"Arena PVP" is Horrible

[MarkAskar]

As I said in my wall-of-text noone probably read, I'm perfectly fine with Arenas. I enjoy them, but I've always enjoyed the battleground/warzone style PvP more.

 

I'd like both, but I don't want one to dominate the other, or have such a significant influence on it. I was by no means a bad Arena player in WoW, I consistently made medium-high rating with my Warrior throughout every season save the most recent 2 (or 3? Not sure if any more have passed since I quit:confused:). I was always between 1800 and 2000 at the end of each season, peaking at 2247 in Season 3. While I was certainly nowhere near the top players, I consider myself a fairly decent player overall. In the end, Arena was just a sidegame to me. Something I did all the time, but only occasionally for fun. The main reason was to acquire gear that would allow me to be competitive in all PvP, namely Battlegrounds.

 

The issue in the end, was that a player who mastered the arena would often have gear far beyond that of someone who never touched it, making arena necessary for anyone to be competitive in Battlegrounds.

 

It all comes down to preference in my opinion. If you're all for the super competitive high level arena stuff, go for it! If you prefer the more chaotic style of Battlegrounds/Warzones, go for it! There's no reason the rewards from one should grant dominance of people who play the other. I liked the competition in arena, but too often it would come down to gear over skill, at least at lower ranks. The higher you rose and the more gear you acquired, the less this issue persisted, but it was an unnecessary barrier for entry into the arena. I can't help but wonder how many great PvPers got put off of arena because of this and simply backed out of it.

 

I'd love some arena-style competition in SWTOR, as long as Warzones aren't effected by said competition. Keep the gear open to all who PvP, regardless of whether it's in a competitive arena style or an open warzone. Base your competition on knowledge, skill, and experience. Not superior gearing. There are plenty of options for gear, those with incredible game knowledge can customise their character to succeed as they see fit without gaining ridiculous gear advantages over those who don't. It should come down to skill every time, regardless of whether you've been 50 for 5 months and the other guy's only been 50 for a week.

[Ganadorf]

And if the devs want to know how to make pvp that is good, stop looking at wow and start looking at DAOC.

 

That's not a financially viable course of action

[Gestas]

Arenas don't have a monopoly on PvP gear in WoW, either, currently.

I haven't played the game in its current condition. But presuming you're correct, it's a little late. For a very long time Arenas had a monopoly on the top-level PVP items. You didn't get the best PVP items from World PVPing or doing Battlegrounds, in other words. You were forced to participate in Arenas if you wanted the best PVP gear.

 

Anyway, the popularity of Arenas in WoW speaks for itself.

Not necessarily. I'm sure if the most efficient way of getting the best items in the game was by banging your head against a wall, then rest assured, banging your head against a wall would suddenly become very popular.

Most of the veteran WoW players that I've talked to preferred World PVP over Arenas. That's just my own experience though.

There's nothing contradictory about what I said at all. Item disparity only comes into play for newer arena players.

You wrote items don't matter much in Arena play, and then went on to give an example of how items do affect Arena play.

[captainscarbeard]

That's not a financially viable course of action

 

Why? Star wars is a huge IP, bioware can do without the kids that want wow-style pvp.

[Gestas]

You acknowledge that MMOs aren't balanced around 1v1, but then claim that because of that, 5v5 isn't balanced?

 

Yes, obviously.

 

Let me give you an extremely simple example.

 

If all other things being equal (skill, items, etc.), A beats B (1V1).

 

Then what would happen if 5 As went up against 5 Bs.

[RealAeiouy]

Arenas are just multi player dueling. I agree there is no need for it

[Dawgone]

World PvP will never ever work in this game until they get rid of shards.

 

It's stupid being on the same server as your guild mates but potentially split amongst several different shards....

 

Nothing to fight for...

[Gestas]

3v3, and 5v5 are fine

 

If 3V3, and 5V5 were truly fine, then hypothetically team composition wouldn't matter. But team composition matters a great deal in WoW Arenas. Team A composition in principle beats team B composition (if all other things are equal).

 

And the reason why this is stems from the fact that each class isn't balanced against every other class for 1V1 encounters.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Gestas

[Ganadorf]

Why? Star wars is a huge IP, bioware can do without the kids that want wow-style pvp.

 

If the Star Wars name alone could carry an MMO, Star Wars Galaxies would still exist

[Ganadorf]

If 3V3, and 5V5 were truly fine, then hypothetically team composition wouldn't matter. But team composition matters a great deal in WoW Arenas. Team A composition in principle beats team B composition (if all other things are equal).

 

And the reason why this is stems from the fact that each class isn't balanced against every other class for 1V1 encounters.

 

5v5 requires every Class to be viable in one or more composition of 5; not for every Class to be balanced against each other 1v1

[Furad]

I'm sure it's been said already, but let me say it again -

 

If you haven't played a level 50 in DAoC up to at least RR5 then you have no idea what "good" PvP is. Here's a clue, it damn sure isn't instance based.

 

WZ's are a hoot sure, but they're controlled and you have to do what someone else wants.

 

I want freedom to roam and hunt.. Not so I can gank someone or some group, but so I can meet my enemy on the battlefield, no rules, no objectives, no clock, just us vs. them. I don't want to know where they are or where their going to be, I want to have to LOOK for them.

 

You think hunters would ever want to bag a deer in a zoo?

 

Sometimes I also like to solo. I might get rolled all day long by zergs and groups. But I might also get that one perfect 1v1 or 1v2 that makes it all worth it. In the end, when the challenge is greater then so is the reward. and kids, objective based instanced pvp is not a challenge.

[Gestas]

5v5 requires every Class to be viable in one or more composition of 5

 

That's not sufficient for balance as evidenced by the fact that some team compositions in principle beat other team compositions 10/10 times if all other things are equal.

 

If class A in principle beats class B 10/10 times, presuming all other things are equal, then, obviously, 5 As versus 5 Bs isn't going to be balanced. And this is exactly what we observe with WoW.

 

So in order for balance to be achieved, each class needs to be balanced against every class in the game.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Gestas

[dembonez]

I can actually agree here. Arena killed most of the fun of PvP for me. It is like playing ADHD chess. The outcome is decided before hand depending on what pops up. I always appreciated WAR in that regard, made large scale PvP or "RvR", fun. As far as I am concerned Arena made, balance wise, PvP crap. I did it plenty, got bored. It had nothing to do with losing or winning... I just did not care, and quickly. The same strat over and over because certain comps were essentially required. Sure once in a while you would get some great guys who bucked the trend but mostly it was repetition over and over.

[Ganadorf]

I'm sure it's been said already, but let me say it again -

 

If you haven't played a level 50 in DAoC up to at least RR5 then you have no idea what "good" PvP is. Here's a clue, it damn sure isn't instance based.

 

WZ's are a hoot sure, but they're controlled and you have to do what someone else wants.

 

I want freedom to roam and hunt.. Not so I can gank someone or some group, but so I can meet my enemy on the battlefield, no rules, no objectives, no clock, just us vs. them. I don't want to know where they are or where their going to be, I want to have to LOOK for them.

 

You think hunters would ever want to bag a deer in a zoo?

 

Sometimes I also like to solo. I might get rolled all day long by zergs and groups. But I might also get that one perfect 1v1 or 1v2 that makes it all worth it. In the end, when the challenge is greater then so is the reward. and kids, objective based instanced pvp is not a challenge.

 

Yeah, most people PvP to win; not to "challenge" themselves

 

If I wanted to challenge myself, I'd become a body builder, not play a Star Wars MMO

Edited January 11, 2012 by Ganadorf

[Ganadorf]

That's not sufficient for balance as evidenced by the fact that some team compositions in principle beat other team compositions 10/10 times if all other things are equal.

 

If class A in principle beats class B 10/10 times, presuming all other things are equal, then, obviously, 5 As versus 5 Bs isn't going to be balanced. And this is exactly what we observe with WoW.

 

Except that's not how it works... at all

 

Just because a Class isn't viable 1v1, doesn't mean that a composition with them in it is less viable than a composition with their 1v1 Counter Class

[Furad]

Yeah, most people PvP to win; not to "challenge" themselves

 

If I wanted to challenge myself, I'd become a body builder, not play a Star Wars MMO

 

So if you could fight level 20's all day and "win", you'd rather do that than fight 50's and lose some?

[YzenDanek]

Yes, obviously.

 

Let me give you an extremely simple example.

 

If all other things being equal (skill, items, etc.), A beats B (1V1).

 

Then what would happen if 5 As went up against 5 Bs.

 

Your "simple" example isn't simple at all.

 

I can think of real examples right off the bat where 5 "B"s would absolutely obliterate 5 "A"s in different games.

[MarkAskar]

Yeah, I absolutely loved WAR style World PvP. I would have played that game even now, despite all of its flaws, if only it had been sustainable at end-game. A game like that will always be niche though, since those of us who prefer the open hunt and the thrill of not knowing what comes next are by far the minority, to those that prefer to play out a predetermined scenario. SWTOR cannot support the same degree of World PvP as WAR, I'm afraid. Few games could, and fewer still would risk it.

[dembonez]

Yeah, I absolutely loved WAR style World PvP. I would have played that game even now, despite all of its flaws, if only it had been sustainable at end-game. A game like that will always be niche though, since those of us who prefer the open hunt and the thrill of not knowing what comes next are by far the minority, to those that prefer to play out a predetermined scenario. SWTOR cannot support the same degree of World PvP as WAR, I'm afraid. Few games could, and fewer still would risk it.

 

Yeah. I am sad that WAR became what it is. I would still be there if I could actually play when I wanted. Large scale PvP will always be more fun than PvP in a box. I would accept it if it were not for the fact that teams were always shifting between seasons. Small scale pvp is probably easier to balance but damn if it is not boring as hell and predictable.

[Furad]

One thing that stands about RvR in DAoC is when you're roaming around and you see another group pop into clip plane. People start yelling in vent, INC! Because you literally had no idea they were going to be there unless you set it up that way. This is the kind of stuff that gets your heart rate going.

 

When I play Alderon or Huttball I will always know exactly where the enemy will be.

 

Instanced PvP is fun, but it's predictable and therefor lacks excitement.

 

It's sad to me that there are so many people out there that play MMO's have never experienced that rush.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Furad

[captainscarbeard]

If the Star Wars name alone could carry an MMO, Star Wars Galaxies would still exist

 

Your right. SWG was terrible, SOE spent all their time on a good crafting system instead of making it feel like star wars. Bioware didn't make that mistake. Sure, parts of the game need alot of work, but they don't need to make it into wow2 to make it successful.

[Ganadorf]

So if you could fight level 20's all day and "win", you'd rather do that than fight 50's and lose some?

 

Name one game that has Rated PvP where level 20s are bracketed with level 50s

[Furad]

Name one game that has Rated PvP where level 20s are bracketed with level 50s

 

You're missing the point. Would you rather have a challenge or would you rather have it be easymode and win 100% of the time?

 

Personally? I'll take a challenge even if It means I lose 75% of the time. Winning just isn't worth it if it isn't earned.

[dolphinsashimi]

That's an invalid argument though. An ad hominem.

 

 

 

You made the claim though, so you need to provide the proof.

 

Even if I did post my character, I would have no way of proving it is actually mine... so your asking for the impossible. But, again, that doesn't matter since you made the claim and thus the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. Also, your argument is merely an ad hominem, like I said before.

 

 

 

Didn't I see you on the Virgin Diaries?

 

woah watch out we've got ourselves not only an internet ******, but one who dabbled in introductory philosophy.

 

you throw around terms like ad hominem yet in your very first reply to the thread you stated that someones opinion was worthless because he cancelled his sub. pretty sure that's a logical fallacy, and I would tell you which one if i gave a flying **** about philosophical bs argumentative structure blah blah.

 

reading through all your posts I just get the general sense that you were never at any point successful at arena pvp and probably have had very little to no practical experience with the system. your completely idiotic comments in your prior post about arena tactics just made me facepalm harder than I ever had before (congrats btw).

 

Your animosity towards tiered arena pvp awards just screams that you have never succeeded in actually obtaining a meaningful lot of items from such a system, and probably never will be it from lack of skill or social skills in finding competent teammates (HEY DURS A ARGUMENTATIVE FALLACY HERE LOL U SHOULD CALL ME OUT ON THE INTERNETZ). I find it so very troubling that you are using the guise of preserving world pvp as the basis for denying a tiered arena rewards system. world pvp was fundamentally created in wow by the lack of easy to access pvp. If you played vanilla wow you would've known that for a significant amount of time that world pvp was the only pvp hence the sheer amount of it.

 

When WSG and AV were first released there were no meaningful or must have pvp rewards, yet world pvp became less frequent and eventually even became rare on some servers. This period of crap tier pvp rewards lasted for a considerable amount of time as well yet more and more people flocked to battlegrounds over world pvp.

 

The idea of promoting world pvp is just about the dumbest thing a MMO can do. You are telling the designers to eliminate ease of access, flexibility in when players want to play, and to focus on unstructured chaos for the basis of spreading "fun" to the masses. PVP is inherently competitive and you simply don't understand that. How do you have unstructured and chaotic competition? Answer that.

 

PS. you are throwing around first year philosophical terms that you don't even fully comprehend on a star wars forum (ala your first reply). it doesn't make you look smart or important. It makes you look like a douchebag. Also I question the status of your virginity.

Edited January 11, 2012 by dolphinsashimi

[Ganadorf]

You're missing the point. Would you rather have a challenge or would you rather have it be easymode and win 100% of the time?

 

Personally? I'll take a challenge even if It means I lose 75% of the time. Winning just isn't worth it if it isn't earned.

 

Sorry, I've never heard of this game "You're missing <saving space> isn't earned"

 

With a name that long, I'm assuming it's foreign?