Deamor Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So let me get this straight... You want specific servers, aimed for these so called Hardcore raiders, and with addon support. And we are talking about the same kind of addons as WoW has, as in Deadly Boss Mods, Recount, Omen threat meter, etc... All of these addons and the like which actually TRIVIALIZE all the raid encounters by helping you by automatically telling you to avoid bad stuff, a meter that always shows you how to stay below the tank in aggro, etc. THIS is what you call hardcore raiding? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghaiana Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 People should be allowed to play without having people telling them that their gear or build or actions per minute or dps or something Sucks... But why need a server for that? People don't have to group and they have an ignore button. But more on topic, hardcore servers usually refer to PvP servers without any rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Define Hardcore Hardcore is just a word. Self proclaimed hardcore players claim that recount type mods will help them improove their performance in game further than the current UI allows them. None of the ''casuals'' are interested in that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 So let me get this straight... You want specific servers, aimed for these so called Hardcore raiders, and with addon support. And we are talking about the same kind of addons as WoW has, as in Deadly Boss Mods, Recount, Omen threat meter, etc... All of these addons and the like which actually TRIVIALIZE all the raid encounters by helping you by automatically telling you to avoid bad stuff, a meter that always shows you how to stay below the tank in aggro, etc. THIS is what you call hardcore raiding? Really? Excuse me sir but, i dont think that DBM gearscore Recount Omen etc etc where developed by or for the casual crowd in mind. Last time i checked a clean insteall of WoW comes with none of that, and yet people will not let you come near a raid without the ''propper' mods. Is this what we want for Swtor too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deamor Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Excuse me sir but, i dont think that DBM gearscore Recount Omen etc etc where developed by or for the casual crowd in mind. Last time i checked a clean insteall of WoW comes with none of that, and yet people will not let you come near a raid without the ''propper' mods. Is this what we want for Swtor too? Last I checked, fresh install of WoW doesn't have a damage meter either. Combat logs yes, but not a damage meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 But why need a server for that? People don't have to group and they have an ignore button. But more on topic, hardcore servers usually refer to PvP servers without any rules. Make an experiment, (using WoW) make a clean install then log in to your highest lvl Char and go raiding. In wow add ons are not part of the game, they are the game.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bgiffo Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Excuse me sir but, i dont think that DBM gearscore Recount Omen etc etc where developed by or for the casual crowd in mind. Last time i checked a clean insteall of WoW comes with none of that, and yet people will not let you come near a raid without the ''propper' mods. Is this what we want for Swtor too? Almost every single one of those addons is listed as "required" by almost every top guild. The only exception may be DBM, as some of the fastest progression guilds down bosses before DBM updates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Last I checked, fresh install of WoW doesn't have a damage meter either. Combat logs yes, but not a damage meter. So you would be fine with a combat log but no add on suppoty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabersAtDawn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So being 'hardcore' means you need tools to make the game EASIER? Personally i'm not a fan of add-ons, there are plenty of things they can do to improve the interface internally (scale, move windows, etc....) but do we really need external stuff to make it EASIER for 'hardcore' players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Almost every single one of those addons is listed as "required" by almost every top guild. The only exception may be DBM, as some of the fastest progression guilds down bosses before DBM updates. And this is normal? We want this for Swtor too? A list of ''required'' mods just to be allowed into game content? This is somehow better than what we get right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crashloop Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Funny you should say that since none of the casuals want it, and is quite useless if you are not into Hardcore raiding or Hardcore PvPing where even 2% maters... Addons is nothing about being hardcore, if anything addons make a game more easymode, However addons will help guilds sort out the good and bad players as they can see that player A does this amount of damage and player B does half the damage. Then they can look into and figure out is it gear that is the difference? Is it skill that makes the difference? In WoW addons was needed as some of the later raids seemed to be designed with addons in mind, trying to raid those without bossmod or similar meant you were screwed royally. Another problem with addons is that you create a elitist group of people, in a raid people will say "screw you we are replacing you because you fail at doing damage" to a person who struggle to do the dps he should do. Rather then try to teach him a lot of raidleaders want to replace him to get the raid over with rather then spend time trying to understand how and why he does less damage. I remember when they introduced the gearscore in WoW, suddenly you were excluded from raids because you didn't have the correct epic gear. you could have raided the area several times, knew all bosses, could do nice on damage meters, Yet you were excluded because you missed the "correct" gearscore. In guildruns of course the story is different as a guild will try to help their members improving, but for raids and groups formed outside guild you will end up with a bunch of people being elitist jerks because they feel person B is destroying their fun by not knowing their class 100%. This game needs badly UI addons, or a way to customize the ui as the current one really is not good at all. However I would hope you never get to the same level of addons as in WoW, as it made people rely too much on addons and too less on their own skill with the person they played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deamor Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So you would be fine with a combat log but no add on suppoty? I would very much like to see combat logs in this game without addon support, yes. Combat Logs allow raiding guilds to make parcels and stuff after the raids and figure out what went wrong and where, etc. I've said it multiple times before; in game damage meters are nothing but trouble. Combat logs are what is needed by the raiding guilds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabersAtDawn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Make an experiment, (using WoW) make a clean install then log in to your highest lvl Char and go raiding. In wow add ons are not part of the game, they are the game.... doesn't mean they have to be part of THIS GAME. In WoW addons was needed as some of the later raids seemed to be designed with addons in mind, trying to raid those without bossmod or similar meant you were screwed royally. (quoted because I agree) In fact if they become part of the game the developers have to make the game harder to counter-act that the add-ons make it easier therefore making add-ons a requirement for thier own content, just a stupid vicious elitest (have addons/have not addon) circle. Edited January 11, 2012 by SabersAtDawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Bioware has made their position clear. We either put up with camp luv'n'hugs or we move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Addons is nothing about being hardcore, if anything addons make a game more easymode, However addons will help guilds sort out the good and bad players as they can see that player A does this amount of damage and player B does half the damage. Then they can look into and figure out is it gear that is the difference? Is it skill that makes the difference? In WoW addons was needed as some of the later raids seemed to be designed with addons in mind, trying to raid those without bossmod or similar meant you were screwed royally. Another problem with addons is that you create a elitist group of people, in a raid people will say "screw you we are replacing you because you fail at doing damage" to a person who struggle to do the dps he should do. Rather then try to teach him a lot of raidleaders want to replace him to get the raid over with rather then spend time trying to understand how and why he does less damage. I remember when they introduced the gearscore in WoW, suddenly you were excluded from raids because you didn't have the correct epic gear. you could have raided the area several times, knew all bosses, could do nice on damage meters, Yet you were excluded because you missed the "correct" gearscore. In guildruns of course the story is different as a guild will try to help their members improving, but for raids and groups formed outside guild you will end up with a bunch of people being elitist jerks because they feel person B is destroying their fun by not knowing their class 100%. This game needs badly UI addons, or a way to customize the ui as the current one really is not good at all. However I would hope you never get to the same level of addons as in WoW, as it made people rely too much on addons and too less on their own skill with the person they played. So, do we the players want add ons that will allow segregation of the players in the way that you describe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Bioware has made their position clear. We either put up with camp luv'n'hugs or we move on. I honestly hope you didn't cancel your WoW subscription. Before Swtor was released, people bashed Bioware for making ''WoW with lightsabers''. Now they are bashing bioware for not making the game more like WoW... go figure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrelosDarksky Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Because working with two completely different sets of code is such a great idea. I really hope all these LEET-HARDCORE players leave before they completely destroy this game for the vast majority of subscribers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Because working with two completely different sets of code is such a great idea. I really hope all these LEET-HARDCORE players leave before they completely destroy this game for the vast majority of subscribers. Bioware official responce is that they will not allow WoW like addons... but the LEET crowd is restless and very vocal, so i think that we the carebearz should also be equally vocal too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crashloop Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So, do we the players want add ons that will allow segregation of the players in the way that you describe? Short answer is no, however if they implement a way to measure dps for yourself it could be a good tool in learning how you can improve your playstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Short answer is no, however if they implement a way to measure dps for yourself it could be a good tool in learning how you can improve your playstyle. I was reading just yesteday a 100+ pages thread on recount... do you think that the addition of a recount type of addon will do only that? (help people improove their own personal performance?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Define Hardcore I know exactly where this is going, to the old and tired "I have no proof I'm doing stuff right so I must be better than you" argument. Its like taking an exam where you cant see the questions, if you pass, its through trial and error or luck, not through being more inteligent than the person who passed first time while being able to see the questions. Being scared of metrics and hard figures on your performance does not make you a good player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabersAtDawn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Short answer is no, however if they implement a way to measure dps for yourself it could be a good tool in learning how you can improve your playstyle. I agree with this, even if it was just an efficiency score %. to show you how close you are to the perfect scrore in a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I honestly hope you didn't cancel your WoW subscription. Before Swtor was released, people bashed Bioware for making ''WoW with lightsabers''. Now they are bashing bioware for not making the game more like WoW... go figure... Actually, in this case, people are bashing Bioware for excluding useful features that are in a slew of the most played MMO's on the market. It really has nothing to do with 'being more like wow' and actually has to do with people being lazy and wasting others time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amnie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Bioware official responce is that they will not allow WoW like addons... but the LEET crowd is restless and very vocal, so i think that we the carebearz should also be equally vocal too... the '1337' () crowd hopefully disappears in the next 1-2 months, and I also hope BW realises that those are not the player they want. a) because they are not and will never be the 'player base and b) the game is just not made that way and they will regret catering to that crowd this isn't the first game that lured (ex-)wow players in, having them complain about lack of macros and add-ons and it won't be the last one either. it's time to break the cycle and have this game develop in the direction that the developer wants, not the add-on creater want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeidlerEightyTwo Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hardcore should have permadeath otherwise its not all that hardcore. I hope your guild never raid wipes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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