Very strong Vanguard dps hybrid

[DarkArtsPanda]

@irndizzle

 

Generally, Eliminator's is geared towards commandos, while Combat tech caters to vanguards, and the only difference really is the 4piece set bonus. When you combine all 5 combat tech/eliminator's stats together, they come out exactly the same.

 

PVE (tionese, columi, rakata):

 

2 piece---

Combat Tech: Reduces cooldown of Battle Focus by 15 seconds

Eliminator: Increases crit chance of Charged Bolts and Grav Round by 15%

4 piece---

Combat Tech: Increases damage of High Impact bolt by 8%

Eliminator: Decreases cost of High Impact Bolt by 1 Ammo

 

essentially, the combat tech 2 piece is absolute garbage, because it completely messes up lineing your cooldown with your relic, while the 4 piece is the best thing we have.

 

Hi, I just wanted to point out that the eliminator and combat tech sets do not have exactly the same stats.

 

It looks like they use a mix of reflex and commando equivalent armouring.

Aim is higher on the Combat Tech gear for both Columi and Rakata (I didnt bother looking at tionese)

 

for 5 pieces

columi combat tech = 552 aim

columi eliminator = 543 aim

rakata combat tech = 590 aim

rakata eliminator = 580 aim

 

if you check each piece you'll find for the Columi and Rakata gear that combat-tech has more aim on head, hands and legs and eliminator has more aim for just the chest and feet.

I know it's not much but thought it would be of interest to point out that you can gain an additional 9 Aim (columi) or 10 aim (rakata) by using the eliminator chest or feet as an off piece since you only need 4 for the 4set bonus.

 

anyways, thanks for sharing your findings with Vanguard DPS I'm following this myself with interest and it's great to see you can answer, with confidence, any challenges to your theories.

Edited February 13, 2012 by DarkArtsPanda

[mykaelmjr]

@Hiro. Well I just hit 50 and I will say this guide is the reason I chose vanguard for dps over commando. I'm currently gearing up to use this spec. What would you say is the stat priority for this spec?

[Hirokinae]

@Hiro. Well I just hit 50 and I will say this guide is the reason I chose vanguard for dps over commando. I'm currently gearing up to use this spec. What would you say is the stat priority for this spec?

 

Congrats on 50! Currently I follow the stat priority.

 

AIM > Accuracy 100% > POWER > CRIT > SURGE > ACCURACY

 

You'll want at least 100% Accuracy, and surge; especially with the impending nerfs, is our absolute worst stat according to the spreadsheet found on http://www.sithwarrior.com.

[mykaelmjr]

Thanks for getting back to me so quick. Do you think we will get nerfed? I hope not by much lol I never want to go back to my JK guardian..... lol

[Hirokinae]

Thanks for getting back to me so quick. Do you think we will get nerfed? I hope not by much lol I never want to go back to my JK guardian..... lol

 

There is currently no reason to believe that vanguards will be receiving nerfs. We do not have *glaring* issues such as the scoundrel burst, that need to be addressed. If our raid dps is doing well, it is because of the ingenuity of the many vanguards like those in this thread and on sithwarrior that are promoting healthy discussion of our class.

 

If anything, I would think tactics would need a slight buff, or they need a metric system to gauge the dps of our different specs. All in due time.

 

In the meantime, you can rest easy knowing that we are definitely not going to be pigeon-holed into a "tank only" class with the kind of numbers a decent vanguard can put out.

[toucanpickle]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#8010MZMsr0RrcoZbIbrzh.1

 

so ive been using this spec for pvp and ive been consistently topping damage charts in pvp (i know its not pve) with around 280-300k dmg. This has been the most successful pure dps spec ive used and seen because of the fact i have 2 solid dots on constantly. side note im using high energy cell for the ammo regen. I also have a chance of not only regening my HIB cooldown with stock strike but i also get the chance to refresh the cd of stockstrike and making it free. Now you can imagine the few times ive had successful chains of HIB, stock, ion, HIB, stock etc..... I understand i lose the extra dot from Plasma cell but i get so much damage out if it that its nuts. I have ammo regening so much and fast i never really have issues unless i start spamming ion pulse. I know superheated plasma is a wasted skill point but it allows for the 30% increased HIB. I guess i really want to know if you think its viable for pve. Ive done HM 8 man EV and Karaggas on norm with no issues but i really wanna max my dmg I know with no combat logs its hard to min max, but i was just wondering what people thought of it

Edited February 14, 2012 by toucanpickle

[Hirokinae]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#8010MZMsr0RrcoZbIbrzh.1

 

so ive been using this spec for pvp and ive been consistently topping damage charts in pvp (i know its not pve) with around 280-300k dmg. This has been the most successful pure dps spec ive used and seen because of the fact i have 2 solid dots on constantly. side note im using high energy cell for the ammo regen. I also have a chance of not only regening my HIB cooldown with stock strike but i also get the chance to refresh the cd of stockstrike and making it free. Now you can imagine the few times ive had successful chains of HIB, stock, ion, HIB, stock etc..... I understand i lose the extra dot from Plasma cell but i get so much damage out if it that its nuts. I have ammo regening so much and fast i never really have issues unless i start spamming ion pulse. I know superheated plasma is a wasted skill point but it allows for the 30% increased HIB. I guess i really want to know if you think its viable for pve. Ive done HM 8 man EV and Karaggas on norm with no issues but i really wanna max my dmg I know with no combat logs its hard to min max, but i was just wondering what people thought of it

 

Its certainly a very interesting spec, and i've looked at variations of this myself. One thing is for certain: the ammo consumption of this spec is VERY VERY friendly, with you almost never having to use ion pulse. I'm not sure its the best in pvp, because dot damage isn't really what you want. Rather I would think its a more pve oriented spec. For a comparison, I do pvp with the 8/8/25 spec although I dont see it as a pvp spec, and as it stands (I really hope noone takes this the wrong way, I am being honest and do not wish to inflate my own e-peen =P) I have yet to meet any vanguard who can beat me in damage, and very rarely am I beaten in damage by other classes. I average around 300-500k damage depending on the warzone, with 300k being the low end if I am stuck guarding a turret etc.

 

You would have to compare what you gain vs. what you're losing.

 

A) The main problem I see with this spec, is that you have alot of "wasted" talent points. 3 points gone in superheated plasma, deguass, combat stims, etc. All of which are good for utility, but almost completely useless for PVE dps purposes.

 

B) We are also losing 9% base damage from Rain of fire, 30% crit damage from Asault Trooper.

 

C) The biggest thing we lose is our plasma cell, which for me does around 1300 damage every 6 seconds. This is a huge dps loss as you can imagine.

 

D) Loss of 9% aim AND 6% elemental damage, which as you can imagine is not very nice.

 

Now what do we gain?

 

1) We gain a chance to insta crit our HIB, but at the cost of it hitting for much less, although this synergizes very well with ionic accelerator

 

2) We now have both Gut AND incendiary round. This is a huge plus as long as you remember to keep it up at 100% uptime. With the ammo friendliness of the spec, I would imagine that it wouldn't be hard to keep up both dots either.

 

3) Ammo friendliness. Essentially the biggest perk of this spec is that its probably the most ammo friendly spec out there. I would imagine that you would almost never have to hammershot as high energy cell + free stockstrikes + free HIB means you can sit and spam ion pulse forever.

 

Conclusion:

Its an interesting spec, but as far as raw damage, I feel it falls way too far behind. Being able to crit high impact bolt more is certainly nice, but remember that raid buffed, you can reach almost 40% crit anyways, which further diminishes the usefulness of a garunteed crit, especially if you're critting for much less. I'm too lazy to do math atm, but on average, you would get about an extra crit every 30 seconds from stockstrike, and an extra crit every minute from Gut. so about 3 extra crits every minute on average. I'm sure you'll understand that its very underwhelming, especially since you're losing about 13% base damage on HIB, on top of 30% crit damage.

 

Being able to use Gut is amazing, but pound for pound, Gut simply falls far behind plasma cell, which does more damage, doesn't cut a GCD, and costs no ammo/effort to keep up.

 

All of that said, I think its a very intriguing spec, and am probably going to try it out to get a feel for it. I WISH WISH WISH, there was a combat log to track these things, but as it is, we can only go by trial and error, and good ol' pen/paper napkin math. Thank you for your insight, and I hope my opinions help you to solidify your own ideas.

[Romgaard]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#8010MZMsr0RrcoZbIbrzh.1

 

so ive been using this spec for pvp and ive been consistently topping damage charts in pvp (i know its not pve) with around 280-300k dmg. This has been the most successful pure dps spec ive used and seen because of the fact i have 2 solid dots on constantly. side note im using high energy cell for the ammo regen. I also have a chance of not only regening my HIB cooldown with stock strike but i also get the chance to refresh the cd of stockstrike and making it free. Now you can imagine the few times ive had successful chains of HIB, stock, ion, HIB, stock etc..... I understand i lose the extra dot from Plasma cell but i get so much damage out if it that its nuts. I have ammo regening so much and fast i never really have issues unless i start spamming ion pulse. I know superheated plasma is a wasted skill point but it allows for the 30% increased HIB. I guess i really want to know if you think its viable for pve. Ive done HM 8 man EV and Karaggas on norm with no issues but i really wanna max my dmg I know with no combat logs its hard to min max, but i was just wondering what people thought of it

 

I fail to see where u get the refresh cooldown on stockstrike?..Battering ram only makes your next stockstrike free, does not refresh cooldown..unless it is bugged.

[Downertool]

With the 8/8/25 spec would it be worth it to go 5/11/25 dropping the 9% Aim and picking up Power Armor and Gut? Power Armor may help out the healers a bit, but can Gut make up for the 9% Aim loss?

[Hirokinae]

With the 8/8/25 spec would it be worth it to go 5/11/25 dropping the 9% Aim and picking up Power Armor and Gut? Power Armor may help out the healers a bit, but can Gut make up for the 9% Aim loss?

 

I would say not. The spec rotates around maximizing HIB damage, and as it is, is very ammo intensive. Gut does not have very much synergy with the spec, and losing the 9% aim equates to about a 4% damage loss across the board. From my experience with trying out a similar spec with both gut and incendiary round, the ammo consumption from trying to keep up both dots at the same time was absolutely devastating. You end up falling below the optimal recharge point just from IR + GUT + HIB and then a stockstrike, not to mention you're killing your chances of proccing HIB by having to use an extra GCD on gut every 15 seconds. The reason I believe the 8/8/25 works well is because it relies on HIB to regen ammo, otherwise you're stuck using hammershot alot more than you'd like.

[va_wanderer]

With the 8/8/25 spec would it be worth it to go 5/11/25 dropping the 9% Aim and picking up Power Armor and Gut? Power Armor may help out the healers a bit, but can Gut make up for the 9% Aim loss?

 

Honestly, I'd actually go with Power Armor for sure if you want a bit more on the defense end. That's delicious flat mitigation right there, and IMHO the best two points for defensive measures you can spend.

 

The remaining point's an interesting thought, and honestly depends on what you want.

 

Gut's going to chew on your ammo consumption a bit. You've got some not-ammo-eating options to add a little bite, though.

 

Defensively, you can go 6/10/25 and use Static Field if nobody else is going to be spamming it on the mob (like another Vanguard). The mob's -2% damage for 15 seconds that way, so you're debuffing it for the tank- even if you don't fully talent it, that's still helpful. You could keep one point in Steely Resolve and only have a 6% Aim hit, too.

 

Alternatively, you could splash a point into Tactical Tools or Burnout- TT helps you rotate Pulse Cannon more often into your rotation (it's good for dealing even single-target elemental damage after all), Burnout gives you a small amount of crit and a little extra oomph towards the end with your plasma/Inc. Round DoT's.

[Kiri]

Just to be sure, you are using plasma cell, correct? Someone asked you on the first page but you didn't reply.

 

The entire point is to use the Plasma Cell, so yes.... just to put it down in writing in case somebody asks again. The suggested rotation takes advantage of High Impact Bolt's refreshes/Armor Penetration and Plasma Cell's sustained effects.

 

Kiri

 

P.S. I am levelling with this spec and it is a lot of fun

 

Thank you.

[Hirokinae]

Honestly, I'd actually go with Power Armor for sure if you want a bit more on the defense end. That's delicious flat mitigation right there, and IMHO the best two points for defensive measures you can spend.

 

The remaining point's an interesting thought, and honestly depends on what you want.

 

Gut's going to chew on your ammo consumption a bit. You've got some not-ammo-eating options to add a little bite, though.

 

Defensively, you can go 6/10/25 and use Static Field if nobody else is going to be spamming it on the mob (like another Vanguard). The mob's -2% damage for 15 seconds that way, so you're debuffing it for the tank- even if you don't fully talent it, that's still helpful. You could keep one point in Steely Resolve and only have a 6% Aim hit, too.

 

Alternatively, you could splash a point into Tactical Tools or Burnout- TT helps you rotate Pulse Cannon more often into your rotation (it's good for dealing even single-target elemental damage after all), Burnout gives you a small amount of crit and a little extra oomph towards the end with your plasma/Inc. Round DoT's.

 

you are entirely correct, and variations of this spec to provide utility/survivability are entirely possible. However, please understand that it will not satisfy the e-peen hogging pure dps loving elitist lovers who want to see huge numbers and pad the dps meters while trying to rank on galaxy of logs. I mean...

[va_wanderer]

you are entirely correct, and variations of this spec to provide utility/survivability are entirely possible. However, please understand that it will not satisfy the e-peen hogging pure dps loving elitist lovers who want to see huge numbers and pad the dps meters while trying to rank on galaxy of logs. I mean...

 

*nods* Understood. Dropping points into defense skills won't up your DPS meter, but it can help keep it from zeroing out via death.

[Hirokinae]

*nods* Understood. Dropping points into defense skills won't up your DPS meter, but it can help keep it from zeroing out via death.

 

Haha i'm just having a little bit of fun. =) Like i said, valid points from you and helping out healers is always a plus. For the most part, however I find that careful use of defensive cooldowns and avoidance of mechanics saves my butt a lot more than a couple of talent points, so I try to maximize my dps. Essentially my view is, the faster things die, the less damage the healers have to heal through.

[Sunsoar]

Here is a spec I have been playing around with.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRhrdMboMZMsZfhboz.1

 

Close range burst is awesome:

 

Been starting with Incen Round, followed by HIB and SS.

 

Fill with some Ion Bursts.

 

Chill in Plasma cell.

 

 

Try it out and let me know what you think. I have been playing around with builds and I find not having Charge sucks. So I built a build and been having a blast with it in warzones. Huttball without charge is no fun at all.

[va_wanderer]

Haha i'm just having a little bit of fun. =) Like i said, valid points from you and helping out healers is always a plus. For the most part, however I find that careful use of defensive cooldowns and avoidance of mechanics saves my butt a lot more than a couple of talent points, so I try to maximize my dps. Essentially my view is, the faster things die, the less damage the healers have to heal through.

 

True, though I was looking with some interest in the fact that each Trooper generates their own stack of effects on a target- and those effects are cumulative.

 

Someone noted to me recently that Commandos each can put a 5-stack of Grav Round on a target, and each stack applies fully- so every full Grav stack is 20% reduction to armor rating.

 

Sadly, the closest thing we have is Static Field- on the other hand, the idea of 16-man Vanguard squads that taser a target for a combined 64% damage reduction is kinda awesome...

[Hirokinae]

Here is a spec I have been playing around with.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRhrdMboMZMsZfhboz.1

 

Close range burst is awesome:

 

Been starting with Incen Round, followed by HIB and SS.

 

Fill with some Ion Bursts.

 

Chill in Plasma cell.

 

 

Try it out and let me know what you think. I have been playing around with builds and I find not having Charge sucks. So I built a build and been having a blast with it in warzones. Huttball without charge is no fun at all.

 

^^. Thank you for the reply. To be honest, I feel that the build simply does not have much damage potential. You do not have ionic accelerator, which is probably the biggest reason to be assault, and the ammo consumption in the spec would be rather steep. I think you'd end up using hammer shot a lot more than you'd like because you lack the ammo regen from high impact bolt, or high energy cell from tactics. For pve dps, I would probably shy away. For pvp utility, it might be ok, but more of a tanky build.

[Sunsoar]

^^. Thank you for the reply. To be honest, I feel that the build simply does not have much damage potential. You do not have ionic accelerator, which is probably the biggest reason to be assault, and the ammo consumption in the spec would be rather steep. I think you'd end up using hammer shot a lot more than you'd like because you lack the ammo regen from high impact bolt, or high energy cell from tactics. For pve dps, I would probably shy away. For pvp utility, it might be ok, but more of a tanky build.

 

This is definitely not a PvE spec in any means. I use that only for PvP and having the points in Parallactic Combat Stims helps with ammo regen.

 

As I said I find this a good spec for hard hitting consecutive abilities. Not having Ionic Accelerator is a loss for PvE but like I said I use this spec as a DPS PvP spec. The loss of charge in any other build is no fun, and having Charge for Huttball is a must.

 

I tried a build based around gut, but gut is an ability that doesn't offer much in PvP.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Sunsoar

[Nomiematiko]

Normaly i use Iron Fist like specc, but 1 or 2 talents changed, with Combat Tech gear and some eliminator/rakata pieces (set is Combat Tech)

 

I'm going to give this build a try, and since i like having some survival capabilities i'm not going for the Fire pulse skill(15sec cd is a nono).

 

Using Ion pulse to stack 5times is a must, Static field and Power Armor are awsome dmg reduction talents, got all the talents to increase HIB and Stockstrike dmg + set bonus from Combat Tech, with dual build incoming i'm going for this build and the one i use now almost like Taugrim Iron Fist.

(congratz for the awsome job your doing for the Vanguard community Taugrim)

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GMZMsrbRrfkdcZb.1

 

Ofc Storm > everyother skill just love it

 

Rank 63 Vanguard, afk

Edited February 16, 2012 by Nomiematiko

[mykaelmjr]

@Hiro

 

In regards to HIB, are you using it every single time it's up or are you only using it on proc?

[Clucker]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMZfhrbzGhM.1

 

 

Why not this?

 

The 3% endurance does zero for actual dps. While Parralactic Combat Stims has the potential to give you more ammo for more Ion Pulse spam.

 

Sweltering heat I feel is just a good utility for trash mobs.

 

I guess the 3% endurance is just useless imo.

 

I love this spec though, I wish we had an aggro dump ability though.

[EteREaL]

First of all thanks for all the informations and the work you're doing Hirokinae, reading your posts is a real pleasure for the rest of the DPS vanguards.

 

Recently I've been wondering more or less where the raw dps of the vanguard lies, in order to have a full picture and compare it with the rest of the dps classes. So looking at your little experiment in page 7, where you calculated the damage along 150 seconds for the assault spec, we can derive the dps 131000/150 = 873 dps. Plasma cell wasn't included in that calculation but i remember reading in another post of yours that it does 1200 damage every 6 seconds which is 200dps more. So adding the two number together we have that an assault vanguard full rakata does 1073 dps (in the ideal case where no hammershots where necessary, which is never possible).

 

This number seems rather low when you compare it with the average dps for scoundrels/hybrid sages which is know to be around 1300/1400. Are we that low in comparison with other classes?

Edited February 21, 2012 by EteREaL

[Khoifish]

For all of you Vanguards out there, what DPS set should we go once we start getting Rakata tokens?

[Hirokinae]

For all of you Vanguards out there, what DPS set should we go once we start getting Rakata tokens?

 

The dps set for troopers is combat tech, which is a HUGE boost to our dps. On top of that, i'd like to know that it is best for dps to pick up 4 pieces of rakata, plus the eliminator boots because it has more aim than the rakata boots.