Private combat logs?

[Devorin_Sargothi]

No idea, as I left the group instantly. I could careless what the problem was after that, when my wife was berated and treated in that manner I had no intention of interacting with those players again.

 

So because of the damage meter, you discovered they were jerks. See how useful they are?

 

You might also have learn that someone was breaking crowd control, or the tank wasn't mitigating enough damage, or there was some poison or other effect that needed interrupted or dispelled.

 

Very hard to tell without a parser, and very hard to tell what other people are doing/ having done to them without their combat logs.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi

[jHats]

I actually hope they keep it for personal use only and about your character only.

 

Would be a nice change of pace from raging mouth breathers.

[Vydor_HC]

So because of the damage meter, you discovered they were jerks. See how useful they are?

 

You might also have learn that someone was breaking crowd control, or the tank wasn't mitigating enough damage, of there was some poison or other effect that needed interrupted or dispelled.

 

Very hard to tell without a parser, and very hard to tell what other people are doing/ having done to them without their combat logs.

 

No, because of the meter, my wife was brought to tears.

 

I know there are positives that could be gained and if the positives outweighed the negatives I'd be all for the tool. But I've seen enough to know it's the negative impact on the game that takes precedence....as a result, I do not support stuff being added to the game.

 

In the end, content will still be completed without such a tool. True elite gamers have always figured out the big bosses without tools which trivialize the encounters.

[Maigrey]

No idea, as I left the group instantly. I could careless what the problem was after that, when my wife was berated and treated in that manner I had no intention of interacting with those players again.

 

And so the meters did you a favor correct? It let you find out right away that you didn;t like them, it might have taken much longer without those meters.

[MasterKayote]

So after a wipe it's bad if I want to see a log of what happened? Not just what I did but when the Tanks popped CD's and how much damage the DPS'ers were doing. I've been in groups where the Boss seems to be dying very, very slowly and it's taxing my resources as a healer. I'd like to see which DPS is not performing and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

I also like logs because when a Tank dies and he calls me out for not healing I'd like to point out that he was standing in the fire or that he never used CD's during a high damage phase. If you're worried about someone mocking you either you're not very good or you're a delicate flower and maybe shouldn't be playing MMO's.

 

If someone's a jacktard in a PuG you drop group and put the player on ignore. Simple.

 

Not needed. And my DPS has always been fine and up to par with other players. Either way, I actually think this dependency on DPS meters actually makes you a worse player but I digress. If not wanting rude uninviting behavior to get WORSE makes me a "delicate flower" then so be it. You dont need to know or control every single little detail ... in laments terms thats called being a control freak and is an actual psychological problem.

 

Who knows, maybe they'll throw in CD's and interrupts to the mix, Id be fine with that too ... would that make you happy? I highly doubt it. IMO, you all wont be happy until you can police every detail of your group ... you want to judge others based on your very subjective expectations.

 

Im not saying there arent benefits to good players with a shred of decency ... but thats not the case on the internet. And since (like has been said a million times in thousands of threads on the issue) its not needed, its PROVEN to not be needed, I prefer it gone and not drop the community down another level.

 

P.S: The fire isnt invisible, you can tell when someone stays on the fire ... set up interrupt rotations and follow them. Otherwise its a game, sometimes you lose. Instead of whining and pointing fingers, work with what you got ... you'll come out a better, more versatile, team effective, player in the end.

[Truga]

The information provided by those meters can and does get taken out of context or misrepresented.

 

The information is used to harm others.

 

To me those two are enough not to include them. Others have posted many other reasons. I'd like to ask you if you consider yourself hardcore? because I fail to see how anyone can who is asking for help playing the game so early on.

 

Include every meter you want in test setting. the game becomes alot more interesting if you have to figure things out the hard way then having some mod do the work for you.

 

I literally had to take a whole 10 minutes to figure out my DPS rotation on my sorceress. It might not be the top 1%, but it is in the top 5%. All the meter would allow me to do in that respect is add another 3-5% dps by figuring out if any of the other skills are bad, like, say, crushing darkness. I dunno how it is talented, but with lightning spec it's just plain worse than simply spamming lightning strike, for example.

 

And while I do like figuring out boss mechanics for myself, I can always turn off the boss mods if they're already implemented in them, or, which is more likely the case, said mechanics aren't even in boss mods yet, because the raid is new.

[Carnerous]

I actually hope they keep it for personal use only and about your character only.

 

Would be a nice change of pace from raging mouth breathers.

 

if we cant match the dps requirement of a boss i just kick a dps randomly and hope it was the slacker.

 

sounds better for you?

[AlpsStranger]

No, because of the meter, my wife was brought to tears.

 

I know there are positives that could be gained and if the positives outweighed the negatives I'd be all for the tool. But I've seen enough to know it's the negative impact on the game that takes precedence....as a result, I do not support stuff being added to the game.

 

In the end, content will still be completed without such a tool. True elite gamers have always figured out the big bosses without tools which trivialize the encounters.

 

Never mind guys, he pulled an emotional trump card so we all lose the argument forever.

 

Now we can't argue against him without being cruel to women. Too bad, I wish I could've found a way to play the image of a woman in tears to support my argument. It really cuts down on having to prove anything.

[scubamonk]

No idea, as I left the group instantly. I could careless what the problem was after that, when my wife was berated and treated in that manner I had no intention of interacting with those players again.

 

See, I perceive detailed logs to resolve this kind of situation. Some people are jerks about it, but maybe your wife actually was the issue? Maybe she wasn't and people were standing in fire. With detailed logs, as someone who heals frequently, I find it immensely helpful to go to the tape. They blame me and I can objectively prove thanks to logs "no you died from standing in fire". Without logs tunnel visioning dps/tanks will claim they weren't because they didn't realize they were taking tons of avoidable damage. When you can go to the meter you can prove definitively one way or the other.

 

It sounds like your problem came from not having all the data. Only being able to see dps people were left to guess about the rest. If you think without meters people won't make their best guess at whats wiping the group, you are mistaken. At least when you boot people because of what your meter tells you, you're making an objective, fact based decision.

[Vydor_HC]

And so the meters did you a favor correct? It let you find out right away that you didn;t like them, it might have taken much longer without those meters.

 

Dying to complete a task isn't an issue for me, I don't really care how often I fail before I win, as long as I keep trying and my teammates do the same. The meter did nothing for the group except lead to hurt feelings and destruction of what could have been a new set of friends.

[Kesitah]

The information provided by those meters can and does get taken out of context or misrepresented.

 

The information is used to harm others.

 

It can also be used to help others. As a raidleader I had this player who was just not performing good. Really awful DPS (and yes, I would have noticed even without a damagemeter). Without a combat log/full log parser I would not have had any other chances than to bench him (some officers were already discussing this option). I instead looked at his logs in detail, found out what he did wrong - and explained it to him. While I not say that he would be a 1st class dps now, he is - good enough. And I am happy I can keep him in the team now, as I come pretty good along with him.

 

Without damagemeter I would have had to bench him (the mistakes he did were too complicated - okay, had also to do that I do not play his class surely - that I could name them without looking at the data in detail). With damagemeter I could analyze his mistakes and he could keep raiding with the group.

[Beastfury]

If they make an rtarded attempt to make a private combat log, i am gone. They clearly have no hope imho in that case.

[Carnerous]

Not needed. And my DPS has always been fine and up to par with other players. Either way, I actually think this dependency on DPS meters actually makes you a worse player but I digress. If not wanting rude uninviting behavior to get WORSE makes me a "delicate flower" then so be it. You dont need to know or control every single little detail ... in laments terms thats called being a control freak and is an actual psychological problem.

 

Who knows, maybe they'll throw in CD's and interrupts to the mix, Id be fine with that too ... would that make you happy? I highly doubt it. IMO, you all wont be happy until you can police every detail of your group ... you want to judge others based on your very subjective expectations.

 

Im not saying there arent benefits to good players with a shred of decency ... but thats not the case on the internet. And since (like has been said a million times in thousands of threads on the issue) its not needed, its PROVEN to not be needed, I prefer it gone and not drop the community down another level.

 

P.S: The fire isnt invisible, you can tell when someone stays on the fire ... set up interrupt rotations and follow them. Otherwise its a game, sometimes you lose. Instead of whining and pointing fingers, work with what you got ... you'll come out a better, more versatile, team effective, player in the end.

 

please tell me how you know your dps was fine and you were not carried by 3 other persons?

[TItanten]

if we cant match the dps requirement of a boss i just kick a dps randomly and hope it was the slacker.

 

sounds better for you?

 

Quit pugging hard content.

 

Jesus, it's like you guys don't actually have guilds of people you've known more than 3 minutes in game.

 

If you're doing content that actually needs the extra 3-5% damage a combat logger would enable you should know your raid members well enough to realize they're not complete morons.

 

And wiping once on a flashpoint boss is not the end of the world. Suggest to the group a way to improve and beat him the 2nd attempt.

 

You guys spend all day on the forums, your time is not that valuable. You can spend 5 minutes a day interacting with other players. It won't kill you.

[AlpsStranger]

If they make an rtarded attempt to make a private combat log, i am gone. They clearly have no hope imho in that case.

 

Pretty much. This tells me that their long term plan really is something like "voice acting and lots and lots of alts."

[Maigrey]

Dying to complete a task isn't an issue for me, I don't really care how often I fail before I win, as long as I keep trying and my teammates do the same. The meter did nothing for the group except lead to hurt feelings and destruction of what could have been a new set of friends.

 

Why would you want to be friends with jerks?

 

Why would you want to help jerks succeed?

 

Go find some good people to play with and have fun.

[Kesitah]

I actually hope they keep it for personal use only and about your character only.

 

I would suggest something else - make a UI option if your data will be "exported" or not. Then the raid leader can decide if he wants only people with public meters or not, but still people can decide for themselves, if they want to be in a meter-supporting raid or not. And people who answer with "yes" can still get the full information.

[TItanten]

please tell me how you know your dps was fine and you were not carried by 3 other persons?

 

Boss died, loot was won, who gives a ****.

[Jett-Rinn]

No, you mean you actually have no proof or valid point. Just scaremongering that everyone thats not doing 100% the best damage posible will be ousted from society.

 

.

 

No you just proved my point...."we're all scaremongers who tell lies."

 

No sense in continuing with someone who has already made up their mind is all.

[Verain]

Obviously, the raid game can't be even remotely serious without combat logs.

 

I would lol pretty hard if it was private-only, but even that would enable top guilds to ensure that their members were doing their stuff.

 

Still a giant step backwards from WoW.

[Vydor_HC]

See, I perceive detailed logs to resolve this kind of situation. Some people are jerks about it, but maybe your wife actually was the issue? Maybe she wasn't and people were standing in fire. With detailed logs, as someone who heals frequently, I find it immensely helpful to go to the tape. They blame me and I can objectively prove thanks to logs "no you died from standing in fire". Without logs tunnel visioning dps/tanks will claim they weren't because they didn't realize they were taking tons of avoidable damage. When you can go to the meter you can prove definitively one way or the other.

 

It sounds like your problem came from not having all the data. Only being able to see dps people were left to guess about the rest. If you think without meters people won't make their best guess at whats wiping the group, you are mistaken. At least when you boot people because of what your meter tells you, you're making an objective, fact based decision.

 

-nods-

 

Like I've said before, I know there are positives to the tool. I see the in game implementation though as just the opposite. And I always see people swearing on these boards that the tool aren't used destructively, but I know they are.

 

As a result I'd rather see something that is not required, but that is a nice to have, however it doesn't improve the game in the end, not be added by the developer.

[aimbotcfg]

That's the point, I was trying to make. It doesn't happen when people are performing. When the person is deemed to be not performing well, against some arbitrary standard. Then it's used as a weapon to bludgeon them. Not as a tool to help improve performance, which could be the case, but it's generally not.

 

For example, my wife and I were doing a dungeon in Warhammer with some people we didn't really know, other than we'd seen them in battle around. We kept failing on a difficult boss, and the leader told my wife, everyone was doing the correct amount of damage, so she must not be healing enough, and promptly booted her.

 

It's stuff like this, that is the norm rather than the exception, that make a tool that could be a positive feature, a negative one.

 

Theres 2 options here in all honesty.

 

Option 1 - The group leader was not using the tool correctly and thus didn't check the HPS to see your wifes numbers, damage taken to see if anyone was taking unnecesary damage, interupts to see if anyone was failing at them etc. - In this case, your wife was booted unfairly and, more than likely would have been blamed if the meter was not involved.

 

This is the fault of the group leader being bad, not the meter. The group will have got another healer and carried on failing.

 

Option 2 - The group leader was using the tool right, cheked everything they should have and you wife was in fact at fault. Either undergeared, having an off-day, not adjusting to a mechanic, or just not cut out for that boss. It happens, and its something people need to deal with, sometimes they are not good enough to do something others are.

 

This is the fault of your wife failing at something, not the meter. The group will have likely got a healer that could cope and killed the boss.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now remove the meter from these situations.

 

Option 1 - You carry on failing because the people who were failing and werent picked up on it carry on doing so. (Or alternatively, the bad group lead blames the healer and kicks your wife anyway)

 

Option 2 - You carry on failing because your wife wasn't picked up on failing.

 

 

How does removing the combat meter help anyone?

[Truga]

Harder, but in a *very* lame way. It's harder in the same sense that FPSs are harder with gamepads. If raids are balanced around heavy tool use they're more likely to be white-knuckle tight-tolerance affairs. If they're based around a really basic stock UI they'll be a lot more tolerant.

 

I personally hope that in the end, raid mechanics will include some random (hard) puzzles, possibly happening while the boss is hitting your group, all while putting a heavy strain on your resources. That way, recount and all this bull makes little difference, if you can't solve your puzzle in time, you'll run out of juice and die.

 

Complicated low toleration dungeon mechanics beat 0-toleration boss fights in difficulty any day, because multitasking an extra problem is just that much harder.

[TItanten]

Obviously, the raid game can't be even remotely serious without combat logs.

 

Lies. There were far more serious raiding games than WOW before addons were even thought about (or bannable offenses).

[Jett-Rinn]

Pretty much. This tells me that their long term plan really is something like "voice acting and lots and lots of alts."

 

Yeah,,,umm unless you know they keep regularly putting out Quest content, flaspoints and operations that's more than just what "The Hyper-Competitive" gamer enjoys.

 

I mean yeah doing that for the bulk of you audience instead of truning out raid after raid (like every other MMO) would be a bad Idea...

Edited January 11, 2012 by Jett-Rinn