Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm never looking for a guaranteed win. And I doubt I'll do much with any addons myself (since I'm a casual and not particularly planning on raiding in tor). I know tons of casual people that raided in WoW. They used combat logs, addons and they were good at the game, maybe better because of addons, which enabled them to kill more bosses in their casual raid schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 being able to filter those out to a different window in EQ was huge. I must login now and see if I can find the EQ1 thread in relation to the 'guilds using external programs was cheating or not' Mind if I ask what server and guild you played in ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I know tons of casual people that raided in WoW. They used combat logs, addons and they were good at the game, maybe better because of addons, which enabled them to kill more bosses in their casual raid schedule. So you are agreeing that combat logs and add-ons enable you to kill more bosses than you normally could? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And I doubt I'll do much with any addons myself (since I'm a casual and not particularly planning on raiding in tor). if you don't raid, then you don't get an opinion on a RAID ADDON required for this game. simple nonrefutable go away. without a damage meter you cannot tell who is actually helping your raid or who is drinking birding the 1 key. that's all there is to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 No, I'm posting a fact. You're making a purely circular argument with no supporting evidence. You're asserting that it's cheating, and then concluding that it's cheating because you've asserted that it's cheating. No you're not posting fact, go back and read *all* the posts and see where I gave examples to support my theory. It looks like you came in on some page and just decided to go off on tangents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyprus Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Flashpoints are not as tight as they are in other MMOs. There is more room for error at this time. If they make the flashpoints harder, then yes, it might be a good idea. But for now, it shouldn't make much of a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 No you're not posting fact, go back and read *all* the posts and see where I gave examples to support my theory.No, I've read them, It's circular logic. You have 0 support for your claim that it's cheating; which is understandable, because it's not cheating. That's why you can't post a single bit of evidence when asked; that's why you keep insulting people instead of giving a rational argument; that's why you're currently tap dancing, trying to distract people from just how illogical and irrational you are acting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 if you don't raid, then you don't get an opinion on a RAID ADDON required for this game. simple nonrefutable Actually if I pay a sub I have as much entitlement to have an opinion on anything to do with the game> Where the F*** do you get off telling me what I can and cannot have an opinion on? go away. Again, where the F*** do you get off telling me to go away. That might work in your schoolyard, but not with me. without a damage meter you cannot tell who is actually helping your raid or who is drinking birding the 1 key. that's all there is to it well with cookie-cutter specs and cookie-cutter builds and cookie-cutter rotations, what do you expect but for everyone in your raid to be doing but 'birding' the keys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 So you are agreeing that combat logs and add-ons enable you to kill more bosses than you normally could? Yes, in terms of efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I must login now and see if I can find the EQ1 thread in relation to the 'guilds using external programs was cheating or not' Mind if I ask what server and guild you played in ? Well hey if you want to take it that far, to the point of asking whether or not using third parties at all is cheating, then you've gone way beyond the practical purpose of the thread. I was under the assumption that trying to figure out whether or not recount should be introduced meant we all agreed that allowing addons was a given. That's really a different question entirely, and it's one that will inevitably boil down to personal preference if you're trying to determine which side of the fence to sit on. Just an fyi though, sales figures show that companies who pay attention to the mods their users create (and then incorporate them) tend to gain a much more voluminous reputation amongst consumers, as it shows they are aware of and care about the things customers are doing with their product. I know I've done this a couple times already, but look at quest helper. Quest helper showed people EXACTLY where to go on the map to finish their quests, no more "go northeast at the hill and take a left at albuquerque to find your quest node (maybe) in half an hour", instead you go from point A to point B and it's wham bam thank ya mam. I don't see anyone complaining that this game took quest helper to a whole new level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 No, I've read them, It's circular logic. You have 0 support for your claim that it's cheating; which is understandable, because it's not cheating. That's why you can't post a single bit of evidence when asked; that's why you keep insulting people instead of giving a rational argument; that's why you're currently tap dancing, trying to distract people from just how illogical and irrational you are acting. It is not cheating but it is a dumbing down of the game. It also impacts overall class balance as people just play fotm dps instead of getting better. Seems to be a theme, people want to shortcut playing the game and it all goes downhill from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 if you don't raid, then you don't get an opinion on a RAID ADDON required for this game. simple nonrefutable go away. without a damage meter you cannot tell who is actually helping your raid or who is drinking birding the 1 key. that's all there is to it You can't tell. People who know what they are doing can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 No, I've read them, It's circular logic. You have 0 support for your claim that it's cheating; which is understandable, because it's not cheating. That's why you can't post a single bit of evidence when asked; that's why you keep insulting people instead of giving a rational argument; that's why you're currently tap dancing, trying to distract people from just how illogical and irrational you are acting. Ok, I'll fall for your bait.. I'm expecting you to refute all of this with cohesive debate. Right now, you have raids on ToR. You do not have enters, therefore you cannot work out what everyone is doing, ergo, it's a toss up if you win or not based on the makeup of your party/group/raid. These people are arguing that they do not know what everyone is doing, so they need meters that will tell them what the other payers are doing. When they know that information, they can kick the players they perceive to be lacking or in the words of the kids the 'bads' Then they will replace those players with players they know who can provide the necessary dps. By so doing, they are stacking the cards in their favour. If they did not have this info they would have to keep trying the encounter, but, with the information they are able to determine the outcome provided the players live up to their dps. Any form of stacking a situation in your favor in a gaming scenario that almost ensures you win, is cheating. Go ahead, debate it with me. If you can provide cohesive argument, I will concede. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 You can't tell. People who know what they are doing can tell. This always makes me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I must login now and see if I can find the EQ1 thread in relation to the 'guilds using external programs was cheating or not' Certainly, it was against the rules at the beginning, so using it was cheating... they later retracted that as I recall; I mean, back then the client would intentionally crash if you alt-tabbed out. But some time in velious or luclin they gave in and officially said that combat parsing apps were ok, and they had stopped banning people for it far earlier than that. It's kind of irrelevant whether that's cheating; an in game addon for recount in swtor (you know, the thread topic) would not be against the rules, so trying to compare the two is like comparing apples to cogwheels. Mind if I ask what server and guild you played in ?Tribunal, Bhur Gcairde. I think my characters wound up on bristlebane after all of the mergers; at least, that's what my Magelo says, though who know's if that's correct. Speaking of, I know it was questionable whether the magelo sync client was legit or against the rules... but since there were GM only items in the database rather early on, and noone was ever banned for it that I know of, I think the consensus is that it was never actually against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I shouldn't have used the phrase "stacking the deck" because that actually does imply cheating on some level. Fail on my part. I should have used 'min-maxing' in relation to the example he posed. If you knew you needed 400 dps from those players for a particular fight, it is counter productive to take someone with 295. Its just a bad decision. From a purely numbers standpoint, logic says get dps that can do 400+. Now, all things being equal, ideally, the 295 player would know he needed 400 dps and wouldn't offer himself as a candidate to be rejected. Where I will agree with the OP is the inevitable rampage of epeen stroking and player ridicule that always comes out of them is an assault on the spirit of why we have and play these games to begin with. After a while, "scrubs" and "bads" gets old while the logic behind it is an insult to the IQ and dealing with adults stuck in perpetual childhood isn't what we signed on for. I am personally against the use of mods although I do not begrudge those who would use them for educational purposes and its just a fact of reality that I will have to co exist with people stuck in their magical narnia fantasy land reality where being successful in online games means something. I have the option not to use them and not to play with people that use them and our little universe here is big enough for both kinds of players to exist so the OP is basically just stringing this along for his own personal amusement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Actually if I pay a sub I have as much entitlement to have an opinion on anything to do with the game> Where the F*** do you get off telling me what I can and cannot have an opinion on? Again, where the F*** do you get off telling me to go away. That might work in your schoolyard, but not with me. well with cookie-cutter specs and cookie-cutter builds and cookie-cutter rotations, what do you expect but for everyone in your raid to be doing but 'birding' the keys. Sure you're entitled to your opinion, just don't expect people to give it much credit with a disclaimer like "I don't even plan on doing the thing that I'm arguing about." Now, I gather from your other comments that you have at least some prior raiding experience, but by the same token it also sounds like you just have some fundamental problems with the way MMO's in general are going. Honestly, you're the angriest person in this thread and I think that's the biggest reason why you're getting these kinds of confrontational responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yes, in terms of efficiency. Using an add-on to make the game for efficient to win fights is cheating. I'm sorry, that one I will not concede. If BW gave you those tools at launch, then it would be deemed part of the game but they didn't. You are only getting them now because of the incessant crying and whining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 ....incessant crying and whining. exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 You can't tell. People who know what they are doing can tell. And people who REALLY know what they're doing can afk without being obvious about it too, wouldn't you love to be able to catch THAT guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Using an add-on to make the game for efficient to win fights is cheating. I'm sorry, that one I will not concede. If BW gave you those tools at launch, then it would be deemed part of the game but they didn't. You are only getting them now because of the incessant crying and whining. Well, so much for paying for a product and thus having a right to an opinion on it that should be listened to, I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ok, I'll fall for your bait.. I'm expecting you to refute all of this with cohesive debate. Right now, you have raids on ToR. You do not have enters, therefore you cannot work out what everyone is doing, ergo, it's a toss up if you win or not based on the makeup of your party/group/raid. These people are arguing that they do not know what everyone is doing, so they need meters that will tell them what the other payers are doing. When they know that information, they can kick the players they perceive to be lacking or in the words of the kids the 'bads' Then they will replace those players with players they know who can provide the necessary dps. By so doing, they are stacking the cards in their favour. If they did not have this info they would have to keep trying the encounter, but, with the information they are able to determine the outcome provided the players live up to their dps. Any form of stacking a situation in your favor in a gaming scenario that almost ensures you win, is cheating. Go ahead, debate it with me. If you can provide cohesive argument, I will concede. But it doesn't ensure winning. Then how come not every guild in WoW has killed every boss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Sure you're entitled to your opinion, just don't expect people to give it much credit with a disclaimer like "I don't even plan on doing the thing that I'm arguing about." Now, I gather from your other comments that you have at least some prior raiding experience, but by the same token it also sounds like you just have some fundamental problems with the way MMO's in general are going. Honestly, you're the angriest person in this thread and I think that's the biggest reason why you're getting these kinds of confrontational responses. A fair response. And I would agree to the angry. And I'll say. For me, and I make no apologies, since wow and all it's add-ons and meters and whatever else, the MMORPG gaming community has become one big nasty group of greedy people out to win as much and as fast as possible. Then they claim they're great because they downed something. When you mention, hey, you used a whole heap of tools to do it tho, I'm the bad guy. The community has gotten worse. It is only since WoW, that someone would tell you to "go away" or call you care bear or all this crap like Lolz L2P and a myriad of other stuff. And, it is my contention that by allowing all these easy mode raids and players, it has fostered a we're better than you type attitudes. The nastiness of these players online in the game is so far beyond where we started out that it has become a cesspit of juvenile arrogance and ignorance. Finally, we get another MMO, SW:ToR and the same people are looking for the same tools to begin yet another cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 well with cookie-cutter specs and cookie-cutter builds and cookie-cutter rotations, what do you expect but for everyone in your raid to be doing but 'birding' the keys. there's a huge difference between birding the 1 key and actually performing an optimum dps rotation. you don't have an argument, you're just being childish and combative ie. trolling. good day sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 But it doesn't ensure winning. Then how come not every guild in WoW has killed every boss? Easy.. Not every guild has the geared up players to kill every boss. Some of the guilds there are like you know, playing casual. I raided for 9 years, it became a job and that's why I stopped, and why I won't raid on ToR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts