Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Not having recount (and combat logs in general) is like trying to diagnose a problem without tools. Recount is a tool, and in the hands of sensible players is very useful. Yes it also works the wrong way. For example the top DPS can become arrogant and shout at the others "pick up your game". But there will always be players like that. Any tool can be misused in the end. The benefits far outweigh the problems. Ok, I can understand that. It's quite simple really. The sensible players have all the figures to ensure they always have the correct players with the correct dps to ensure they always win and never lose. if they don't they whine and cry and stamp their feet til BW give them what they want. Yep, I have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yes, they will be there. But I don't have to play with or even near them. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 When the phrase is being used in a purely idiomatic/figurative way way rather than a literal way. if someone is literally stacking the deck, that's cheating. if someone is figuratively stacking the deck, that's not cheating You're using the phrase in an idiomatic way, and then assuming that it was used in a literal way, to make a circular argument. This is no different, logically, than just asserting that the behavior is cheating with no supporting evidence. I'm very skeptical of this claim.I would have guessed no more than 1/3 of that, probably closer to 1/4 of that, just based on how you post. Um, no, I am being literal. I assure you. If you want to get into an age p*ssing contest I can do that too. Will you be needing add-ons and meters for that too to guarantee you win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugerbabe Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 recount ... NO.. If you cant play a game that doesn´t have it... go play the game that has it. simple right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichikitsune Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Please, tell me when stacking the deck in your favor to guarantee a win is not cheating. I'm 48 years old, I've travelled most of the world, I've fought overseas and I've read lots. I'm pretty worldly if I say so myself, but I have never heard of this. You're being obtuse. Having the information about you and your teammates, fine tuning the strategy for it is still does not guarentee this win you keep implying. There are actual boss mechanics and one fight one person may be great the next they die instantly you are negating the whole, how can I put, human factor. I don't care how worldly you are but the facts are that to some people it is very important to be able to min/max or have every available information they can have when they lead their team in a raid to HELP make it successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Not having recount (and combat logs in general) is like trying to diagnose a problem without tools. Recount is a tool, and in the hands of sensible players is very useful. Yes it also works the wrong way. For example the top DPS can become arrogant and shout at the others "pick up your game". But there will always be players like that. Any tool can be misused in the end. The benefits far outweigh the problems. You are supposed to be killing mobs not diagnosing problems. The game itself provides you with all the feedback you need. No it does not spell if out in a graph, instead you actually have to pay attention to battles and learn from the gameplay. Recount is a tool, a tool that shortcuts actual gameplay, a tool that is wholly unnecessary to do content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Um, no, I am being literal. I assure you.Then you're making a purely circular argument based on a false premise, and asserting that it's cheating with 0 supporting evidence. Using addons is not literally stacking the deck. It might be figuratively stacking the deck, but it's definitely not literally stacking the deck. So, feel free to offer a valid argument if you come up with one (or playing forum chicken with the mods by continuing to add insults if that's what you prefer) If you want to get into an age p*ssing contest I can do that too.You're the one that brought up age... and you're not making much of a case for yourself. If that's your real age, well, then I'd say you should keep it to yourself; a teen would have some sort of excuse for acting like you are... but a real adult, not so much. Will you be needing add-ons and meters for that too to guarantee you win?I'm never looking for a guaranteed win. And I doubt I'll do much with any addons myself (since I'm a casual and not particularly planning on raiding in tor). Are you using circular logic and throwing around insults because you can't actually make any sort of logical case to back up your opinion? Edited January 13, 2012 by ferroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ok, I can understand that. It's quite simple really. The sensible players have all the figures to ensure they always have the correct players with the correct dps to ensure they always win and never lose. if they don't they whine and cry and stamp their feet til BW give them what they want. Yep, I have it. Alright man, now you're just going for cheap shots. First, the situation you describe precludes the possibility that a fight might actually be bugged/harder than the devs intended it to be. In a situation like that, recount is IMMENSELY useful, 'cause if you're still wiping even though everyone's putting up phenomenal numbers then obviously something is wrong and you can stop wasting your time working on it. I admit that's the minority of situations, but there's one perfectly valid use of recount that actually shows that the "crying" you're talking about isn't always "crying". Secondly, who said anything about always winning and never losing? You've obviously never raided on a regular basis with anyone who used dps meters or recount, because getting the right stats DOES NOT equate winning. Human input is still what wins the fights, recount just lets you determine whether or not something is even possible for certain people to handle. What would you do if you went to the gym and there were no numbers on any of the weights to tell you how heavy they actually were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Anyone who thinks that recount will detract from this game's playability is just worried that they may have to TRY at some point. If you've ever played in a scenario where you were held accountable for your performance via Recount then you'd realize what a blessing it can be, and that 99.999% of people you're gonna play with are not the kind of d-bags who are going to kick you because they want to see that % just a few points higher by your name. It's great for telling when someone's doing something like, say, afk-ing during fights, on account of the fact that people can easily lie to defend themselves from that kind of accusation. If you see someone standing around in a flashpoint, then ask them if they're afk-ing, all they have to do is say "no" and then you look like an a-hole for booting that person (if you do). With recount, just pull up the numbers and say, "what happened in that fight?" If they don't have a legit response then you know they're just lying to/sponging off you. This is especially important in determining whether or not you want to take someone on your guild runs, since no one wants to get gear for people who are not contributing. And before you start saying, "Oh but now people are going to say you need x dps to even play with me", just know that those people are out there and they'll be like that no matter what systems of data representation your game uses. In fact from the sound of things on these boards, they're mostly leaving this game anyway, so I doubt you'll have much to worry about there. If you can't figure out if someone is afk you might seek out a different genre of games. Pay attention to the gameplay. Don't watch tv and hit 4 hotkeys and then look at recount later to figure out what happened in front of your face. Knowing what is going on is part of playing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Guys, according to Setanian's logic, pretty much all competitive sports are cheating. It's cheating if you get to pick and choose who you want to play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Guys, according to Setanian's logic, pretty much all competitive sports are cheating. It's cheating if you get to pick and choose who you want to play with. You lost to the dog I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Anyone talking about recount being "wholly unnecessary" has obviously never experienced a guild wipe that was entirely one person's fault, and obviously hasn't had to offer some explanation/justification to the 20+ angry people in raid/guild chat (or vent if you're "serious") as to why that just happened and why we're going to do it again anyway because we know what happened and what to look out for on this next attempt. Vent also shortcuts gameplay, because it allows ppl to talk about a fight and play it at the same time, is that also cheating/something that shouldn't be allowed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 recount ... NO.. If you cant play a game that doesn´t have it... go play the game that has it. simple right ?No, not simple. Since we're getting combat logs, we're going to see combat parsing, and most likely 3rd party live dps meters (like ACT). It happened in RIFT. That means we're going to see dps spam in game. An in game version of recount is much better situation for everyone, since it reduces dps spam (assuming BW is smart and doesn't include that feature). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strah Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 the more i raid, the more i need it. I'm considering quitting until they release some sort of recount or logs, because other way we're just blindly poking at the bosses without knowing who is making mistakes and whose fault it is bosses enrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyar Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Vent also shortcuts gameplay, because it allows ppl to talk about a fight and play it at the same time, is that also cheating/something that shouldn't be allowed? Communication isn't the same as parsing combat data. Why do people always try and pull these kinds of cards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reecelol Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 recount ... NO.. If you cant play a game that doesn´t have it... go play the game that has it. simple right ? you know games that had damage meters DIDNT have them at one point, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Vent also shortcuts gameplay, because it allows ppl to talk about a fight and play it at the same time, is that also cheating/something that shouldn't be allowed?Vent is, by far, a bigger offender on this front. I remember there was a discussion on the rift forums related to this... someone had made a combat parsing app that allowed the user to set up alerts (ala dbm). There was this girl that was railing about how terrible it was, cheating and using a 3rd party app. Someone went to her guild site and point out how they used vent, and that she was being extremely hypocritical... she never came back to the thread after that, even after being asked nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 If you can't figure out if someone is afk you might seek out a different genre of games. Pay attention to the gameplay. Don't watch tv and hit 4 hotkeys and then look at recount later to figure out what happened in front of your face. Knowing what is going on is part of playing the game. I'm just saying, if you ask said afk-er if he's afk-ing, he's obviously not going to be forthcoming about it. It's just a way to avoid the headache that comes from that, since you can cite numbers and be done with it. I really only used that as an example of a situation where recount is POTENTIALLY useful, not trying to say that's the absolute justification for recount...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Communication isn't the same as parsing combat data. Why do people always try and pull these kinds of cards?Because communication is an even bigger advantage than parsing. It's exactly the same issue and you're just being hypocritical about it because you like using vent but dislike parsing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Then you're making a purely circular argument based on a false premise, and asserting that it's cheating with 0 supporting evidence. Using addons is not literally stacking the deck. It might be figuratively stacking the deck, but it's definitely not literally stacking the deck. That's you opinion I have mine. yeah I know you're gonna come back with some opinions a**holes type comment. I don't mind. So, feel free to offer a valid argument if you come up with one (or playing forum chicken with the mods by continuing to add insults if that's what you prefer) Forums moderators don't scare me anymore than you do. You're the one that brought up age... and you're not making much of a case for yourself. If that's your real age, well, then I'd say you should keep it to yourself; a teen would have some sort of excuse for acting like you are... but a real adult, not so much. Look mate, if you're going to throw insults at me, be very assured no moderator in the land is going to stop me returning the favour. Well, they might delete and save you face, and send me a nasty.. shrug. I'm never looking for a guaranteed win. And I doubt I'll do much with any addons myself (since I'm a casual and not particularly planning on raiding in tor). Are you using circular logic and throwing around insults because you can't actually make any sort of logical case to back up your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 That last post except the last 2 para's are mine, the last 2 paras are someone else's. The forums are FUBAR"D much like the game itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 you know games that had damage meters DIDNT have them at one point, right? This. Just look at the sheer number of addons that have been incorporated into the UI's of "other games" and you'll see not only do these things not break the gameplay, they can actually be extremely helpful for devs to find a way to improve their product. Scrolling combat text anyone? That was an addon too at one point, I hope it's not cheating to have my damage numbers actually pop up on the gamefield near the mob I'm fighting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) That's you opinion I have mine. .No, I'm posting a fact. You're making a purely circular argument with no supporting evidence. You're asserting that it's cheating, and then concluding that it's cheating because you've asserted that it's cheating. fact: you are making a circular argument with no supporting evidence. Forums moderators don't scare me anymore than you do.I'm not erally sure what this is about; I'm not insulting anyone, and I'm not trying to scare anyone. I'm not trying to boast about myself or make other people respect me because I'm supposedly old. Look mate, if you're going to throw insults at me, be very assured no moderator in the land is going to stop me returning the favour. Well, they might delete and save you face, and send me a nasty.. shrug.I'm not sure where you think I've insulted you. I'm never looking for a guaranteed win. And I doubt I'll do much with any addons myself (since I'm a casual and not particularly planning on raiding in tor). Are you using circular logic and throwing around insults because you can't actually make any sort of logical case to back up your opinion?You had some sort of problem with your quoting. It's not a problem with the forums, you just didn't finish quoting correctly.. Edited January 13, 2012 by ferroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Because communication is an even bigger advantage than parsing. It's exactly the same issue and you're just being hypocritical about it because you like using vent but dislike parsing. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This. Just look at the sheer number of addons that have been incorporated into the UI's of "other games" and you'll see not only do these things not break the gameplay, they can actually be extremely helpful for devs to find a way to improve their product. Scrolling combat text anyone? That was an addon too at one point, I hope it's not cheating to have my damage numbers actually pop up on the gamefield near the mob I'm fighting.... being able to filter those out to a different window in EQ was huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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