Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Xcore]

Hey Xcore ..

Thanks for the preview.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

I see how much time you are putting into this

and I look forward to the final cut.

 

Thanks

 

Yea, give me a little bit more time and the full, final video should be good. I hope you like it and I hope it showcases to Bioware more clearly what we are discussing.

 

Although, I don't really know if Bioware gives a **** anymore....

[Xcore]

i appreciate all the extensive work you've done OP on this issue that many players felt but couldn't exactly put words to.

 

the transitions in your video are very distracting though. pulls away from the actual content being displayed. i would advise removing that nonsense from the final product and doing more work highlighting the actual ability lag (maybe add timers, etc).

 

They're not exactly transitions and cut-aways, its actually all in 3D space.

 

But no, none of those shenanigans are in the actual video I am working on... as I said, this was supposed to be a fun/cinematic little preview. The actual project is more analytical/steam-lined etc.

 

I agree, a video in that presentation couldn't actually properly showcase any issues.

[xXcronicXx]

During the development of Star Wars: The Old Republic, we’ve been paying a lot of attention to the game’s responsiveness. As pointed out by some people on the Forum, a very responsive experience is one of the factors that separate the best MMOs from the others. This is something we are fully aware of and take extremely seriously.

 

Several of the issues brought forth by the community have already been dealt with and you should see the fixes integrated in coming patches, including those coming this month. Every lead mentioned on the forum is being investigated and I cannot stress enough how useful your feedback is – especially when coupled with the level of details found in some of the posts.

 

So I’d really like to thank the community for this very constructive feedback.

 

Thanks again and best regards,

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1269596#edit1269596

 

OMG people have a little patience. there is not a button that say fix Ability Delay...

Edited January 14, 2012 by xXcronicXx

[SloatHunter]

Lol, noticed part II of the problem very clearly doing some lvl 30ish tanking on my darkness assassin last night.

 

I got block gibbed.

 

Basically, if your toon is about to, or in the process of making the block animation you aint doing jack and get GCD locked from using all abilities yes, -even- defensive.

[Taurusaud]

Update: Ability Delay & Character Responsiveness

 

The video is in the works and I am dedicating as much time as I can to it, the reason for the lengthy delay is simply that it will not be 1-2min video but a real analysis of the problems and ramifications.

 

So until then, I'd like to release a little preview video, just to prove that I am on it and because it was fun to make. I hope you enjoy it for what its worth.

 

Preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

 

 

 

 

Also, here you can see the actual work in progress (for those who care):

 

Ability Delay & Avatar Responsiveness

 

1) Short Introduction to Threadline and topic of discussion

2) Start with Positives -- SW:TOR Instants/No GCD Success!

 

Sequence: (1) -- Showcasing examples of failure to trigger as well as delay

 

Ability failures to trigger even though it is "not" on CD, GCD is "not" in effect, there is "no" other ability being channeled or cast and all ability requirements are met.

 

Showcase smooth (instant) WoW ability executions under any circumstances.

 

Sequence: (2) -- Ultimate effect of delay in PvP

 

SW:TOR Warzone footage, showcase ability delay/execution delay and how it affects fluidity in PvP.

 

WoW BG Footage, showcase effect of instant ability executions without delay and distinguish differences in fluid/seamless gameplay.

 

Sequence: (3) -- Ultimate effect of delay in PvE

 

WoW competitive footage, showcase necessity of perfect responsiveness and its effect on tuning a goo endgame (PvE and PvP Interactions).

 

SW:TOR Rotation, showcase visual and feedback sluggishness, feeling of "lag in response", feeling of disconnect from Avatar.

 

WoW "The Dummy Movement Test", showcase (Emphasize Importance of) full movement with target swapping and ability exections.

 

WoW "Caster and Hunter" rotations, showcase smoothness of rotation chaining "Casted and Instants" as well as "Procs". (Emphasize Importance)

 

Sequence: (4) -- Ultimate effect on Healing

 

WoW Healing footage, emphasize on the "need" for responsiveness to healers for movement and chaining of "Casted" abilities with "Instant" abilities

 

Sequence: (5) -- Animations, clipping, aesthetics, importance of "perfect" visual feedback

 

WoW animations example, showcase "ugly"/simple/quick animations in rogue/melee rotation.

 

WoW animation example, showcase "procs" and "instant execution" of non GCD/Instants in animation.

 

SW:TOR animation example, showcase "nice"/elaborate/long animations

 

SW:TOR animation example, showcase "procs" and success as well as failure due to size of animation.

 

Sequence: (6) -- Importance of Perfection, attention to detail in feedback - Animation/Sound Sync

 

WoW flying mount example, showcase incredible precision of acoustic feedback

 

WoW animation sync, showcase incredible precision of visual stimulation/feedback

 

SW:TOR animation sync, showcase lack of precision, lack of attention to detail of stimulation/feedback

 

Emphasize importance these contribute to the feeling of "being" the Avatar and not "playing" the Avatar. SRPGs you "play" a character/story, MMORPGs you "ARE" the character -- Must feel perfect for longevity and to eliminate feeling of disconnect.

 

Sequence: (7)

 

WoW UI Response and accuracy, showcase buttonpress (UI Response) accuracy to animation/sound/effect of ability.

 

SW:TORs UI creates feeling of disconnect, showcase unreliability, lack of accuracy.

 

Sequence: (8)

 

SW:TOR Warzone combat footage and frustration

 

WoW BG footage of perfect responsiveness and fun combat

 

I guarantee you're doing 10 times more work on this issue than Bioware. I'm not sure why you are, everybody knows this game is a sinking ship and you aren't the captain..

[rijde]

thanks for the video, short bus gaming. i love 20 seconds worth of the gold helmet. The threads explaining what actually needs tweaks got buried and here x-gaming, olympic arena, world of meters keeps contributing nada.

[anathematize]

They're not exactly transitions and cut-aways, its actually all in 3D space.

not to get into a semantic debate (i edit film for a living)... but they are still transitions from one scene to the next. so yes, they are transitions. regardless of how they were created.

 

IMO it was a waste of your CPU cycles rendering it and probably increased you editing time 10 fold.

 

now with my editing critique aside...

 

i eagerly look forward to the final product. i always felt something was slightly "off" with this game from the beta forward and your original post made me feel like i wasn't actually going insane. i hope the final product illustrates this in such a way that people CANNOT ignore the issue.

 

keep fighting the good fight!

Edited January 14, 2012 by anathematize

[fredspekvet]

I guarantee you're doing 10 times more work on this issue than Bioware. I'm not sure why you are, everybody knows this game is a sinking ship and you aren't the captain..

 

Oh come on, you're such a drama queen.

 

And isnt it handy that you have a camera at Bioware's HQ so you can see exactly what they're doing and zoom in on their screens.

 

Seriously. you don't have a clue about the kind of work Bioware is putting into this game, including this bug - it's probarly already fixed in the 1.1 or 1.2 patch (1.2 is coming next month, or so I heard) . Do you have any idea how long it took Blizzard to take out the ability delay bug? you should be applauding Bioware because they fix their bugs so fast, not making posts like this.

 

Sinking ship? sure, that's why the subscriptions keep going up.. if you dont like the game, don't play it. come back in 6 months and see what a beautiful game you'll have.

 

I know the ability delay is a serious issue and many people are affected by it , and i'm not trying to dismiss that. but i'm 100% sure they are either very close to fixing it , or have it fixed already. but fixes require time to test, to make sure that the problem really is , in fact corrected. Have a bit of patience...

Edited January 14, 2012 by fredspekvet

[DarthHogger]

Hey Xcore ..

Thanks for the preview.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

I see how much time you are putting into this

and I look forward to the final cut.

Looks like a wow advertisement.

[Xcore]

not to get into a semantic debate (i edit film for a living)... but they are still transitions from one scene to the next. so yes, they are transitions. regardless of how they were created.

 

IMO it was a waste of your CPU cycles rendering it and probably increased you editing time 10 fold.

 

now with my editing critique aside...

 

i eagerly look forward to the final product. i always felt something was slightly "off" with this game from the beta forward and your original post made me feel like i wasn't actually going insane. i hope the final product illustrates this in such a way that people CANNOT ignore the issue.

 

keep fighting the good fight!

 

I know its technically a transition of course, going from clip to clip etc. I just wanted to point out it isn't one of those "presets" etc...

 

I'm having some fun with the preview, the actual video I'm working on is more focused on the issues at hand and displaying those etc...

[Taurusaud]

Oh come on, you're such a drama queen.

 

And isnt it handy that you have a camera at Bioware's HQ so you can see exactly what they're doing and zoom in on their screens.

 

Seriously. you don't have a clue about the kind of work Bioware is putting into this game, including this bug - it's probarly already fixed in the 1.1 or 1.2 patch (1.2 is coming next month, or so I heard) . Do you have any idea how long it took Blizzard to take out the ability delay bug? you should be applauding Bioware because they fix their bugs so fast, not making posts like this.

 

Sinking ship? sure, that's why the subscriptions keep going up.. if you dont like the game, don't play it. come back in 6 months and see what a beautiful game you'll have.

 

I know the ability delay is a serious issue and many people are affected by it , and i'm not trying to dismiss that. but i'm 100% sure they are either very close to fixing it , or have it fixed already. but fixes require time to test, to make sure that the problem really is , in fact corrected. Have a bit of patience...

 

 

There's so much false with your post I shouldn't even bother acknowledging it.

 

 

WoW has NEVER had an ability delay bug and saying it did is a complete lie. WoW's interface worked reliably out the door, which is one of the reasons it garnered 12.5 million subscribers. Bioware couldn't accomplish in 2011 what Blizzard did in 2004.

 

 

You say "it's probably fixed in 1.1 or 1.2"... then how come there is NOTHING on the PTR forum about it? How come it's not in any patch notes? Don't you think, given this bug has received more attention than ANY OTHER SUBJECT regarding this game, don't you think there would be SOME mention of a fix had they fixed it? Don't you think it would appear somewhere in the patch notes?

 

 

To the contrary - Bioware has unstickied the only thread on this forum where they acknowledge this issue. That thread which used to be stickied atop this forum is GONE. All evidence instead points towards their sweeping this issue under the rug rather than fixing it.

 

 

But do continue keeping your head buried under the sand. Given that many of us are out $60 and the price of a new computer, comedic relief is past it's due around here.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Taurusaud

[Tukat]

looks like paragon kill vid ( eye of the tiger ting )

[Shuriko]

Looks like a wow advertisement.

 

That coming from a guy that took a World of Warcrafts Npc´s name >.>

[Halphas]

They cant fix it. The engine they use is terrible. It's not bugged. Unsub and play wow/wait for gw2.

[DarthHogger]

That coming from a guy that took a World of Warcrafts Npc´s name >.>

 

Yes so it's an objective comment.

[SloatHunter]

I guarantee you're doing 10 times more work on this issue than Bioware. I'm not sure why you are, everybody knows this game is a sinking ship and you aren't the captain..

 

I'm going to assume ( I know its not always safe to assume ) hes doing this because the HMS failboat World of Warcraft has been sinking on autopilot and taken an Ice Berg to the lower starboard bow.

 

Tor represented "A New Hope" to so many people who ( myself included ) were really tired of the direction the game was taking, rehashed content, stat inflation, dumbing down, ect..ect.. as well as alot of people who may have never liked the whole campy cheesy atmosphere of the game or maby wizzardz and elves in general.

 

Now fast forward to ToR, THE GAME "LOOKS" AMAZING! there are so many awesome (in theory) mechanics and fresh concepts ( sprint being active OOC without having to be coolddown stingy ). The combat the charactors the equipment ( well mostly ) the array of abilities ALL BLOW PREVIOUS TITLES OUT OF THE WATER!! However...

 

When you arrive to find that the GCD system is broken and all this eye-candy takes presence over gameplay this SICKLY BITTERSWEET feeling of depression follows. Its like being trapped in a gamers HELL where all you ever wanted, all your hopes and dreams are right there in front of you yet, alas, just out of reach.

 

-Sloat, 3rd class hunter of <KiithSa Hunter>

[WarlordThuran]

They cant fix it. The engine they use is terrible. It's not bugged. Unsub and play wow/wait for gw2.

 

Funny, according the community manager's interview a week or two ago, they said they were already looking into fixing it.

 

So much for that claim.

[Xcore]

I'm going to assume ( I know its not always safe to assume ) hes doing this because the HMS failboat World of Warcraft has been sinking on autopilot and taken an Ice Berg to the lower starboard bow.

 

Tor represented "A New Hope" to so many people who ( myself included ) were really tired of the direction the game was taking, rehashed content, stat inflation, dumbing down, ect..ect.. as well as alot of people who may have never liked the whole campy cheesy atmosphere of the game or maby wizzardz and elves in general.

 

Now fast forward to ToR, THE GAME "LOOKS" AMAZING! there are so many awesome (in theory) mechanics and fresh concepts ( sprint being active OOC without having to be coolddown stingy ). The combat the charactors the equipment ( well mostly ) the array of abilities ALL BLOW PREVIOUS TITLES OUT OF THE WATER!! However...

 

When you arrive to find that the GCD system is broken and all this eye-candy takes presence over gameplay this SICKLY BITTERSWEET feeling of depression follows. Its like being trapped in a gamers HELL where all you ever wanted, all your hopes and dreams are right there in front of you yet, alas, just out of reach.

 

-Sloat, 3rd class hunter of <KiithSa Hunter>

 

Pretty much, add to that the feeling of the people in charge of this potential "dream-come-true" being completely indifferent and out of touch with what a "Gamer" wants and you get pretty much "me"...

 

I should note that its in Bioware's and "any" developers best interest to seriously address this issue of "why" do people go back to WoW? Because if you can solve that riddle you'll have yourself a goldmine as WoW is (even to those who play it) dreadful.... everyone is looking for a way out.

 

And it is my firm belief that WoW's success and continued success in the face of ALL competition is simply "Gamplay and Responsiveness", this connection between YOU and VIRTUAL YOU. No other game does it like WoW, you can have all the features and more than WoW, but if you cannot match the "feeling" of connection and control... its all for nothing.

 

Thus this frustration, all this potential, all this "story" and additions ALL for nothing... because of 0.5 seconds...

 

 

ZERO POINT FIVE SECONDS (<-- Metaphor for this feeling of disconnect) eliminate "years" of work by "hundreds" of people, instantly. Every new and cool feature made completely meaningless by the lack of attention to detail in the gameplay department.

 

(Its just about the only "true" instant in SW:TOR)

 

 

 

P.S.: You wanna know the funniest part about all of this? Once the exodus happens, nothing else matters. Even if its all fixed (AND) made better... "nobody" is coming back because an MMO is a continuous time investment, once trust in the product is lost, its over.

 

My honest prediction based on everything I've seen from Bioware, 1 (2 max) year until free to play. This being pushed by the exodus to come, EAs lack of sensibility and perhaps most important GW2 --> Titan.

 

Next EA MMO, I'm not sure what it could be... but it'll have failure written all over it already today... until they learn that you cannot polish a turd and sell it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Xcore

[lokivoid]

 

 

 

P.S.: It is not Latency or FPS Lag... also very important to understand.

 

Its related to latency, one latency is not limited to ping, you can have 30 ping and still have high latency via packetloss.

 

 

 

It's cause by two issues,

One the ability queue mechanic (disable it)

The other cheap (as designed to be cheap on server overhead) netcoding. Most of aspects of the game are client side with no server side checks, This results in alot of odd game preformance (it also makes the game vary vulnerable to memory editing)

Edited January 15, 2012 by lokivoid

[Xcore]

Its related to latency, one latency is not limited to ping, you can have 30 ping and still have high latency via packetloss.

 

 

 

It's cause by two issues,

One the ability queue mechanic (disable it)

The other cheap (as designed to be cheap on server overhead) netcoding. Most of aspects of the game are client side with no server side checks, This results in alot of odd game preformance (it also makes the game vary vulnerable to memory editing)

No... go read up on the issue you're commenting on... this has been discussed almost two weeks ago.

 

Yes, this is ONE of a slew of contributing factors... it has already been established...

[Spetsnazos]

I have no faith in them actually fixing this. They say they are working on it but I have a feeling the changes they make are going to be very minor and they'll put it in the patch notes that they improved responsiveness and are continuing to work harder to make it better.

 

While nice, most players wont notice anything.

[Rendekar]

Pretty much, add to that the feeling of the people in charge of this potential "dream-come-true" being completely indifferent and out of touch with what a "Gamer" wants and you get pretty much "me"...

 

I should note that its in Bioware's and "any" developers best interest to seriously address this issue of "why" do people go back to WoW? Because if you can solve that riddle you'll have yourself a goldmine as WoW is (even to those who play it) dreadful.... everyone is looking for a way out.

 

And it is my firm belief that WoW's success and continued success in the face of ALL competition is simply "Gamplay and Responsiveness", this connection between YOU and VIRTUAL YOU. No other game does it like WoW, you can have all the features and more than WoW, but if you cannot match the "feeling" of connection and control... its all for nothing.

 

Thus this frustration, all this potential, all this "story" and additions ALL for nothing... because of 0.5 seconds...

 

 

ZERO POINT FIVE SECONDS (<-- Metaphor for this feeling of disconnect) eliminate "years" of work by "hundreds" of people, instantly. Every new and cool feature made completely meaningless by the lack of attention to detail in the gameplay department.

 

(Its just about the only "true" instant in SW:TOR)

 

 

 

P.S.: You wanna know the funniest part about all of this? Once the exodus happens, nothing else matters. Even if its all fixed (AND) made better... "nobody" is coming back because an MMO is a continuous time investment, once trust in the product is lost, its over.

 

My honest prediction based on everything I've seen from Bioware, 1 (2 max) year until free to play. This being pushed by the exodus to come, EAs lack of sensibility and perhaps most important GW2 --> Titan.

 

Next EA MMO, I'm not sure what it could be... but it'll have failure written all over it already today... until they learn that you cannot polish a turd and sell it.

 

 

I guess it is now safe to assume that no developer other than Blizzard fully understands how to make good mmos. First, you get the gameplay and combat right. Then, you give your game an identity with lore, quests and all these voice over stuff. Bioware has chosen the opposite path which will probably be the number one reason behind the future failure of Swtor. Hate to say it but they should have learned from Blizzard seriously. Those guys now say that their next mmo - Titan - is internally playable but they have nothing to show because it is just a shell. This is how you develop games. First, the gameplay then all other stuff.

[ChewieFlakes]

Once my sub runs out I wont be playing again until they fix it, and even until then I won't be doing any PvP, just leveling my character a bit... And if they never fix it, then i'll never sub back, plain and simple. Which would really be a shame because I need an mmo to tide me over until GW2 comes out.

[Taurusaud]

Pretty much, add to that the feeling of the people in charge of this potential "dream-come-true" being completely indifferent and out of touch with what a "Gamer" wants and you get pretty much "me"...

 

I should note that its in Bioware's and "any" developers best interest to seriously address this issue of "why" do people go back to WoW? Because if you can solve that riddle you'll have yourself a goldmine as WoW is (even to those who play it) dreadful.... everyone is looking for a way out.

 

And it is my firm belief that WoW's success and continued success in the face of ALL competition is simply "Gamplay and Responsiveness", this connection between YOU and VIRTUAL YOU. No other game does it like WoW, you can have all the features and more than WoW, but if you cannot match the "feeling" of connection and control... its all for nothing.

 

Thus this frustration, all this potential, all this "story" and additions ALL for nothing... because of 0.5 seconds...

 

 

ZERO POINT FIVE SECONDS (<-- Metaphor for this feeling of disconnect) eliminate "years" of work by "hundreds" of people, instantly. Every new and cool feature made completely meaningless by the lack of attention to detail in the gameplay department.

 

(Its just about the only "true" instant in SW:TOR)

 

 

 

P.S.: You wanna know the funniest part about all of this? Once the exodus happens, nothing else matters. Even if its all fixed (AND) made better... "nobody" is coming back because an MMO is a continuous time investment, once trust in the product is lost, its over.

 

My honest prediction based on everything I've seen from Bioware, 1 (2 max) year until free to play. This being pushed by the exodus to come, EAs lack of sensibility and perhaps most important GW2 --> Titan.

 

Next EA MMO, I'm not sure what it could be... but it'll have failure written all over it already today... until they learn that you cannot polish a turd and sell it.

 

I completely agree with your (and the other guys' you were quoting) sentiment, I think it will probably be ftp within a year... have you seen any videos on youtube for Guild Wars 2? That game looks so innovative and it's free to play... how is this game gonna compete with that?? Apparently it's already confirmed too that GW2 doesn't have this UI ability lag...

 

Really it's just so inexcusable this game was rushed and released in such a condition.. This bug was discussed during beta too so if Bioware was able to fix it they probably would have by now (it would have been in their best interest to anyway)... even beyond the sunk cost of buying the game, it sucks to see potential not realized...

Edited January 15, 2012 by Taurusaud

[Xcore]

I guess it is now safe to assume that no developer other than Blizzard fully understands how to make good mmos. First, you get the gameplay and combat right. Then, you give your game an identity with lore, quests and all these voice over stuff. Bioware has chosen the opposite path which will probably be the number one reason behind the future failure of Swtor. Hate to say it but they should have learned from Blizzard seriously. Those guys now say that their next mmo - Titan - is internally playable but they have nothing to show because it is just a shell. This is how you develop games. First, the gameplay then all other stuff.

 

The awesome thing is that even after Blizzard's complete terrible direction (imo) with WoW to the point that I cannot stand playing WoW... at all. I STILL believe that "whatever" they come up with for their new MMO will be "awesome" and successful.

 

On the other hand, While I absolutely "LOVE" ALL Bioware games (until SW:TOR), I already know with 100% certainty that "no matter" what IP, how much money, how much development time they throw at their "new MMO" (if they made one) that it will be **** compared to whatever Blizzard makes.

 

Isn't that hillarious, I love Bioware games, hate what Blizz has done to WoW... yet I still believe in Blizzard more than Bioware...

 

 

So anyways yea, every new developer attempting to get a stable cashcow (like WoW) is doing it wrong. In order for a AAA successful MMO (millions of subs) you don't need LFG Support, You don't need more than 1 battleground, You don't need more than 5 total instances and you don't even need 1 raid at endgame.

 

Can you believe that? Its true....

 

All you need, is an amazing, stable and incredible responsive, immersive, smooth like silk combat system. Features have nothing to do with long term success, only short term. As proven by Warhammer Online, Rift and incoming SW:TOR (now 2-3 mill subs, 6 months later... less than a mill/or around a mill).

 

Publishers and Developers are so out of touch with the actual MMO Community. You know, likely over 70% of WoW Players would jump ship at the first sight of a decent new MMO... trick is just keeping them... and its not by features.

 

Then within your first 2 years, you do the above features one by one, over time nice and polished.