Vydor_HC Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I didn't pick up on that. It doesn't make much sense really. Are they really going to bend over backwards for people who believe how poorly they're doing is no business of their group, rather than telling them to find more likeminded players to play with? I mean, I'm not going to jump to any conclusions at this point but I see what you're saying. I'm just disappointed that there's a segment of the population that thinks people aren't already calling them bad and avoiding grouping with them. People may not want to play with you, the best remedy is to get over it and find someone who will play with you. -nods- While I don't agree with having public group log parses in the game, I can understand what you're saying. I still haven't seen a need for them, never have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 It's a simple proposition; the ability to toggle whether or not other people can see your actions in their combat log. There are legitimate and important reasons to see this information, despite what many have said. If we have the tools, we can use them to play better and improve our knowledge base. Fears about privacy and the like don't change this fact. I'm perfectly ok with a toggle for privacy. I'm all for freedom of choice in general. The people who hide it just need to be ok with me kicking them from my groups if I think they're the ones under-performing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 None of what you wrote excuses you for doing poor DPS because you don't understand your class. This isn't kindergarten where everyone gets a blue ribbon for effort. What I posted was "what it means to learn your class" in current MMOs... Everyone goes to the internet and finds the recommended boilerplate spec and rotation and uses it. This is exactly kindergarten!! Go here, use this spec, press these numbers.. Look there apparent raiders here who cannot do the raids without dps meters for God's sake. They need their hands to be held for them. Is that not kindergarten ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swtorsmc Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The untrue bit was that you need dps meters to beat them. You don't need them. You do NOT have to have them, however I would rather have some sort of "numbers / facts" to back up an encounter / class then baseless speculation. The game was designed with enrage timers in every aspect of the endgame, I do not see what the issue is with having a tool that allows you to complete the content. Would you prefer me raid with NO UI also? Because that could be considered a tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Grim-- Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I want combat logs so I can belittle the 99 percent who are clueless morons that need to L2P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) It's a simple proposition; the ability to toggle whether or not other people can see your actions in their combat log. There are legitimate and important reasons to see this information, despite what many have said. If we have the tools, we can use them to play better and improve our knowledge base. Fears about privacy and the like don't change this fact. It's a bad idea for the same reason that Bioware said being able to toggle inspect on/off is a bad idea. People will simply make it the standard and refuse to play with those who will not show their actions in the combat log. If you aren't completely awful there's no reason to turn it off anyways - most groups aren't expecting you to be the best, just moderately competent. Edited January 11, 2012 by Excedrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swtorsmc Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 You don't know what to do when you are not beating an enrage timer without a dps meter? Seriously? You need more dps that is a given, however how do you know what dps you are pulling? Or others are pulling in the raid? It is really easy to say "Do More Dps", the issue is how / who. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 What I posted was "what it means to learn your class" in current MMOs... Everyone goes to the internet and finds the recommended boilerplate spec and rotation and uses it. This is exactly kindergarten!! Go here, use this spec, press these numbers.. Look there apparent raiders here who cannot do the raids without dps meters for God's sake. They need their hands to be held for them. Is that not kindergarten ? Like I said, I don't care what your excuse for not putting out good numbers is. DPS is DPS. If you're not up to par, it doesn't really matter why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TItanten Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 You need more dps that is a given, however how do you know what dps you are pulling? Or others are pulling in the raid? It is really easy to say "Do More Dps", the issue is how / who. The how is easy... with a private log you can *Gasp* go practice! The who... well hopefully you're not pugging hard content and know your guildies. The slackers should be easy to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 This is what happens when you don't have full combat logs. Raid leader: Hey guys, this boss has 1 million HP and enrage timer of 10 minutes so we need minimum 1666 raid dps. Since we have 10 dps, everyone has to do at least 166.6 dps. Raid keeps wiping to enrage with everyone alive. Raid leader: K, which one of you DPS isn't doing at least 166.6 dps? Everyone: Not me. Who really wants to keep wiping at this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 You do NOT have to have them, however I would rather have some sort of "numbers / facts" to back up an encounter / class then baseless speculation. The game was designed with enrage timers in every aspect of the endgame, I do not see what the issue is with having a tool that allows you to complete the content. Would you prefer me raid with NO UI also? Because that could be considered a tool. I can get all the numbers I need without any game meters. And yes, I have played on Everquest 1, with no meters, no macros, and UI turned off. I don't know where you got "baseless speculation" from. The information is there right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabjat Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 That's what I got out of this. I assumed they meant that they're planning on implementing an integrated tool to track your performance with a nice GUI. I can't imagine they wouldn't implement a fully functional combat log for those that want/need all the information. Being able to parse a combat log is a good tool for difficult content. I was a rogue class lead in WoW for many years, and very detailed parsers like WoL and such were awesome tools to help people learn. You could very specifically see where they were taking too much damage, and find a solution. It lets you notice little things, like, "Hey, you only used feint 3 times in that fight. I used it 9, and took far less damage from that AOE. You can probably help reduce the strain on the healers if you try to work it in more." If someone's damage is lagging a little bit, a knowledgable player can go over a parse with them to see what they might be doing wrong. If a rogue in comparable gear was consistently 15% behind me on a given fight, I could go over the parses with them to find areas where they were lagging a bit behind. Maybe they weren't stacking CDs quite as well, that's show up. Maybe they needed to perfect their rotation to improve rupture uptime. Maybe their time on target was just low. The same is true of healers. If one healer is having resource issues, they can go over a parse with a knowledgable player to help figure out the issue, be it CD usage, spell selection, excessive overhealing, or another factor. Combat logs provide extremely valuable information to help a group advance, and it should definitely be possible for all that information to be available in one place, without having to combine 8-16 different parses just to get the complete picture. Quoted for truth. I am getting the feeling that a lot of people against this are coming from a leveling standpoint or simply don't understand how frustrating end game content and hardmodes could be without this vital information at the players' fingertips. They are arguing against something that doesn't apply to them. Against something that is irrelevant in that level 18 flashpoint. When you raid, you NEED combat logs. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 This is what happens when you don't have full combat logs. Raid leader: Hey guys, this boss has 1 million HP and enrage timer of 10 minutes so we need minimum 1666 raid dps. Since we have 10 dps, everyone has to do at least 166.6 dps. Raid keeps wiping to enrage with everyone alive. Raid leader: K, which one of you DPS isn't doing at least 166.6 dps? Everyone: Not me. Who really wants to keep wiping at this point? The person/people underperforming since they hope by luck the boss will die anyways. True story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 inb4 some derp says "you don't need meters to raid because the few super hardcore leet guilds already cleared all nightmare mode." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 When you raid, you NEED combat logs. End of story. If you don't know how to raid, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I can get all the numbers I need without any game meters. And yes, I have played on Everquest 1, with no meters, no macros, and UI turned off. I don't know where you got "baseless speculation" from. The information is there right now. No one gives a crap about EQ1 raiding. It was all time sink and o skill involved. The raiding in TOR is nearly identical to WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TItanten Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 No one gives a crap about EQ1 raiding. It was all time sink and o skill involved. The raiding in TOR is nearly identical to WoW. So a time sink with 0 skill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If you don't know how to raid, yes. Its humorous and ironic to watch people that require all these extra tools in order to do content refer to other players as bad. I always get a kick out it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So a time sink with 0 skill? Yes that's what the cool kids say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So a time sink with 0 skill? The fact that there are some people who are horrible at raiding, poor at raiding, average at raiding, good at raiding, excellent at raiding, and so on regardless of how long they play means that IT TAKES SKILL. Doesn't have to take much, but there is skill involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 No one gives a crap about EQ1 raiding. It was all time sink and o skill involved. The raiding in TOR is nearly identical to WoW. What class did you play on EQ1, What Guild did you raid with? What level Raiding did you achieve? I'm asking because I'd like you to back up the "o skill involved" especially as you brought WoW *laugh* into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabjat Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If you don't know how to raid, yes. This has to be the most uninformed thing I have read this entire thread. You have the attitude of someone who has blissfully missed the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Its humorous and ironic to watch people that require all these extra tools in order to do content refer to other players as bad. I always get a kick out it. It's even more humorous to see people called bad because they want something as basic as a combat log when the developers keep saying it's a good thing. These threads always go this way too, it's tragic. All it'll take is the developers finally releasing it and we'll see who is "bad." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Its humorous and ironic to watch people that require all these extra tools in order to do content refer to other players as bad. I always get a kick out it. It's only fair to have evidence before you accuse someone of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The fact that there are some people who are horrible at raiding, poor at raiding, average at raiding, good at raiding, excellent at raiding, and so on regardless of how long they play means that IT TAKES SKILL. Doesn't have to take much, but there is skill involved. So it takes some skill to raid in WoW and not 0 in Everquest? Just wondering because I think you're contradicting yourself... And all this from someone who cannot raid without add-ons and meters. So funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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