Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Jesira]

No, what happend to the days when people could play a game without needing everything spelled out in front of them? Pretty sure we handled MMO's just fine before there were recounts and meters to measure every little thing; and we had more fun doing so!

[Buur]

Little Timmy is there to try again because he's having fun. Have big rocks like he does instead of pointing fingers.

 

Ya awesome. Let me bang my head against a well for 3 hours so little Timmy can have his fun. Great plan.

[lokivoid]

 

Recount is not just a "damage meter"... it is a graphical interface which allows you to view group activity in the combat log i.e. Damage Done over the duration of the fight by each player, Friendly Fire, Damage Taken, Healing Done, Absorbs, Healing Taken, Overhealing Done, Deaths, DOT Uptime, HOT Uptime, Player Combat Activity, Dispels, The Dispelled, Interrupts, Ressers, CC Breakers, Resources Gained, etc.

 

I believe these tools play an important role in identifying whether a player is doing well or under-performing. Nevertheless, these graphs should be the starting point – an indicator that you should be looking more closely at the situation. Used wisely, a tool like this could greatly improve guild performance.

 

Some individuals are fearful of an "elitist" backlash caused by the improper use of such a tool. Nevertheless, people have also argued that this tool would actually curb elitist behavior based on FACTS and DATA rather than Gear, Achievements, Spec, Gut Feeling or Favoritism.

 

The inevitability of undesirable behavior isn't something we can escape in a massive online community, so the real question is...

 

Would you rather be castigated based on factual data or would you rather take your chances with the "hunch" of a self seeking jerk?

 

With Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group your DPS sucks.

 

 

Without Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group you are wearing a green helm and your gear isn't good enough for this encounter. (You get kicked, even if you were top DPS)

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EDIT: It would also totally eliminate "recount spam". They could disable all data broadcasts... If everyone has access to the information there would be no need to broadcast the results.

 

EDIT UPDATE:

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During the speed-fire round starting at 13:00 in the video. Georg confirms an out of game COMBAT LOG!

 

People will have access to combat logs please bring a recount version in the game!

 

I think Georg Zoeller understands our pain for not having a combat log at launch, let's hope they "get it right" and quickly.

 

People who don't like Recount.

 

Wile i do support and limited macroing such as LUA API macros and addons including recount. I don't see it happening, only becuse of how the engine operates. The game engine uses flash based language for all the GUI. This would make it a living nightmare to implament a addon system. Its also a nightmare for anyone wanting to write addon for it

 

As i have stated in a number of posts, The only time its going to become viable is if they scrap the entire GUI coding from engine source code and replace it with a lightweight multi-paradigm scripting language (Industry standard is LUA)

 

Why they choose a engine with a flash based interface is beyond me, considering its bloated resource intensive code. Wile its viable for web based applets flash generally causes more problems than its worth. Both on a engineering standpoint but a development cost standpoint.

[TheSkate]

So basically you just want to be sure that no one has any personal accountability. Cool.

 

As apposed to what? Having someone to blame besides yourself, that is what. That is what a raid wide meter is used for. It is a game. Learn to play for FUN or go back to WoW.

[Buur]

As apposed to what? Having someone to blame besides yourself, that is what. That is what a raid wide meter is used for. It is a game. Learn to play for FUN or go back to WoW.

 

I never said that. If I am the one to blame I would certainly like to know. I am not afraid of improving my personal performance. Many people here are horrified of it.

[TItanten]

Mr. Titanten,

 

How do you know who is good?

How do you judge this?

How do you know which DPS is better than the other?

 

If I played with my WoW guild with no meters, I would not be able to tell you who is top DPS and who is last.

 

Haha, you know they didn't have meters in wow for quite a while. Or at least they didn't use them as a crutch as they do now.

 

There's this little thing called the human brain. It's capable of a vast array of ways to process information, and while not infallable, it can be of great value in your quest to achieve information.

 

#1 Knowing who is good:

This is subjective, but simple to figure out. When you play with them on a daily basis are they the ones that have to keep asking how to finish a quest because it's too hard? (Smugglers and Lightspring come to mind) Do they ask stupid questions in chat constantly? When you've ran Flashpoints with them did they do dumb stuff? If all the answers are "No." Then you can put them in the good catagory. PvP /= good.

 

#2 How do you judge good vs Bad?

 

Pretty much the same as above. Dying on quests they shouldn't. Being able to solo heroic 2 quests. Not asking dumb questions (How do I get back to the fleet from Balmorra?) Do they answer questions like "What spec are you" in a logical fashion? Not: "I don't know, I just put stuff where it seemed usefull."

 

#3 Which DPS is better than the other?

 

This is just ego boosting bullcrap. If you have "good" players and the boss dies no one needs to know the dps order. No one should care that I beat you by 200 dps on that one fight because I didn't have to move around or chase adds.

 

Knowing dps does jack for killing a boss, with the exception of a rage timer (which is the eptiome of laziness in game design and should be elminated across the board).

[TheSkate]

It's a video game that you play with other people and often times hope to achieve group based goals. Sorry, but if little Timmy has great gear (because this game makes it very easy to get gear) but is wasting my time because he is god awful at playing his class, I would like tools that let me know.

 

Because you are blind and can't see what is happening in the game? Learn a little bit about the other classes and you can see if "little Timmy" is standing there spamming his basic attack.

[TItanten]

Ya awesome. Let me bang my head against a well for 3 hours so little Timmy can have his fun. Great plan.

 

The point where you stop having fun is the point where you're supposed to quit.

 

It's a game. You're not getting paid to play, quit doing stuff that's not fun.

[TheFluke]

It's a video game that you play with other people and often times hope to achieve group based goals. Sorry, but if little Timmy has great gear (because this game makes it very easy to get gear) but is wasting my time because he is god awful at playing his class, I would like tools that let me know.

 

This entirely, and the "it's just a game brah, don't take it so srsly" is probably the worst argument provided for this subject.

 

I don't have a fantastic, fun-filled adventure getting my balls handed to me on repeated occasions because one of my party members is playing with one hand or distracted by his cats. Or better yet, an idiot.

 

I want to know who's doing what in my group. I can speculate and be somewhat spot-on about their performance, but the numbers provide me with evidence to address the issue.

 

For example "hey, Obi-Wut, you're doing 2% of the group's DPS, and you're DPS. Step it up or leave, you're ruining it for the other 3 of us, even though your tangents about President Obama are really making up for it."

 

And besides, the "just a game" crap is just that, crap. You take your hobbies seriously whether you admit it or not. If you were trying to enjoy a movie and someone kept talking, it could ruin the experience. "It's just a movie, brah" would only piss you off more. If you're super stoked about collecting coins, and someone started putting 2012 pennies in your collection with no significance or value, you'd be furious.

 

Anything we apply our time to is considered valuable, and we really don't like other people messing that up for us.

 

Period.

[Happylol]

As apposed to what? Having someone to blame besides yourself, that is what. That is what a raid wide meter is used for. It is a game. Learn to play for FUN or go back to WoW.

 

TheSkate,

 

Would you have fun wiping on a boss for 3 months straight, with no new content for 3 months, and with no way of knowing what is keeping you back?

 

A lot of us have fun wiping and raiding, but when you have no way of knowing what is holding you back, it becomes quite frustrating and eventually not fun at all.

 

If SWTOR raiding was designed on having fun I could understand, but the fact of the matter is the enrage timers on Nightmare modes are so tight that DPS is the #1 issue.

[ferroz]

I swear, it's like people who need dps meters don't actually have a guild or friends in the game and just sit and pug complete and total strangers for bleeding edge content.

I have a guild. And friends. But I also like pugging.

 

I understand that you're terrified of pugs, but my pugging shouldn't suffer just because you're afraid of it.

[TItanten]

I have a guild. And friends. But I also like pugging.

 

I understand that you're terrified of pugs, but my pugging shouldn't suffer just because you're afraid of it.

 

I'm not afraid of pugging, but when I pug I have zero expectations of getting anything done because most of the players came from WoW and probably couldn't beat the first level in super mario brothers.

[Happylol]

Haha, you know they didn't have meters in wow for quite a while. Or at least they didn't use them as a crutch as they do now.

 

There's this little thing called the human brain. It's capable of a vast array of ways to process information, and while not infallable, it can be of great value in your quest to achieve information.

 

#1 Knowing who is good:

This is subjective, but simple to figure out. When you play with them on a daily basis are they the ones that have to keep asking how to finish a quest because it's too hard? (Smugglers and Lightspring come to mind) Do they ask stupid questions in chat constantly? When you've ran Flashpoints with them did they do dumb stuff? If all the answers are "No." Then you can put them in the good catagory. PvP /= good.

 

#2 How do you judge good vs Bad?

 

Pretty much the same as above. Dying on quests they shouldn't. Being able to solo heroic 2 quests. Not asking dumb questions (How do I get back to the fleet from Balmorra?) Do they answer questions like "What spec are you" in a logical fashion? Not: "I don't know, I just put stuff where it seemed usefull."

 

#3 Which DPS is better than the other?

 

This is just ego boosting bullcrap. If you have "good" players and the boss dies no one needs to know the dps order. No one should care that I beat you by 200 dps on that one fight because I didn't have to move around or chase adds.

 

Knowing dps does jack for killing a boss, with the exception of a rage timer (which is the eptiome of laziness in game design and should be elminated across the board).

 

Mr. Titanten,

 

Have you killed any bosses currently on Nightmare modes?

 

By the way, I agree with your point on DPS does not matter if you kill the boss.

 

If player A is pulling 3k DPS, and player B is pulling 1k, and you end up killing the boss great!

 

The problem lies when you don't kill the boss.

 

Also,

 

I have been playing with some of these peolpe for 4 years in a top 100 world/top10US guild. I doubt any of them have troubles and say things like, "omg I keep dying to this quest".

 

I am not sure why you think I am playing with incompetent players, but I can assure you I am not.

[TheSkate]

TheSkate,

 

Would you have fun wiping on a boss for 3 months straight, with no new content for 3 months, and with no way of knowing what is keeping you back?

 

A lot of us have fun wiping and raiding, but when you have no way of knowing what is holding you back, it becomes quite frustrating and eventually not fun at all.

 

If SWTOR raiding was designed on having fun I could understand, but the fact of the matter is the enrage timers on Nightmare modes are so tight that DPS is the #1 issue.

 

HOLY ****! Who cares if your group can't finish Nightmare mode after the game has only been out for less than one month? You and the .001% of other players wiping on NM that is who. If it is an issue after 3 months then yes there is a problem some where, but a DPS meter isn't going to fix it.

[TItanten]

Mr. Titanten,

I am not sure why you think I am playing with incompetent players, but I can assure you I am not.

 

I'm not referring to you specifically, but to the general "we need dps meters NAO crowd."

 

I'm not even against a personal (non sharable) dps meter because it would help me on a rotation.

 

But people here seem to be making the argument that there is some inability to play the game and beat content without a dps meter which is patently false. They're just not good enough to do it.

[Truga]

If it is an issue after 3 months then yes there is a problem some where, but a DPS meter isn't going to fix it.

 

Indeed.

[Happylol]

I'm not referring to you specifically, but to the general "we need dps meters NAO crowd."

 

I'm not even against a personal (non sharable) dps meter because it would help me on a rotation.

 

But people here seem to be making the argument that there is some inability to play the game and beat content without a dps meter which is patently false. They're just not good enough to do it.

 

There are definitely people that think you can not beat a boss without a DPS meter.

 

There are also people that can beat the boss without a DPS meter.

 

There are finally people that can't beat a boss without a DPS meter, because they don't know who is holding them back.(this is my issue)

 

I am having trouble beating NM bosses because I have no way to judge who is holding us back. If you know a way I can fix this please let me know.

[Baromega]

The simple fact of the matter is, any game with strict enrage timers (in the sense that once you hit that enrage the boss fight doesn't just get difficult, it gets damn-near impossible) absolutely needs some sort of a damage meter. Not even for jerks in PuGs; organized guilds NEED to know who isn't pulling their weight.

[Buur]

Because you are blind and can't see what is happening in the game? Learn a little bit about the other classes and you can see if "little Timmy" is standing there spamming his basic attack.

 

Yes, I am supposed to watch what every one else doing during a raid encounter. Considering I have no idea which player is being 'little Timmy' that means I have to watch up to 15 other people to try and gauge who is doing what, all the while performing my own role. Again, great plan.

[Happylol]

HOLY ****! Who cares if your group can't finish Nightmare mode after the game has only been out for less than one month? You and the .001% of other players wiping on NM that is who. If it is an issue after 3 months then yes there is a problem some where, but a DPS meter isn't going to fix it.

 

TheSkate,

 

I care first of all.

 

Second, what is 3 months going to change?

 

Third, how would you recommend fixing a problem that you can't put a finger on. Our DPS is behind? Yes. Why? No *********** clue.

 

Maybe we should just randomly rotate people out one by one until we eventually come up with a group capable of killing the boss? Sounds like a GREAT idea.

[xHueyx]

I fully support it.

 

As a DPS your sole job is to DPS. If damage meters of some kind do not exist, how are we able to judge whether or not a DPSer is doing their job well?

 

I cannot fathom why someone would be opposed to meters in a game like this, unless they themselves are not very good at the role they are in, in which case, the only way for them to know they are not good at their role is to see the hard numbers, and strive to improve them.

[Oneiros_IV]

Yes I support the feature in form of ingame thingie or addon when it becomes technically possible. Simply due to the need of increasing own character's effectiveness

[hulduet]

Recount is a mod. WoW does not have a built in damage meter. Barely any mmo does. The damage meters you see in some games, especially WoW, is made as an addon by other people.

 

When you're asking for recount or whatever, that is not what you should be asking for. You should be asking for modding support to the game so *people* can make mods/addons. Of course they would need a combat log for anything to even work...

[Ancientwolfgr]

 

I have been playing with some of these people for 4 years in a top 100 world/top10US guild.

 

 

I lol'd.

 

How do they know they are in the top? Top of what exactly? People compare these things? With what, air rulers? Peen-o-meters?

 

Do any have dates on Friday, or any other day for that matter? What would Charlie Sheen say?

[TItanten]

I am having trouble beating NM bosses because I have no way to judge who is holding us back. If you know a way I can fix this please let me know.

 

Willing to do anything?

 

If you're 100% sure it's a dps issue (No one dead, but die to enrage timer):

 

On a per-AC basis; use a stopwatch and time kills on single strong mobs. Use at least 50 trials on the same strong mobs (chose those without stuns). Divide mob health by time in seconds to get DPS.

 

Compare these stats.

 

 

The only difference between an ingame meter and having one for you would be doing the math yourself.

 

 

 

Also, if no one is dying try dropping a healer into DPS.