DPS meters cause abuse and take away choice!

[X-rapture]

DPS meters are just about accountability. I am not at the end game of SWTOR yet but in rift and WoW there were bosses that were literally impossible (especially rift as most bosses had an enrage timer) if DPS was too low. This kind of thing is more an argument for multi speccing than it is for no DPS meters. I can remember a few times where we had to give ultimatums and eventually kick out people from our raiding groups. Once they were replaced by competent DPS it was like night and day (in the instance im thinking of, a boss we had been working on for several weeks was cleared in one shot when a bad player was replaced).

 

I want everybody to do whatever they want when they are soloing or doing normals but one awful spec can often mean the difference between weeks of horrible grinding and an instant clear at high levels.

[--Grim--]

I hope they continue their policy of no addons, dps meters, etc.

 

There are plenty of other games out there for spread sheet idiots. Go play them.

[zootzoot]

I hope they continue their policy of no addons, dps meters, etc.

 

There are plenty of other games out there for spread sheet idiots. Go play them.

 

 

If you don't like theory crafting or min/maxing then don't. Why stop others fro enjoying that meta game>

[Braggha]

People who do not want meters in MMO game are either:

 

a) Terribly bad players, they gonna be on bottom of the list.

 

b) Have problem with self-esteem and afraid of being flamed, even if not entirely bad. Still terrible, because noone should really care what random party think of them in game on the internet.

 

Accept it. Players are not equal. Some player are better than the others.

Someone have better reaction. Someone less lazy and cares to learn rotation. Someone cares to do math and perform better. That kind of players will down that bosses.

 

Care. Calculate. Think - and you will top meters, and noone will spill dirt on you. Everyone getting what they deserving, and if not deserving - you should know better that you dud everything to perform best.

 

MMO combat is math. Its not waving sabers or daggers, not shooting blasters. it is battle of numbers and formulas. You may struggle however you want, speaking of "immersion", "epic feeling of combat", whatever. You are helpless to change that combat is math.

 

We need numbers to calculate what is optimal.

[Boldfury]

Meters do none of his. They do not cause harassment. Jerks cause harassment, and they'll be jerks regardless of whether they have meters or not.

 

Meters don't cause people to spec a certain way, either. Min-maxing may do that, and meters are great for min-maxers, but they certainly don't "force" anyone to play a certain way, and it's ridiculous to claim they do.

 

Honestly, I don't get the kind of insecurity that causes people to post stuff like this. If you don't want to focus on your performance, don't. But how can you sit there and insist everyone play the game the same way you do? For a lot of people, maximizing performance is something they enjoy, and running around with other people who also maximize their performance is fun for them. If you don't want to play with people who do that, then don't. That's why there are things like guilds to help you group up with people who want to play the way you do.

 

Let people play the way they want to. If you don't like their playstyle, don't play with them. It's really that simple. It's the height of selfishness to insist that Bioware remove options for other players and force them to play the way you want to.

 

That sounds alot like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" stance against gun laws. The fact is that DPS meters are tools that makes it easier for people to harass others.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Boldfury

[keldare]

i agree with Op im against dps meters they rly take alot of fun out of the game

[Bakhtin]

The fact is that the interweb makes it easier for people to harass others.

 

fixed

[Galbatorrix]

Look, I'm seriously not worried about other players flaming "me" due to bad DPS. I AM, as I've said several times in this thread, the type of player that will sit in front of a training dummy trying to work on rotation, goes to sites to look into the proper stat priorities, etc. I'm always very competitive regardless of the class I'm playing. And besides that, My main is a Pally tank, so my DPS doesn't concern me most of the time.

 

 

I just don't want every run in THIS game to be like the one's in the OTHER game because after while, I start initiating vote kicks on the harassers just to get them to shut up. That elitist crap gets annoying after a while. If a DPS is afking or doing 5K in a LFR group, sure, boot them. But, most of the time, it's the people undergeared getting the brunt of the complaints. You can see that they're using the right moves, you can see that they're gemmed right, etc. But, they're under-performing due to being under-geared. Elitists DON'T care about stuff like that. They'd rather boot this person so maybe the next person will do more and save them 5 minutes on that VP run.

 

 

I see way more griefing due to low DPS than I people being helpful and constructive.

[Kurnea]

That sounds alot like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" stance against gun laws. The fact is that DPS meters are tools that makes it easier for people to harass others.

 

Chat is a tool that makes it easier for people to harass others. Does that mean chat should be removed from the game?

[LookBehindThee]

As I said in the other thread. Since most times I am the healer in many MMO's what I see coming from DPS trying to get top on recount so they can post how awesome they are is not anything good.

 

1. no CC from the poster of the awesome recount numbers

2. damage done does not match there spike awesome DPS recount numbers

3. they stand in stuff that sucks up my healing so there awesome DPS recount numbers don't drop due to break in rotation.

4. Do not take the time to pull something off me the healer who for the most part got aggro from healing that awesome DPS and there high numbers cause they have no threat generation tools.

5. To keep that awesome DPS rotation for that awesome god one calls recount they are not gonna interrupt either.

 

Watched it all the time. In many MMO's who allowed it.

 

recount is fine make it private.

 

When I play DPS I know my numbers. I CC, rock overall damage on bosses for sure, move out of icky things sucking my life away, protect my healer and other castors, interrupt. Sometimes I am at the top of DPS too and sometimes not but the job gets done well so I don't care. I do care about allowing a tool that for by it's base use is to "show" someones else your awesomeness.

[Zydrate]

i agree with Op im against dps meters they rly take alot of fun out of the game

 

Really? Cause a lot of people think raiding with bads who don't pull their own weight also takes the fun out of the game. The difference is, you can choose to raid with other bads, but without a dps meter, good players can't choose to raid with other good players.

[guided_by_voices]

People who do not want meters in MMO game are either:

 

a) Terribly bad players, they gonna be on bottom of the list.

 

b) Have problem with self-esteem and afraid of being flamed, even if not entirely bad. Still terrible, because noone should really care what random party think of them in game on the internet.

 

Accept it. Players are not equal. Some player are better than the others.

Someone have better reaction. Someone less lazy and cares to learn rotation. Someone cares to do math and perform better. That kind of players will down that bosses.

 

Care. Calculate. Think - and you will top meters, and noone will spill dirt on you. Everyone getting what they deserving, and if not deserving - you should know better that you dud everything to perform best.

 

MMO combat is math. Its not waving sabers or daggers, not shooting blasters. it is battle of numbers and formulas. You may struggle however you want, speaking of "immersion", "epic feeling of combat", whatever. You are helpless to change that combat is math.

 

We need numbers to calculate what is optimal.

 

OR

 

players who need meters are :

 

a) too stupid and lazy to figure things out for themselves

b) have huge ego problems and have to see themselves on top so their epeen gets stroked

 

you want to challenge yourself with math? go take some advanced calculus classes. are you that afraid to figure the game out yourself?

[Lightmgl]

Threads keep arising. Whats funny is the people asking for no DPS meters don't realize that the game is already loaded with level 50 content that requires players to output very high DPS or it is unkillable via hard enrage....

 

I feel like a broken record. The content requiring DPS is already there, people will be total jerks to bad DPS whether theres meters showing it or not because it is obvious when you fail to beat an enrage timer that someone's DPS is too low.

 

People have this misconception that they are making a game where this stuff doesn't matter. They clearly have not seen the content within the game that already makes it matter.

 

PS: This isn't a post commenting on whether DPS meters are necessary or not, thats subjective. This is just a post to hopefully bring some awareness that min-maxing and good play are already required at max level play, probably to a higher degree then some other games, particularly in HM Flashpoints.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Lightmgl

[Galbatorrix]

Really? Cause a lot of people think raiding with bads who don't pull their own weight also takes the fun out of the game. The difference is, you can choose to raid with other bads, but without a dps meter, good players can't choose to raid with other good players.

 

 

How are you raiding with bads? That is a straw man's excuse if I've ever seen one. If you're a serious raider, you won't be pugging anyway and should be very easy to weed out said "bads" from your guild runs pretty quickly.

[imtrick]

That sounds alot like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" stance against gun laws. The fact is that DPS meters are tools that makes it easier for people to harass others.

 

No they don't. If someone wants to harass others, he will. Meters don't make people jerks; they just don't.

 

There's a huge difference between this and the gun argument. Meters are not a danger to anyone. They're a tool, not a weapon, much like a screwdriver. Sure, someone *could* stab someone with a screwdriver, but that would indicate a serious flaw with the person wielding the screwdriver, not the screwdriver itself.

 

The same goes for meters. Not having them won't make everyone nice, and anyone who thinks that's the case is just deluding himself.

Edited January 11, 2012 by imtrick

[Beastfury]

So tired of several anti meter arguments:

 

1) It gives people tunnel vision and they stop cc/interrupts/moving out of fire...

You know what mod is direct extension of combat log and recount?

FAILBOT. That is the only thing we had spammed in raids. It showed this exactly who fail at fight mechanics.

 

So no Recount does EXACTLY OPPOSITE of making people fail at combat mechanics.

 

2) It makes forces me/others into XXX. Lack of dps meters forces me into XXX, how is that fair? Oh wait because it is not you it doesn't matter does it?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Beastfury

[LookBehindThee]

Threads keep arising. Whats funny is the people asking for no DPS meters don't realize that the game is already loaded with level 50 content that requires players to output very high DPS or it is unkillable via hard enrage....

 

I feel like a broken record. The content requiring DPS is already there, people will be total jerks to bad DPS whether theres meters showing it or not because it is obvious when you fail to beat an enrage timer that someone's DPS is too low.

 

People have this misconception that they are making a game where this stuff matters. They clearly have not seen the content within the game that already makes it matter.

 

PS: This isn't a post commenting on whether DPS meters are necessary or not, thats subjective. This is just a post to hopefully bring some awareness that min-maxing and good play are already required at max level play, probably to a higher degree then some other games, particularly in HM Flashpoints.

 

yep yep

[Buur]

So tired of several anti meter arguments:

 

1) It gives people tunnel vision and they stop cc/interrupts/moving out of fire...

You know what mod is direct extension of combat log and recount?

FAILBOT. That is the only thing we had spammed in raids. It showed this exactly who fail at fight mechanics.

 

So no Recount does EXACTLY OPPOSITE of making people fail at combat mechanics

 

YA FOR SURE MAN!

 

And by that I mean not at all.

[LaSexorcist]

When you group with 5, 10 or 25 people, you give up the choice of playing how you want and you need to spec/gear/play to what the group needs.

 

Ludicrous. A PUG should define what role you need to fill. DPS, Healer, or Tank. They should not be able to define HOW you go about filling that roll. If they say they need a healer and you end up just DPSing, then they should kick you out. If you perform the role you were asked to perform, that should be that. The game is meant to be fun, not a job. If you put more guidelines indicating you must follow this spec and must produce at least this much DPS or heal this much, then it becomes a job.

 

A guild group is a little different depending on the guild. It is more organized, and if a guild wants to put those requirements in, then they can. There should still be no meter however. If you sucked, the guild should help you get better. If you reject their advice and don't get better, then they can kick you since the guidelines were clear when you joined. If you reject their advice but get better then who the f cares?

 

At best, people should offer advice on how to perform a roll the best way possible from a mechanics stand point. But if you don't want to take their advice because it influences your fun, then they should not really have a say in the matter. The only say they should have is whether they want to group with you again in the future.

[Turando]

The OP is correct, but from a very selfish point of view. True, meters ask people to sufficiently perform in their designated role. This sometimes leads to less choice and perhaps less fun.

 

And if bosses are going down without performance metrics, than yeah, the OP has a legit point.

 

Here is the rub. What happens when bosses don't go down? Are wipefests fun? See, now your selfish view of fun isn't so fun for your group anymore, is it? You see, MMOs are more than just a game, they are a social experience. Group endeavors require many people to take REAL time out of their REAL lives to accomplish a goal. When the goal it is accomplished, it is FUN, but when a select few decide to embellish their personal enjoyment instead of contributing to the group, they cause the group to fail at their goal, and everybody's entertainment is affected. It also means the time your group has taken out of their REAL life is now wasted.

 

This is also not about producing bleeding edge dps, just competitive dps. You can take creative liberties with your spec and rotations and still product competitive dps. A damage meter just make sure your creative liberty doesn't affect the goals of your group.

[Lingalol]

If any game wants to be taken seriously in the competitive mmo world. It has to have a damage meter.

[Maltuvion]

"Take away choice"? Overdramatize much? You can specc however mind-numbingly bad you want. Some of us just want to play with competent people that put an honor in pulling their weight rather than wasting our time because they put their own egos and wonky homebrewed speccs before the needs of the group.

 

Honestly, it never ceases to amaze me how anti-social the anti-parser squad is.

[Ashorian]

1) meters don't cause the harassment. i guarantee that if a group is wiping to an enrage, someone who is a dick will find a way to insult you if they think you're to blame. if meters were in, and you had some funky hybrid spec but were beating the other dps, nobody could say anything but someone will make a snap judgement on you whether there is a meter or not. meters are a tool to be used to evaluate personal progress and are a positive resource. just because cruel people use them otherwise doesn't make the meter the problem.

 

2) arcane mage vs frost mage. arcane uses 2-3 buttons plus cooldowns, frost uses 3 plus cooldown. congratulations (i've played both pushing content) find a better example

 

 

also, as i've said many times before in other threads such as this one: do not group with people who harass you. if someone harasses you, you have the option to not group with them and/or find people who are of a like mind with yourself. they are out there and you will have fun with them.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Ashorian

[Grim_X]

Player X was mean to me and called me bad!

/ignore and don't group with them ever again.

 

Player Y told me my DPS was bad!

Investigate and Fix it if need be or /ignore and don't group with them ever again.

 

I can't get into a Raid/Operation because the raid leader said I don't have good enough gear.

Investigate and Fix it if need be or /ignore and don't group with them ever again.

 

Player X, Y, and Z were mocking me because of my gear choices in a random PUG!

Investigate and Fix it if need be or /ignore and don't group with them ever again.

 

I heard a story from a friend of a friend's cousin's roommate that Player B ran around the playground throwing sand at girls! Obviously we must ban sand from all playgrounds as it only serves to enable sand throwing at others and if not given said sand then Player B would be a model citizen and not a bully!

... Do you even live on the same planet the rest of us do?

[Maltuvion]

Ludicrous. A PUG should define what role you need to fill. DPS, Healer, or Tank. They should not be able to define HOW you go about filling that roll. If they say they need a healer and you end up just DPSing, then they should kick you out. If you perform the role you were asked to perform, that should be that. The game is meant to be fun, not a job. If you put more guidelines indicating you must follow this spec and must produce at least this much DPS or heal this much, then it becomes a job.

 

A guild group is a little different depending on the guild. It is more organized, and if a guild wants to put those requirements in, then they can. There should still be no meter however. If you sucked, the guild should help you get better. If you reject their advice and don't get better, then they can kick you since the guidelines were clear when you joined. If you reject their advice but get better then who the f cares?

 

At best, people should offer advice on how to perform a roll the best way possible from a mechanics stand point. But if you don't want to take their advice because it influences your fun, then they should not really have a say in the matter. The only say they should have is whether they want to group with you again in the future.

 

So what you're saying is that any Sage who is on healing duty could actually meet up in a dps specc because they couldn't be arsed to specc? Or they could come in a hybrid 10/11/10 specc because that's what makes their game enjoyable? Even though they cause massive amounts of frustration to 15 other people and cause healing to fail during the hardmode encounters (which, and here's the kicker, is not mechanically hard fights; they're HPS/DPS checks).

 

Right. Attitudes like this is why I'm all for a way to parse damage. Doesn't have to be a meter, but we need a parser desperately. I don't want to waste hour upon hour because a couple of people want to do group-content yet doesn't want to put the group's needs before their own.