Zaskaszh Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 No. Why? Because I didn't play World of Warcraft due to the (mostly) idiotic group of people which comprised its playerbase. Anything that gives them reason to migrate to SWTOR is a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAgeOrgins Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 The Problem I have a deeply impressed knee-jerk reaction to Recount, Gearscore, and their related ilk because I feel they represent the edge of the slippery slope toward the mathematization of relationships. A system that provides detailed relative data among participants in content is less useful for evaluating one's own performance, and more useful for judging the performance of others. In a sense, Recount is the standard bearer for heavy-handed guild dictatorships and exclusivism. It is the refuge of the min-maxer and a menace to the targets of his ire. That said, I will gladly concede that there may exist in the community a subset of players who value data for data's sake--those players who take no offense to the heavy beast breathing over their shoulders, and embrace the risk of abuse the same way one embraces Vegas slots, with the outstretched hope that perhaps this time things will be different. The Solution For those players I would like to propose the following: Do not allow recount. Allow, instead, absolute, complete data transparency. Upon initiation by any group or raid member (with a cooldown for spam control), the party members may vote anonymously to enable data parsing. If parsing is enabled, all players have access to a complete, unabridged record of the group's/raid's activities. To be more blunt, this is a keylogger, and it reports every action taken by a character in-game, with the exception of recording chat as "[timestamp] Entered chat until [timestamp]." It reports actions, cooldowns, player movement (coordinate by coordinate, including facing and rate of turning), button mashing, interface actions, and millisecond-to-millisecond reports of states, statistics, incoming and outgoing damage, healing, and effects. Moreover, it should report the technical calculations involved in getting from base numbers to final numbers. Thus, you can see how much someone would do in base damage and how much the damage is modified by gear. Additionally, you can see the odds of a given occurrence whenever there's interaction between an effect and an enemy, so you can gauge whether a player is performing poorly by his own fault or just unlucky. You can also see if a player is extremely efficient and just undergeared, or performing poorly but being carried by his or her gear. You want data? You got it. All of it. Everything the server knows about what a player is doing during the raid, the system makes available. The Reasoning Why all this information? Why not? You want to data mine; have at it. The data is the key to a successful end-game guild. I advocate for this because Recount just doesn't go far enough. It goes far, by MMO standards, but it's ultimately just organizing data the server already reports. It's a tool for judging player performance. If you're getting into the business of judging others, though, why not be more thorough? Would you be shocked to find out that your raid leader never touches his mouse in a five-minute encounter? What if your tank is just coasting along in gear three tiers higher than the content and is only doing the bare minimum to keep aggro (and you were ************ at the sorc for not ramping his dps!)? Maybe you'll discover that someone missed an interrupt because it was on cooldown from the last interrupt--just like he's been telling you for the last six times you ran that fight. Maybe you'll learn that that whore the GM's been cybering is spending more time talking to people during the raid than she is contributing? Who knows what remarkable secrets you might uncover! It is only then, once you have had the opportunity to examine your colleagues with the most powerful microscope possible and comb through their errors with only the finest instrument, that you can accurately assess whose fault it is that you're not succeeding where you know you should. Only then can you assist them in improving themselves. Know that the other members of your guild may fear such a thing, and I trust many of you receive my suggestion with some trepidation at first blush. Once you embrace the power that comes with this knowledge, however, you will find that your guild will succeed and thrive as an organic machine, stripped of the trappings of trust and relationships. This is a computer game, and so it is driven by data, by numbers. The numbers are what matter, and no one has anything to fear who is giving proper dedication to his role in the guild. Often people laugh when someone says poopsock. Those people aren't cut out for end-game content. Your guild members may be angry with you if you suggest that such a thorough, robust system be implemented. Some of them will no doubt become furious at the notion that you or anyone else can prowl through the minutiae of their online behavior during raid time. Remind them that that time is sacrosanct, and it is a sacrifice they must be willing to make to the guild. If they cannot make it, then cast them into darkness. Once they have been cast out and been deprived of life-sustaining end-game epics, they will return, humbled, and submit. Your guild will hate RecountRedux. They will despise it as its claws hook themselves into their petty lives. But it will unite them, unite you as a guild, and make you stronger. You must channel the very reasonable repugnance at the idea that game performance Big Brother is the gateway to success, harness it, and make that repugnance serve you. When your guild begins to squabble, and members fight among themselves over the truth revealed by this system, you have nearly arrived. Direct their fury away from their destroyed relationships and to the unliving, inhuman game content, where it should be. In the end you may find yourself and your guild miserable shells of who you once set out to become, but you will be shells wearing gear with spectacular stats. And that's what matters, isn't it? TLDR: Recount is the path to the Dark Side. And not the cool storytelling dark side. The guild-imploding, enemy-making one that makes the game antithetical to fun. If you think someone is under-performing, ask. Maybe talk with your raid before and after encounters and find out why things are or aren't working. No one needs a blue ribbon for top DPS or a brown one for worst healer. Build a guild with a raid force composed of people you know and can trust. It might mean that you have to repeat encounters a few more times before you get them down. But you won't end up hating your guild afterwards. That's all. I support this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFluke Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Sure. I like to know who sucks in the group, even if it's me (so I can improve). But I totally respect people's desire to leave it out as well. I can honestly take it or leave it, but if I'm trying to accomplish something in a game and I'm required to group in order to do it, those people damn sure better be operating at optimal efficiency. Yeah I know, I'm a horrible person or whatever. But that's just how I like to play - to win. Edited January 16, 2012 by TheFluke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 and how do you measure apples to oranges? player a does 1k dps tops meters does nothing else player b does 750 dps but took the least amount of damge saving healers a headache player c does 500 dps but interupted, or cc'd the entire fight? who needs to be kicked? No one needs to be kicked. If the boss dies, the group has succeeded. End of story. Say "Good job all", roll on the loot, and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrelin Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 At first I didn't like the idea but after grouping with people and seeing just how NEW people are to this game it's pretty much needed. What's worse the new people often don't want to hear how attacking CC'd mobs is bad or how if the Operative would just get out of cover for one backstab... Recount could atleast show them what they're doing is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TItanten Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 As a point, recount is the furthest from my mind for better raid management. I'd like macros, and APIs for layout customization, and screen management, warnings, indicators, timers, etc. All of these, which are fairly important to the raiders at some level, are not in yet, and I would give priory over. Haha, if you need warnings, indicators, and timers to beat a boss your group is just plain bad. Bad as in horrible, no good, lazy, and idiotic. Bad as in couldn't beat the 1st stage in Super Mario Bros bad. Why do you want that stuff? If your answer is anything but "to make it easier" then you're lying. I'm sorry guys, but I don't really need to set a game to "easy" to beat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 @Xhieron You make a very good point. As a leader myself, I'd certainly like that kind total control and power over my groups. Would make my life so much easier. As a human being though, I don't think I can force such things onto anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buur Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 No one needs to be kicked. If the boss dies, the group has succeeded. End of story. Say "Good job all", roll on the loot, and move on. And what if the boss doesn't die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And what if the boss doesn't die? You lost. Be glad the game allows you another try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And what if the boss doesn't die? No "Phat lewt for Joo!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buur Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You lost. Be glad the game allows you another try. Not exactly the point and I wasn't talking to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TItanten Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And what if the boss doesn't die? Then, obviously, we need to unlock the tools to make the boss easier! Addons to tell us where to stand! Addons to tell us we have 30 seconds before we need to interrupt! Addons to warn us that we're getting close to a burn phase! Addons to tell us the correct rotation for our spec! Look: If you die and the boss doesn't there are a few things that could go wrong: 1. You're undergeared. It happens, go do something else for a week, get gear and then come back. 2. People died. It happens. People get stuck in the fire due to lag, the boss cleaves someone, the tank forgot to hit a cooldown, or a healer DCed. 3. If you had everyone alive the whole fight and the boss enraged before you wiped, your dps is undergeared. 3a. If you had everyone alive the whole fight and the boss enraged, but you're in the best gear available you STILL DON'T NEED A DPS METER. If you're smart enough to get the best gear without a meter, you'll be smart enough to kill the boss eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buur Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Then, obviously, we need to unlock the tools to make the boss easier! Addons to tell us where to stand! Addons to tell us we have 30 seconds before we need to interrupt! Addons to warn us that we're getting close to a burn phase! Addons to tell us the correct rotation for our spec! Look: If you die and the boss doesn't there are a few things that could go wrong: 1. You're undergeared. It happens, go do something else for a week, get gear and then come back. 2. People died. It happens. People get stuck in the fire due to lag, the boss cleaves someone, the tank forgot to hit a cooldown, or a healer DCed. 3. If you had everyone alive the whole fight and the boss enraged before you wiped, your dps is undergeared. 3a. If you had everyone alive the whole fight and the boss enraged, but you're in the best gear available you STILL DON'T NEED A DPS METER. If you're smart enough to get the best gear without a meter, you'll be smart enough to kill the boss eventually. So basically you just want to be sure that no one has any personal accountability. Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TItanten Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 So basically you just want to be sure that no one has any personal accountability. Cool. It's a *********** video game. God, I hope you hold your elected representatives to such a high standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buur Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It's a *********** video game. God, I hope you hold your elected representatives to such a high standard. It's a video game that you play with other people and often times hope to achieve group based goals. Sorry, but if little Timmy has great gear (because this game makes it very easy to get gear) but is wasting my time because he is god awful at playing his class, I would like tools that let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylol Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Then, obviously, we need to unlock the tools to make the boss easier! Addons to tell us where to stand! Addons to tell us we have 30 seconds before we need to interrupt! Addons to warn us that we're getting close to a burn phase! Addons to tell us the correct rotation for our spec! Look: If you die and the boss doesn't there are a few things that could go wrong: 1. You're undergeared. It happens, go do something else for a week, get gear and then come back. 2. People died. It happens. People get stuck in the fire due to lag, the boss cleaves someone, the tank forgot to hit a cooldown, or a healer DCed. 3. If you had everyone alive the whole fight and the boss enraged before you wiped, your dps is undergeared. 3a. If you had everyone alive the whole fight and the boss enraged, but you're in the best gear available you STILL DON'T NEED A DPS METER. If you're smart enough to get the best gear without a meter, you'll be smart enough to kill the boss eventually. Mr. Titanten, #3a- what happens if the boss does not eventually die? Could it be that somebody in this group sucks compared to the rest? How does one go about solving the mystery of who is holding us back without a meter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMedeme Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Meters don't make insulting comments, jerks do. Meters help me step up my game. Meters help us measure our groups chances against enrage timers. Meters help us see who's forgetting to interrupt / dispell. Meters help us recruit for our guild, who "gets it" and who doesn't. Meters are a tool, they give a metric. They are not gearscore. I want a log and meter please. You're one in a million. I don't want to suffer stupidity from 999,999 idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TItanten Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It's a video game that you play with other people and often times hope to achieve group based goals. Sorry, but if little Timmy has great gear (because this game makes it very easy to get gear) but is wasting my time because he is god awful at playing his class, I would like tools that let me know. If you didn't meet Timmy by trolling in a Courscant back alley by offering a fiver to fill out your operation to kill one of the great evils of the galaxy, you would know this in about 20 minutes. I swear, it's like people who need dps meters don't actually have a guild or friends in the game and just sit and pug complete and total strangers for bleeding edge content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varghjerta Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Sadly to say before when people played a game they paid for they did want to make the want to make the most of it ...................... Now sorry alot of people seeks a facebook app and play MMo's like it.after countless of i dont know 1% of my class groups in WoW i do actually now support performance meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TItanten Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Mr. Titanten, #3a- what happens if the boss does not eventually die? Could it be that somebody in this group sucks compared to the rest? How does one go about solving the mystery of who is holding us back without a meter? Because I actually do stuff with my guild besides cutting edge content, I know them well enough to know who can't play their class very well. It's not a mystery who the bad players are in a guild group. It never has been. Your scenario only happens in a pick up group setting of strangers. QUIT PUGGING FOR HARD CONTENT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itose Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 No, it encourages elitism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancientwolfgr Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And what if the boss doesn't die? Little Timmy is there to try again because he's having fun. Have big rocks like he does instead of pointing fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylol Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Because I actually do stuff with my guild besides cutting edge content, I know them well enough to know who can't play their class very well. It's not a mystery who the bad players are in a guild group. It never has been. Your scenario only happens in a pick up group setting of strangers. QUIT PUGGING FOR HARD CONTENT. Mr. Titanten, How do you know who is good? How do you judge this? How do you know which DPS is better than the other? If I played with my WoW guild with no meters, I would not be able to tell you who is top DPS and who is last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaluria Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Because I actually do stuff with my guild besides cutting edge content, I know them well enough to know who can't play their class very well. It's not a mystery who the bad players are in a guild group. It never has been. Your scenario only happens in a pick up group setting of strangers. QUIT PUGGING FOR HARD CONTENT. ^^^^this QFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buur Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) If you didn't meet Timmy by trolling in a Courscant back alley by offering a fiver to fill out your operation to kill one of the great evils of the galaxy, you would know this in about 20 minutes. I swear, it's like people who need dps meters don't actually have a guild or friends in the game and just sit and pug complete and total strangers for bleeding edge content. I swear, it's like people who don't want them are so scared to be called out for not doing performing their role properly. Edited January 16, 2012 by Buur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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