use Watchman. That's what brings me to think Combat is somehow to blame.

 

(although some part of it may be the way player defenses are cut through by fire and not by weapon damage...)

[Fascion]

here.

 

Yes, I've been 50 for quite a while now.

 

I was a Combat spec when I hit 50 (from 35ish?) and respec'd Watchman shortly thereafter. Went back to Combat for exactly 3 hours, then right back to Watchman. Force Kick cooldown reduction is simply too vital for PvE and I don't feel like shelling out the money to respec every time I want to run a HM FP. That was the full extent for the basis of my decision to stay Watchman. Truth be told, aside from the insane buffs to Transcendence, I actually preferred Combat in many ways for PvP.

 

 

If we are a one-trick pony, then we need to be the best at that particular trick, (Maybe tied with gunslingers).

I feel as though we already are "best" at something. That thing being... mobility. Not the most glorious thing in the world, I know... but something that I feel a lot of players underestimate or completely write off. Today alone I have solo-cap'd Huttballs three times... nary a single member of my team on the enemy's half of the map... from center, walked it on in without an ounce of assistance. Lost both games, though and if you read in between the lines in the above, you already know why.

[EasymodeX]

But when I see 500k damage totals from Watchman specs and I RARELY if ever hit 200k in a warfront with Sent I have to wonder where is all that extra damage coming from?

 

You should hit 350k in Combat compared to someone hitting 500k in Watchman.

 

That you are reaching only 200k means you, your gear, your team, or something else is deficient.

[McDaniels]

I'm level 50 valor 61.

 

Watchman is better than combat for pvp, but both are viable. For the sake of this argument we should not evaluate sentinel in pvp, instead we should evaluate it by spec, so as a valor 60 sentinel, and a pretty good one at least in my own opinion, here is my analysis:

 

Watchman sentinels are a strong pvp class.

 

Combat sentinels are slightly below average.

 

Why:

 

Watchman: Watchman does more raw damage than combat. Trust me I've played both specs extensively and I used to think they were pretty close, but watchman is just better in terms of damage. It's hard to tell without parsers, but when you've played as much as me you know.

 

Secondly watchman can offer a huge movement speed buff to their group through transcendence. Any PvP oriented watchman specs need to have the transcendence talent if you don't you're either an egotistical stat-padder or you're doing it wrong. With that talent transcendence is borderline OP and will be huge in ranked warzones.

 

Thirdly zen heals give us a third survivability option.

 

As a sentinel we have three survivability/escape mechanisms. First we have our in combat stealth, second we have guarded by the foce (I always follow guarded by the force by using my rakata medpac) and thirdly as watchman you have your heals. I evaluate these abilities based on the amount of time they save you, keep you alive for, or allow you to stay on target for. Guarded by the force +medpac is clearly best, but watchman heals really do add up significantly in a fight and popping zen after guarded by the force + a medpac is, again, borderline OP.

 

Third point: Watchman can break stealthers super easy by dotting them, combat can as well but its really a waste of a gcd to use cauterize in combat spec.

 

Fourth and MOST SIGNIFICANT POINT: valor is the best talent for our class. Building 4 centering per focus spender is HUGE... Additionally you need to have 2 points in quick recovery allowing you to gain 4 centering for 1 focus and you don't even need to be in combat or have a target... I swear i can have transcendence up on my group for about 50% of a warzone in my spec, or I can get zen up for heals when my group needs them.

 

 

Regarding combat:

 

Combat is a viable spec, you can do well with it, but in my opinion it requires you to just be better or have a better team than what you're up against, it won't be effective in ranked warzones.

 

Combat is less bursty than watchman with the exception of MAYBE when you get zen up and have precision slash up and can pound away blade rushes, even then though I'm not sure if that dps is as high as watchman with zen up, but overall watchman is just much higher because zen comes up for watchman WAY more.

 

Combat has one advantage over watchman and that is more roots, you're less kiteable in combat spec because crippling throw gives you a nice root and so does master strike although any player who knows our class mechanics would interrupt it.

 

CONCLUSION:

 

Watchman is just better both from a dps/slayer perspective and from a team support perspective.

 

Combat can be played well and do well in the right hands/against bad players, but any player using combat in pvp will do better with watchman.

[EasymodeX]

That's a good summary.

 

McDaniels officially Doesn't Suck™.

[MBirkhofer]

i cant imagine wth kindof game any of you are playing that you do over 200k.

 

I average 100k.

 

5-6k a person. 10-15k vs a double healed person.

Try winning instead of farming numbers.

[thanealpha]

I agree with the fact that Combat is VERY mobile. In fact in a lot of ways (and I was just chatting about this with my friends) it feels TOO mobile...why?

 

Because with that mobility comes a lack of explosive power.

 

In nearly every other melee dps role in nearly every other mmo if you can get TO your opponent and stay in the hit box while engaged , i.e. not let them kite you or just get away, then they should explode. The skill is in position and skill sequencing to a> remain in position and b> hurt them real bad.

 

I don't feel that way with Combat. I need to bash on them for a long time...sometimes far too long because they can either drop me faster if they stay and fight, or heal up if they try and delay, or force me to go defensive...which is the WORST thing in the world IMHO.

 

I just thought combat would really cater to my playstyle best, and it honestly doesn't feel like it has a clearly designed playstyle. You're mobile...yay...now what? I honestly don't feel like a dps class a lot of the time.

[thanealpha]

Combat is a viable spec, you can do well with it, but in my opinion it requires you to just be better or have a better team than what you're up against, it won't be effective in ranked warzones..

 

If a spec requires that you be more skilled than your opponents to be effective then it's NOT a viable spec.

 

Viable should be spec's that put you on EVEN par with people relatively similarly skilled and equipped.

 

I see this argument too often about Sents. IF you're a better player than your opponent the Sent class is fine...

 

Well, duh.

 

But what if you do a direct comparison between the most skilled v the most skilled. Or the average v the average.

 

Then how does Sent hold up?

Then how does Combat hold up?

 

Not so well IMHO.

[tk-fourtwentyone]

McDaniels is right.

 

 

level 50 - Valor 53 in case anyone cares.

 

 

 

I've gone into warzones after switching to watchman and just facerolled 6 keys (overcharge, cautherize etc etc) and beat my average combat dps by about 15% and my healing was 60k higher. I managed to get 'invincible' solo with out external healing - something I never really do as combat. As an aside, I got similar damage as focus, though fewer kills (more aoe - less direct damage etc)

 

Overall I think watchmen is slightly better and is slightly harder to play well.

 

I still love combat and I've swtiched back. The difference isn't so huge that I want to change my playstyle completely and re-learn everything from scratch. (watchman feels like more work) I love being able to switch targets on the fly and not have to do a bunch of set up.

[McDaniels]

If a spec requires that you be more skilled than your opponents to be effective then it's NOT a viable spec.

 

Viable should be spec's that put you on EVEN par with people relatively similarly skilled and equipped.

 

I see this argument too often about Sents. IF you're a better player than your opponent the Sent class is fine...

 

Well, duh.

 

But what if you do a direct comparison between the most skilled v the most skilled. Or the average v the average.

 

Then how does Sent hold up?

Then how does Combat hold up?

 

Not so well IMHO.

 

It really depends on the class you're up against, classes in this game have weaknesses and strengths, that said its really hard to tell definitively how sentinel holds up in one on one situations with other classes because there is no arena, and that is probably how a lot of people would like it to stay because balance conversations and class tweaking pisses them off.

 

Although 1 on 1s do happen in warzones its hard to say how balance plays a role because you don't know the other players gear or skill level, in wow with arenas and armory you could have that information easily and really start to figure out which classes are better than others.

 

That said, sentinels will always have a role in ranked warzone groups, and when you consider winning warzones the ultimate goal in this conversation, which it really should be, then we're a great class, one of the best classes. Transendence and inspriation are GREAT abilities that will always buy sentinels a spot in ranked warzones and raids, the problem is that a lot of us didn't sign up to be a buff class or expect it when we rolled sentinel.

 

My guess about sentinel balance is that we're a little weak right now, particularly against assassins and pyrotechs from my personal experience, but again there isn't enough information to know for sure, thats just my initial assumption based on my experience thus far.

 

Also, balance is harder than you're making it sound, because our class is just more difficult and demanding to play than most, making our abilities stronger so that average sentinel players can compete with average players from other classes will result in sentinels dominating at a high level, because right now our class when played at a high level, even against high level players, isn't a horribley gimp class, maybe a little weak in terms of our ability to do damage/kill players, but still decent, so if its buffed too much we will become overpowered at high levels of play, and again we still have transcendence and inspiration so at least we will always be useful.

Edited January 11, 2012 by McDaniels

[shadowflit]

I'm not sure if I can claim A or B....probably somewhere in the middle, but I love my Sentinel.

 

L50, 42 valor, Focus. I have tried neither Watchman nor Combat. I have occasionally looked over enviously at the better interrupting ability Watchman gets, and have wondered if it might be better single target DPS in Flashpoints, but I can't really imagine living without Force Exhaustion and Zealous Leap in PvP.

[Saetun]

I think an important question that needs to be asked of both is :

 

have you leveled another class to 50?

 

Many people in this forum do not provide objective answers due to having not done so. Or they level another to 20-30 and think they know what it is really like.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Saetun

[LastRedemption]

I'm a level 30 sentinel player. It is my main character. I have also tried a few ranged classes but did not level them beyond 15 so I could focus on my main.

 

 

I have tried both combat and watchman.

 

 

My #1 issue with this class and the reason why I think it is broken?

 

We are supposed to be a pure damage class. We have no tanking ability, crappy medium armor, and 0 healing skills. At the same time, we get out dpsed by practically every healer-dps class.

 

Either we need a damage buff (all melee does in my opinion) or we need a heal ability.

 

I would be highly in favor of adding a passive skill which allows life steal/leech on our attacks. That would help with survivability without redesigning sentinel to another heal-dps class.

 

The way things are now, sentinel is pathetic when compared to other classes. No, I'm not saying sentinel sucks. I'm saying COMPARED to other classes, we do not do enough damage to offset the lack of armor, tanking, and healing capability.

 

Anyone who thinks otherwise should go play any of the ranged classes for a few levels and you will have a better idea of what I mean by "compared to." You will see just how gimped we are.

Edited January 11, 2012 by LastRedemption

[Mavick]

Trying out watchman atm, after being combat only since I began the toon. It's really hard to form a basis of comparison when you mostly pvp, and generally in a premade. I'm not yet seeing anything that makes me want to stick with this over combat. They basically both have the pro's and con's. The main thing for me to see was the damage, and granted, I'm still getting used to the new mantra, but it's not outperforming combat by any stretch as of yet in terms of damage.

[Rankith]

Secondly watchman can offer a huge movement speed buff to their group through transcendence. Any PvP oriented watchman specs need to have the transcendence talent if you don't you're either an egotistical stat-padder or you're doing it wrong. With that talent transcendence is borderline OP and will be huge in ranked warzones.

 

The wording on focused pursuit is a little unclear. Does it increase the entire groups speed by that extra 30% or just yours? I haven't been watchman for a bit so don't remember.

[Mavick]

Just your own. And it's almost a drawback really, as, if you're not used to it it's actually harder to stay on a target with that still up because you move so damn fast.

[McDaniels]

Just your own. And it's almost a drawback really, as, if you're not used to it it's actually harder to stay on a target with that still up because you move so damn fast.

 

It increases your groups speed as well, not just yours. That means the 4 players in your party, not the whole warzone.

[Rankith]

It increases your groups speed as well, not just yours. That means the 4 players in your party, not the whole warzone.

Damn that is OP as all hell.

[McDaniels]

Damn that is OP as all hell.

 

yep lol.