Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[JDSH]

Why don't we just re-name this game. WOW2? then you can bring every type of ADD ON. NO. I say no to recount. Why? because we don't NEED it. People are clearing content just fine. I have never heard a person tell me. "Content too hard need recount" the day they bring recount.

 

Is the day I and all my 100 guildmates formally quit the game for good. Recount shown proof in warcraft is a weakness. It's a tool to yell and abuse other player's. It has no place in a nice community. We do not NEED it. A thousand times over. So go soak your tears.

 

No you don't need it, where does this "We" thing come in. Do you speak for all of us? I think people are missing the fact that it should be an option to the user.

 

If I users choose to to his best and compare what he did last rotation to this rotation, spell usage etc...

 

If a progression raiding guild wants to ensure everyone is bringing 110% and preforming with a reasonable level.

 

If you want to know, does this Surge provide more sustained damage then this Surge.

 

Who the **** cares what you think we need. I know what I want and that's a way to measure my abilities and damage done so I know what to prioritize.

[Armethious]

Once it is implemented, everything focuses on the meter and little else. We had hunters and rogues that could interrupt but did not do so because they did not want to fall down on that meter. We had people stand in the fire far too long because they wanted to get that last cast off before interrupting their rotation. DPS came with gear. It was the least of our problems.

 

I keep seeing this argument and it makes no sense to me at all. Maybe there is a disconnect when people say DPS meter. What they really mean is raid analyzer. Recount in WoW would let you would know who was interrupting, who was standing in fire, who was healing, who was dpsing, who was CCing, who was disspelling, and much much more. I don't care how high on the DPS list someone was, if it was there job to interrupt and they did not, that is an error on their part. If they continue to fail at their job, I would replace them.

 

Without recount, how in the world would I know if someone was standing in fire, not interrupting, etc etc. Sure, you may be able to catch a few visually, but without a combat log and a way to analyze it quickly, it is nearly impossible to know for sure make adjustments.

 

In short, they make for lazy fights, change the context of the game from a dynamic event to a singularly focused event centering around one particular aspect. My challenges were always far more about everything except dps. There is so much more to a raid then dps and what dps meters tell you.

 

This just affirms that you have no idea what a DPS meter is if you think it is JUST measuring DPS. As I stated before, it is a raid analyzer. People tend to focus on the DPS portion because they like big numbers, but that is just in fact a very very small portion of what they do.

 

As the Wow developers stated, content was ramped up to accommodate addons, not the other way around. You put in an addon that trivializes content, the content has to be ramped up to a new level. What eventually occured was a full shift in the dynamic of the game. What that did was to alienate the main demographic they sought to maintain by making the game more about min maxing, outside research, addons, macroing, huge learning curves, all of which detracted for actual game play.

 

Not sure what game you have been playing, but I have been playing Wow for the past five years and all they have done is make content more and more accessible to more and more people. The most recent major content patch added yet another difficulty level that was easier then normal so that more people could see the raid zone while at the same time allowing people who wanted a challenge to use the normal mode and eventually heroic. This is evidence that shows exactly opposite of your stated premise.

 

SW didn't kill wow. It just gave people the vehicle by which they left a game they were no longer enjoying. Combat addons were a very large reason for this.

 

Again, this is showing your ignorance. Addons existed well before WoW hit its peak of 12 million subscribers so how again could they have caused its downfall?

[Lockjr]

DPS measuring is easy to do. You can look at someones gear and put a pretty good guess at what DPS or healing output they can do. You will never see a group leader in a PUG trying to help some Newbie with his DPS just because he has a meter to tell him the Newbie isn't geting every drop out he can. We all know it starts with a meter then everyone will figure out the cookie cutter DPS tree for abilities and if you don't use that tree your not in. So now it it is gear and ability tree then it will be skill rotation. Pretty soon the meter said you were not doing all you could do what was your rotation on that last fight. Sorry wrong rotation your out. Again all these are from those that you can choose to ignore they are the elitist 1% but I have also played the MMO without a meter and said hey my gear sucks gonna be hard in here. Gone in played well had nobody looking over my shoulder and did ok because I didn't have someone else telling me how to play. I just think once you start to see meters and other adjuncts added to a game you start to have a way for others to think they should play your toon for you. It's hard enough for some leaders to think other people in a group can play an MMO even without them.

[Setanian]

Who the **** cares what you think we need. I know what I want and that's a way to measure my abilities and damage done so I know what to prioritize.

 

That can also be extrapolated to infer;

 

Who the **** cares what you think?

 

I find it perplexing that you can ask who cares what he thinks yet force your opinion on us..

[Setanian]

Maybe there is a disconnect when people say DPS meter. What they really mean is raid analyzer. Recount in WoW would let you would know who was interrupting, who was standing in fire, who was healing, who was dpsing, who was CCing, who was disspelling, and much much more.

 

So basically it did everything, all you needed was a few players to do everything it told them to?

 

Sounds like care bear raiding to me.

[Krazeh]

So basically it did everything, all you needed was a few players to do everything it told them to?

 

Sounds like care bear raiding to me.

 

That's not what he said at all. He said it allowed you to analyse who had done what during the fight, there was nothing about beign told to do anything.

[Setanian]

That's not what he said at all. He said it allowed you to analyse who had done what during the fight, there was nothing about beign told to do anything.

 

If it did all that and everyone was using it, and one assumes this is not a raid leader only tool, then it's basically tell you what to do.

 

Or, maybe I'm mistaken and it only tells you all this information after the event ?

 

I never used these tools.

[trublmaker]

The Problem

 

I have a deeply impressed knee-jerk reaction to Recount, Gearscore, and their related ilk because I feel they represent the edge of the slippery slope toward the mathematization of relationships. A system that provides detailed relative data among participants in content is less useful for evaluating one's own performance, and more useful for judging the performance of others. In a sense, Recount is the standard bearer for heavy-handed guild dictatorships and exclusivism. It is the refuge of the min-maxer and a menace to the targets of his ire.

 

That said, I will gladly concede that there may exist in the community a subset of players who value data for data's sake--those players who take no offense to the heavy beast breathing over their shoulders, and embrace the risk of abuse the same way one embraces Vegas slots, with the outstretched hope that perhaps this time things will be different.

 

 

The Solution

 

For those players I would like to propose the following:

 

Do not allow recount. Allow, instead, absolute, complete data transparency. Upon initiation by any group or raid member (with a cooldown for spam control), the party members may vote anonymously to enable data parsing. If parsing is enabled, all players have access to a complete, unabridged record of the group's/raid's activities. To be more blunt, this is a keylogger, and it reports every action taken by a character in-game, with the exception of recording chat as "[timestamp] Entered chat until [timestamp]." It reports actions, cooldowns, player movement (coordinate by coordinate, including facing and rate of turning), button mashing, interface actions, and millisecond-to-millisecond reports of states, statistics, incoming and outgoing damage, healing, and effects. Moreover, it should report the technical calculations involved in getting from base numbers to final numbers. Thus, you can see how much someone would do in base damage and how much the damage is modified by gear. Additionally, you can see the odds of a given occurrence whenever there's interaction between an effect and an enemy, so you can gauge whether a player is performing poorly by his own fault or just unlucky. You can also see if a player is extremely efficient and just undergeared, or performing poorly but being carried by his or her gear.

 

You want data? You got it. All of it. Everything the server knows about what a player is doing during the raid, the system makes available.

 

 

The Reasoning

 

Why all this information? Why not? You want to data mine; have at it. The data is the key to a successful end-game guild.

 

I advocate for this because Recount just doesn't go far enough. It goes far, by MMO standards, but it's ultimately just organizing data the server already reports. It's a tool for judging player performance. If you're getting into the business of judging others, though, why not be more thorough? Would you be shocked to find out that your raid leader never touches his mouse in a five-minute encounter? What if your tank is just coasting along in gear three tiers higher than the content and is only doing the bare minimum to keep aggro (and you were ************ at the sorc for not ramping his dps!)? Maybe you'll discover that someone missed an interrupt because it was on cooldown from the last interrupt--just like he's been telling you for the last six times you ran that fight. Maybe you'll learn that that whore the GM's been cybering is spending more time talking to people during the raid than she is contributing? Who knows what remarkable secrets you might uncover!

 

It is only then, once you have had the opportunity to examine your colleagues with the most powerful microscope possible and comb through their errors with only the finest instrument, that you can accurately assess whose fault it is that you're not succeeding where you know you should. Only then can you assist them in improving themselves.

 

 

Know that the other members of your guild may fear such a thing, and I trust many of you receive my suggestion with some trepidation at first blush. Once you embrace the power that comes with this knowledge, however, you will find that your guild will succeed and thrive as an organic machine, stripped of the trappings of trust and relationships. This is a computer game, and so it is driven by data, by numbers. The numbers are what matter, and no one has anything to fear who is giving proper dedication to his role in the guild. Often people laugh when someone says poopsock. Those people aren't cut out for end-game content.

 

Your guild members may be angry with you if you suggest that such a thorough, robust system be implemented. Some of them will no doubt become furious at the notion that you or anyone else can prowl through the minutiae of their online behavior during raid time. Remind them that that time is sacrosanct, and it is a sacrifice they must be willing to make to the guild. If they cannot make it, then cast them into darkness. Once they have been cast out and been deprived of life-sustaining end-game epics, they will return, humbled, and submit.

 

Your guild will hate RecountRedux. They will despise it as its claws hook themselves into their petty lives. But it will unite them, unite you as a guild, and make you stronger. You must channel the very reasonable repugnance at the idea that game performance Big Brother is the gateway to success, harness it, and make that repugnance serve you. When your guild begins to squabble, and members fight among themselves over the truth revealed by this system, you have nearly arrived. Direct their fury away from their destroyed relationships and to the unliving, inhuman game content, where it should be. In the end you may find yourself and your guild miserable shells of who you once set out to become, but you will be shells wearing gear with spectacular stats. And that's what matters, isn't it?

 

 

 

TLDR: Recount is the path to the Dark Side. And not the cool storytelling dark side. The guild-imploding, enemy-making one that makes the game antithetical to fun. If you think someone is under-performing, ask. Maybe talk with your raid before and after encounters and find out why things are or aren't working. No one needs a blue ribbon for top DPS or a brown one for worst healer. Build a guild with a raid force composed of people you know and can trust. It might mean that you have to repeat encounters a few more times before you get them down. But you won't end up hating your guild afterwards. That's all.

 

Best post on this board... Interesting none of the recount advocates have addressed it.

 

Truth hurts doesn't it?

[Krazeh]

If it did all that and everyone was using it, and one assumes this is not a raid leader only tool, then it's basically tell you what to do.

 

Or, maybe I'm mistaken and it only tells you all this information after the event ?

 

I never used these tools.

 

So you're complaining about tools like recount but have never used them?

[Setanian]

So you're complaining about tools like recount but have never used them?

 

indeed.

[ferroz]

That can also be extrapolated to infer;

 

Who the **** cares what you think?

 

I find it perplexing that you can ask who cares what he thinks yet force your opinion on us..

He isn't forcing anything on you.

 

If he gets his way, you get to chose whether to use it

You you get your way, he does not get to chose whether to use it.

 

The only forcing that happening is from the anti-meter folks trying to force their playstyle on everyone else. Other than that, there's no forcing of any sort.

[ferroz]

Best post on this board... Interesting none of the recount advocates have addressed it.

What exactly do you expect people to address? I skimmed, but don't see anything that really needs comment other than "it's probably not feasible to capture that much information" Edited January 16, 2012 by ferroz

[Setanian]

He isn't forcing anything on you.

 

If he gets his way, you get to chose whether to use it

You you get your way, he does not get to chose whether to use it.

 

The only forcing that happening is from the anti-meter folks trying to force their playstyle on everyone else. Other than that, there's no forcing of any sort.

 

That's untrue.

 

As soon as a tool like recount is available in SW:ToR, it will be required use by every raiding guild. So anyone choosing not to use it, cannot raid in those guilds. Therefore, it is indeed being forced upon me, if I wish to raid in these guilds.

 

Additionally, These guilds will use this tool to make the raids easier.

Will there be

 

Server First Easy Mode (using tools)

 

and

 

Server First Hardcore

 

?

[TItanten]

That's untrue.

 

As soon as a tool like recount is available in SW:ToR, it will be required use by every raiding guild. So anyone choosing not to use it, cannot raid in those guilds. Therefore, it is indeed being forced upon me, if I wish to raid in these guilds.

 

Additionally, These guilds will use this tool to make the raids easier.

Will there be

 

Server First Easy Mode (using tools)

 

and

 

Server First Hardcore

 

?

 

Yes, YES!

 

I love this idea.

 

Let guilds decide if they want to enable a meter, but by doing so your guild has (Easymode) next to it for eternity!

[Krazeh]

That's untrue.

 

As soon as a tool like recount is available in SW:ToR, it will be required use by every raiding guild. So anyone choosing not to use it, cannot raid in those guilds. Therefore, it is indeed being forced upon me, if I wish to raid in these guilds.

 

Additionally, These guilds will use this tool to make the raids easier.

Will there be

 

Server First Easy Mode (using tools)

 

and

 

Server First Hardcore

 

?

 

Why are you posting stuff like this when you've never used recount? This isn't what recount does or how it works. Even if it was in the game there's zero reason to force anyone to use it. The only people who need to run it are those interested in seeing hte results it provides, noone else needs to go anywhere near it if they so choose.

[X-rapture]

Best post on this board... Interesting none of the recount advocates have addressed it.

 

Truth hurts doesn't it?

 

The "slippery slope" is a time honored logical fallacy. Anybody who has any education on the subject should feel no need to respond to such a fundamentally flawed post.

 

FYI

[Mynden]

That's untrue.

 

As soon as a tool like recount is available in SW:ToR, it will be required use by every raiding guild. So anyone choosing not to use it, cannot raid in those guilds. Therefore, it is indeed being forced upon me, if I wish to raid in these guilds.

 

Additionally, These guilds will use this tool to make the raids easier.

Will there be

 

Server First Easy Mode (using tools)

 

and

 

Server First Hardcore

 

?

 

you're not forced to raid in those guilds, and quite frankly if you want to be allowed to raid in a guild that enforced performance and standards, but don't want to be judged on metrics you shouldnt be raiding with them anyway. you clearly don't have the same mindset.

[ferroz]

That's untrue.

No it's quite true. He's not forcing anything on you.

 

As soon as a tool like recount is available in SW:ToR, it will be required use by every raiding guild.

False; there are lots of raiding guilds that don't require it in wow. There are lots of raiding guilds that don't require it in EQ; parsers have been available in EQ since it's first months.

 

So anyone choosing not to use it, cannot raid in those guilds. Therefore, it is indeed being forced upon me, if I wish to raid in these guilds.

No at that point you're choosing what you want; noone is forcing anything on you. There will be plenty of raid guilds to play with that don't require it, and it's absurd to insist that you actually would want to play with people who would require you to use that meter when you don't want to...

 

I mean, you can say that, but we both know it's a lie, so lets not waste time with it, eh?

 

Additionally, These guilds will use this tool to make the raids easier.

False, the tool does't make the raid easer. It makes the data analysis less tedious.

 

Will there be

 

Server First Easy Mode (using tools)

 

and

 

Server First Hardcore

 

?

No, since the former isn't easy mode, and the latter isn't especially hardcore.

 

There's nothing hard about getting hit in the head with a hammer. It's just unpleasant.

Edited January 16, 2012 by ferroz

[thatoneguy]

I am not for it but I like the idea of making special servers for stuff like this and addons to be used on. If not that make it so things like recount can only see your guildmates info in a party. That way if you want to pug and you want this info then you are screwed. If your guild is a hardcore raiding guild then by all means use it and require your members to use it.

 

For the rest of us that still want to raid and enjoy the pugs no one will require us to have these kinds of things installed. Also you don't have to worry about what the numbers are when you are in a group. You can enjoy playing and doing what the game is designed for, "have fun".

Edited January 16, 2012 by thatoneguy

[TItanten]

There's nothing hard about getting hit in the head with a hammer. It's just unpleasant.

 

Usually the hammer is pretty hard.

[ferroz]

Usually the hammer is pretty hard.

wrong definition of the word (We're talking hard, as in difficult)

[Fissile]

Not a single person is ever required to use recount.

 

It simply collects and parses the battle log and presents the information in useful charts and graphs.

 

You're completely free to not use it (even in WoW). A lot of people don't because its a resource pig.

 

Another addon, DBM (Deadly Boss Mods) is more of a hold your hand sort of thing. It has timers and alerts for timed events, or watches the battle log for casts to interrupt, etc. That one I can rightfully say 'is a crutch', though even that isn't enough for a lot of fights that have strict dps/healing/tanking requirements, plus execution. Even for all it does, it doesn't push any buttons for you, or tell you where to stand. It honks if you're standing in fire, or if there's a cast you can interrupt; it warns you of phase changes, etc., but that's it.

 

Recount is nothing more than real time performance metrics.

 

Grid, healbot, etc. are nothing more than information filters and UI enhancements. They don't push any buttons for you, or magically heal anything. they simply take all the information in, filter out the extraneous stuff, and present everything you need in one spot.

 

None of them play the game for you.

 

For the mis-informed, Blizzard works very hard to ensure that addons in WoW can't play the game for you. They can present information in ways that make the game easier, but all that's doing is forcing the developers to actually make the encounters difficult and engaging, rather than relying on how clunky their UI is at presenting information and accepting responses to that information.

 

No addon in WoW can automatically interrupt spell casts, or heal for you, or whatever. If any addon is found to be game breaking, it is broken through API changes. The last one i remember this happening to was AVR, which painted the 3d world and greatly helped deal with movement centric bosses.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Fissile

[Daisai]

I am now madness specced on my assasin to test it out in pvp.

Now because this game has no dps meter support i cant which is better for pve dps.

 

So i cant see as which i should raid.

 

Dps meters are needed if this game wants to succeed on a pve level.

[TItanten]

wrong definition of the word (We're talking hard, as in difficult)

 

Thanks man. It was very punny.

 

*headdesk*

 

It was a joke.

[trublmaker]

The "slippery slope" is a time honored logical fallacy. Anybody who has any education on the subject should feel no need to respond to such a fundamentally flawed post.

 

FYI

 

The "straw-man" is a time honored logical fallacy. Anybody who has any education on the subject should feel no need to respond to such a fundamentally flawed post.

 

FYI