Private combat logs?

[DarthKhaos]

You think people are asking for combat logs because they want to use it for 4 mans?

Newsflash, people are asking for combat logs because they want it for raiding.

Then tell them to stop bring it up in the discussion. and yes people were talking bout it before me. Beside why are you grabbing strangers or joining a pug raid?

 

If you need one or 2 new people someone you, the rest of your raid or your guild would know someone reliable to take. People they have partied with and know don't suck.

 

You have these honorable reasons for wanting them but the sad fact there are people out there who use it to do nothing else but to try and be anal about things. The log can be used so you can improve yourself personally. So when you go to your raid you don't suck.

 

We differ on what and why things are needed. I believe (because I've already seen similar signs starting show itself) that it's going to be misused to cause as much unnecessary and unwanted annoyance to the community which I care about.

[Hairless]

Then tell them to stop bring it up in the discussion. and yes people were talking bout it before me. Beside why are you grabbing strangers or joining a pug raid?

What's wrong with people joining pug raids? What's wrong with trying out a new recruit?

Seriously, why do all these anti-meter guys make me feel like I am arguing with a 6 year old?

We differ on what and why things are needed. I believe (because I've already seen similar signs starting show itself) that it's going to be misused to cause as much unnecessary and unwanted annoyance to the community which I care about.

 

I really don't remember Recount being misused that much in WoW and I played it for a long time. Have I seen some idiots use it for idiotic reasons? Yea but does it affect me in anyway what some idiot is doing? No.

If you remember so well people misusing it and have such a strong negativity towards it, the problem is you.

[Kabjat]

The reason for my want/need for combat logs is very simple. I raid. And I raid competitively. Right now I am in an 8 man that is starting Nightmare pretty soon and I would perfer if we went into 16 mans. The reason why my 8 man is so far ahead after its first raid week is because I trust everyone in there due to playing with them previously, or they are trusted friends of others.

 

Swapping to 16 man though, I do not know the 8 other players and they will have to be recruited from the general public. There is always "THAT" guy that is dead weight and worthless in a raiding environment. Even though he may be the nicest guy in the world he can't do his job so he wastes the time of 15 other people for hours on end. This is where combat logs are nessessary to see why he is dying, why his damage is so low, why other people are dying if hes a healer, ect ect. Any competitive player needs a combat log to answer these questions.

 

So people who say they don't want combat logs or anything, you are probably "THAT" guy. Which is fine. I will be nice to you and respectful to you but no, I really don't want to play with you. If its possible for me to help you, then I will, but I can't with out logs of any type.

 

I really don't see what the problem is. This makes perfect sense. The ones who are vehemently opposed to this feature probably wouldn't accept constructive help anyway. As for me, my raiding days were over when I quit wow, but I would certainly never campaign to keep these tools out of the hands of those who DO raid.

 

Time to move on people.

[DarthKhaos]

What's wrong with people joining pug raids? What's wrong with trying out a new recruit?

Seriously, why do all these anti-meter guys make me feel like I am arguing with a 6 year old?

Sad. When logic fails toss insults. So you just close your eyes and point at some random person and say "HEY this looks like a good recruit."

[RealAeiouy]

lol yes it is because we want to kill the boss.

 

So, tell me, how do you find the person doing less than 166.6 dps?

 

If are saying all 10 dps need to do the same damage you are a massive failure as a raid leader so just go tell the 7 dps to reroll as the fotm dps class. If you are unable to even determine that without a parser than you ragequit out of embarrassment.

 

That is the thing you don't just treat everyone equal. The guy at the bottom might be at 95% efficiency and the guy in second might be at 80% efficiency. You are going to get on the case of the last guy which is horrible leadership and gameplay.

 

Everyone should be trying to do more dps if you are close. If you are not close you got other issues to address first. No matter it does not require a meter to beat an enrage timer that is a hacky and lazy way to beat that kind of encounter.

 

All it does is promote all dps being one or two of the easiest classes. That is not good gameplay.

[konnix]

Every week, BioWare get's less vocal, and makes increasingly awful decisions

 

 

Seriously.. You STILL here with your negativity?!? Ohh myyy Gooood. Why do you keep

posting all the nonsense, over a week after you left? Go back to wow or crawl back under

a rock or something. If you dont like the game/developer w/e, stay away from it?

 

But hey, I honestly think your still playing and you just beeing "cool" trashtalking.

Go get some friends, have some fun...

[Hairless]

If are saying all 10 dps need to do the same damage you are a massive failure as a raid leader so just go tell the 7 dps to reroll as the fotm dps class. If you are unable to even determine that without a parser than you ragequit out of embarrassment.

 

That is the thing you don't just treat everyone equal. The guy at the bottom might be at 95% efficiency and the guy in second might be at 80% efficiency. You are going to get on the case of the last guy which is horrible leadership and gameplay.

 

Everyone should be trying to do more dps if you are close. If you are not close you got other issues to address first. No matter it does not require a meter to beat an enrage timer that is a hacky and lazy way to beat that kind of encounter.

 

All it does is promote all dps being one or two of the easiest classes. That is not good gameplay.

 

If you think progressing on a boss is that simple, your raiding experience is limited to getting carried through outdated content by pugs that still kicked you for under-performing.

[RealAeiouy]

There's nothing destructive about addons, parsers, minmaxing or powergaming. If you don't want to use them, you don't have to. You can go 2 man content with your spouse and anyone else who wants to come along, and I promise we won't come pee on your spaceship.

 

Good. Then you don't mind all the top level gear dropping in 2 man instances as well. You can choose to raid and they can choose to do 2 mans and get them same rewards. Certainly nothing destructive about people getting top gear from crafting, pvp, soloing or duoing. Everyone should be able to choose their own difficulty level for the game to succeed.

[Beslley]

I look forward to the day when I can get my hands on some combat logs to do some theorycrafting.

 

All of you people screaming about how having a combat log will ruin the game need to go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure because maybe a serious MMO isn't for you.

 

When I play MMOs, I play to compete. How am I supposed to be competitive if I don't have any way to analyze my numbers?

 

Just my two cents.

 

If you think progressing on a boss is that simple, your raiding experience is limited to getting carried through outdated content by pugs that still kicked you for under-performing.

 

Also this. The only ones who fear combat logs are the ignorant and the bad. The ignorant ones think that the combat log will ruin the game. The bads are afraid of us finding out

Edited January 12, 2012 by Beslley

[RealAeiouy]

The reason for my want/need for combat logs is very simple. I raid. And I raid competitively. Right now I am in an 8 man that is starting Nightmare pretty soon and I would perfer if we went into 16 mans. The reason why my 8 man is so far ahead after its first raid week is because I trust everyone in there due to playing with them previously, or they are trusted friends of others.

 

Swapping to 16 man though, I do not know the 8 other players and they will have to be recruited from the general public. There is always "THAT" guy that is dead weight and worthless in a raiding environment. Even though he may be the nicest guy in the world he can't do his job so he wastes the time of 15 other people for hours on end. This is where combat logs are nessessary to see why he is dying, why his damage is so low, why other people are dying if hes a healer, ect ect. Any competitive player needs a combat log to answer these questions.

 

So people who say they don't want combat logs or anything, you are probably "THAT" guy. Which is fine. I will be nice to you and respectful to you but no, I really don't want to play with you. If its possible for me to help you, then I will, but I can't with out logs of any type.

 

 

 

You dont sound very good at managing the game if that guy is going to bring you down and if the 8 of you can't figure out who is doing what. Treat the other people as humans and not npcs you have selected to fill out your raid and you will have better luck.

[RealAeiouy]

I need the combat log to identify bad players so I can avoid them. I don't want to waste my time playing with bads.

 

Bads will be the ones grousing about not knowing how to play without a combat parser.

[RealAeiouy]

All we have is interpretations. I don't know you from a hole in a sock. lol.

 

Its definitely "NEED" and "WANT". People have raided just fine in this game without any type of combat log whatsoever. Its proven that it is not NEEDED. People WANT them for a multitude of reasons.

 

To maximize their potential

To belittle others

To assure only the top DPSers/Healers are in group

To set false walls in place which dont exist in this particular game

 

The bad outweighs the good. Why must you worry about everyone else. Worry about yourself. If you spend more time worrying about others, there is no time for self reflection or imporving. Use your logs and be the best you can and hope the others do as well.

 

At the end of the day, if you are clearing the content and doing it easily, why in the world do you WANT to know what someone else is doing. So you can say "lolGetCarried" or "ubad?". There is no positive outcome at all to wide open damage meters / logs as it just breeds negativity and open hostility.

 

 

 

Very well stated.

[Hairless]

Bads will be the ones grousing about not knowing how to play without a combat parser.

 

True. Bads need meters to kill bosses. Helping the bads is good for the community. We don't want to segregate bads from the community. So why are you arguing against meters?

[darkdayze]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

Right there at the bottom.

 

 

 

If you want to keep your combat log private, that's fine. I want the option to make mine public. I have nothing to hide. I want people to trust me, and combat logs give them the data to do so.

 

It's fine to feel a little put upon or even threatened by the criticism of others. People can be harsh. You paid your money, and you don't care to deal with criticism, that's fine.

 

But I'm the one paying MY money, and I insist on having hard data on what's going on in my group. I actively seek feedback from my teammates. If you're not interested in this kind of activity, we don't ever have to group, play, or even speak together.

 

I'm fine with that.

 

ewwww....your one of those people. I guess have fun playing alone....or with your "buddies", I hope your "very close"

Edited January 12, 2012 by darkdayze

[AlpsStranger]

So again, if most people are fine with combat logs being private, why not take Devorin's suggestion and allow us to voluntarily make ours public?

 

This "vast majority" of players will surely be glad to play with private logs and in no way be suspicious of people who leave their logs private.

 

We all know why. It's because the people that want private combat logs are actually a vocal forum minority.

Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[DarthKhaos]

This "vast majority" of players will surely be glad to play with private logs and in no way be suspicious of people who leave their logs private.

Did you read the same thread I read?

[Truga]

Groups that don't use meters should then get better loot as they are playing a more challenging game.

 

I like that idea.

 

I like this.

 

On a more serious note, let's be fair here: People completed nightmare modes inside the first two weeks with ease. This means the game isn't very hard.

 

This tells me that with the current difficulty of this game we don't need logs. Some people want them, and some people are even going as far as saying "demand or quit", but I don't even know if I still want them at all. Yes, they would make my job as a pug leader easier, but if the game is this easy, certainly they aren't needed.

 

I have played two or three MMOs competitively, and none of them had any add-ons or combat logs and I can say that I won't miss them too much here either. The competition will stay healthy as long as the game stays fun, meters or no meters. If bioware wants content balanced by people not having these tools, I'm not going to moan about it.

 

Some might call it artificial difficulty, but in the end it's BW's choice how they want their game played. For WoW I hear that it has top raider content balanced against people using these mods, which kinda makes them mandatory for people that want to compete but prefer looking out the window rather than at mods, too. I don't know if that's a good thing.

 

And to all the pro-meter and pro-log people. I like these things, but I'm not going to go spew bull around here about how they don't make my game easier. This is a fact, and no matter how much you deny it, it stays true. The only reason it wouldn't make the current game easier is if they scale the difficulty upwards. And in the end, we achieved nothing. The performance curve gets lifted 5% and the difficulty curve gets lifted 5%.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Truga

[AlpsStranger]

I already know I'm just going to get a bunch of "Don't care" responses, but there is zero chance I'm coming back until I can know my group's DPS/HPS/Interrupts/CCbreaks etc *Objectively.*

 

I don't care to use guessworky methods to determine when someone is slacking in my group. I can already play Rift, WoW, or any number of other games where this isn't necessary.

 

Have fun with your private-log paradise, but I'm out until I get word that this isn't the direction they're going.

 

Hopefully losing people like me works out for them in the end. Maybe some kind of new MMORPG where people roll dozens of alts and giggle every time they wipe on a boss can be born from this. I'm incredibly, staggeringly, unimaginably skeptical that this is the case, but we'll see.

Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[AlpsStranger]

And to all the pro-meter and pro-log people. I like these things, but I'm not going to go spew bull around here about how they don't make my game easier. This is a fact, and no matter how much you deny it, it stays true. The only reason it wouldn't make the current game easier is if they scale the difficulty upwards. And in the end, we achieved nothing. The performance curve gets lifted 5% and the difficulty curve gets lifted 5%.

 

Truga, won't the private logs already cause the highlighted part to happen?

 

I think you keep forgetting that we're talking about Private vs Public. Log parsing is already confirmed. So 90% of that difficulty inflation will already occur. People will already be able to use the absolute best rotations and builds pretty easily.

 

The only difference with private logs is that someone can't be scrutinized by the rest of their group. This will make the content slightly harder in a sense, but it will mostly just protect people from performance quotas.

 

I still maintain that deliberate slackers are going to be the primary beneficiaries of private logs. People that are genuinely awful will probably give themselves away, but people who know how to look like they're doing something when they're really just hitting a few keys and reading a book will be very hard to detect.

Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Truga]

Good point. I guess we'll see what happens pretty soon, I can imagine them playing with combat log/meter as early as 1.2, since there's a huge outcry about them. I also think if nothing else, most people will post their numbers in chat just by typing them in (how do you prevent people from "linking" their meters, they can always just type it in chat). And since there will be no way to check if they really are private I'll have a blast trolling such people with my healer claiming more DPS than they did. I always do auto-attacks between heals on my trooper, it's worth more than auto-attack healing most of the time, and makes me look like I'm not piking.

 

Should be fun times for me, either way this goes in the end

Edited January 12, 2012 by Truga

[Hairless]

If we are getting private combat logs anyway, at least raids will have full combat logs. I just can not imagine a reason why they wouldn't.

[AlpsStranger]

Good point. I guess we'll see what happens pretty soon, I can imagine them playing with combat log/meter as early as 1.2, since there's a huge outcry about them. I also think if nothing else, most people will post their numbers in chat just by typing them in (how do you prevent people from "linking" their meters, they can always just type it in chat). And since there will be no way to check if they really are private I'll have a blast trolling such people with my healer claiming more DPS than they did. I always do auto-attacks between heals on my trooper, it's worth more than auto-attack healing most of the time, and makes me look like I'm not piking.

 

Should be fun times for me, either way this goes in the end

 

But you kinda see my point, right? Private-only combat logs is one of those devil's compromises where it's worse than either pole. No combat logging isn't my thing, but at least it's a global and coherent concept. Full combat logging is obviously workable ( unless people are going to claim that the biggest MMO in the world somehow doesn't "work." )

 

Private logging is a terrible compromise that provides far more drama than it prevents. I would, for instance, just keep breaking CC and blaming it on other people. Too funny not to. Without logging there is simply no expectation of knowing who broke CC unless you saw it, but with private logging the potential for drama is quite high. I could, for instance, paste my private log but not until after editing out the part where I broke the CC.

 

And no matter what these "Captain Perception" superhero types say I guarantee I could break CC without getting caught in a 16 man raid.

 

If we are getting private combat logs anyway, at least raids will have full combat logs. I just can not imagine a reason why they wouldn't.

 

Because they apparently buy into the "e-peener" argument.

Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[AlpsStranger]

I also think if nothing else, most people will post their numbers in chat just by typing them in (how do you prevent people from "linking" their meters, they can always just type it in chat).

 

Because the sort of people who ask for this kind of thing are simply wanting a perfect solution that can't exist. They want to eradicate all so-called "e-peening" but that can't really be done. They dream of an MMORPG where a certain personality type is somehow systematically rendered impossible, but it can't really be done without a rogue brain surgeon in the employ of Bioware jumping through people's windows.

 

With full metering an "e-peener" at least has to put up or shut up. This sort of behavior is only going to get worse without access to objective data. Now it'll be a contest of pure boasting and lying.

Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Devorin_Sargothi]

A few links:

 

 

If you think elitist jerks are going to ruin the game for you, here's a few trying to improve it.

 

http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t110315-cataclysm_protection_warrior/

 

 

If you just think you're not smart enough to be competitive, this might help.

 

http://homeworktips.about.com/od/mathhomework/a/mathanxiety.htm

 

 

If this whole anti-parser attitude sounds familiar, this is why.

 

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

[Iskevosi]

I must admit that I would prefer them to not have put any combat logs in at all. But if they are I want them to be private, not with a toggle option to make them Public, else groups will be forced by some hot heads that they must post their results or "you can't play with me".

 

People are too hung up on the fact they will be carrying people, this I believe will be a very small few. Most people are playing this game to achieve a number of goals. No one logs in and put's their toon in the middle of a mob to have it's head smashed in without fighting back!!!!

 

Nearly everyone's goals from the off is to get to level 50 and beat the mobs on the way. They will do Flashpoints and Heroics to get better gear because they know that they will help them. Once at 50 they will want to do the high level content and again they know that they need to join groups to complete it, to get the greater rewards.

 

All these things are happening already without Combat Logs. To use as the base of any argument that "you will be carrying folks through content" makes you sounds arrogant and that everyone else is not as good as you, and if they say they are you'll want proof.

 

This is a game that we all pay for out of our own money and have a right to play it and achieve things our way without be dictated too that we must conform to a build or an ideal that a few wish to press upon us and that's what will happen if logs are made public in whichever form.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi