Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Ravbek]

I do not support these kind of tools. Yes it would be interesting for me to know these things as I'm a numbers person but I don't like that they are used to discriminate against people.

 

I also believe that it takes out an element of the skill involved; things like threat metres allow DPS classes to stay right on the edge without having to think about it. I would prefer to use my own skill and judgement and try to balance my threat to DPS.

 

I feel it just turns a game into a number crunching machine and that's not why I play.

[GalacticKegger]

Are you raiding Hardmode SoA or Nightmare bosses?

 

How does a raid leader(myself) know which DPS is not cutting it if we are hitting the enrage timers with everybody having equal gear?

Guessing the healers could tell you who wasn't cutting it. Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[RealAeiouy]

DPS meters are super important in that in a raiding situation (or even in a small flashpoint situation) they can help you identify extremely weak links. Now I'm actually really lenient on how bad someone has to be before I kick them - and DPS isn't always a reason. There are plenty of times on other games where I've kicked the top dpser, either for being a jerk or because they absolutely failed to mechanics - whether avoiding boss mechanics or because they were incapable of interrupting or cc'ing when they needed to. It doesn't always have to do with damage; recount can tell you when people mess up these things as well.

 

Really it comes down to the idea that I don't like the thought of carrying people who refuse to put any effort in - including myself. When I first started a new class, I certainly wasn't amazing, and recount was a way to help judge where I was and how hard I needed to work to get to where I should be. Because that carrying thing works both ways - I don't want people having to carry me, either.

 

 

That is the problem though it should not be about the individual it should be about teamwork. If you all fail you need to work together to do better. All parsing does is single out indivuduals to be accused plus it just forces bad players to play overpowered specs.

 

Bad players don't become good because of parsing bad players just end up playing classes with the highest minimum dps so they don't get hassled. When people do low dps in a pug or raid people don't try to help them to improve they say shape up or ship out. So they end up changing to the fotm and half the dps plays one class.

 

How is that better gameplay? That is horrible. Real achievement is taking a group of people all playing the characters they want to play and then working together.

 

Few players play at 99.99 efficiency so there is always room for everyone to do more.

 

Finally most of the people who assert dps thresholds have never done the math and could never explain precisely the numbers they are using to determine good and bad. I remover doj g heroics when cata came out and people had ridiculous numbers that were not accurate or necessary. I had done the math and the content but the people parroting the numbers could never actual defend or justify them.

 

If you can not do content without parsers you need to pay more attention and play smarter. One of the problems is people have replaced paying attention with a dps meter. It is lazy and more importantly bad gameplay.

[Wasqa]

Something like page 46 when this conversation was going on yesterday. I must have linked it three days on the 12th alone. If you can't be bothered to read the thread then it's not my problem!

 

Thank you.

[Happylol]

Guessing the healers could tell you who wasn't cutting it.

 

I am the healer... how do I know how much each DPS is doing?

 

Can I watch and see if people are standing still and not dpsing? sort of. Can I actually tell if people are doing the DPS they are able to? no way.

[Buur]

That is the problem though it should not be about the individual it should be about teamwork. If you all fail you need to work together to do better. All parsing does is single out indivuduals to be accused plus it just forces bad players to play overpowered specs.

 

How do you play better if you don't know who is playing bad in the first place? This isn't a Disney movie. "Ok team, now everyone really, really try hard this time! LET'S GO! YEAHHHHHHH!!!!"

[Happylol]

How do you play better if you don't know who is playing bad in the first place? This isn't a Disney movie. "Ok team, now everyone really, really try hard this time! LET'S GO! YEAHHHHHHH!!!!"

 

woah.

 

Somebody using logic??????

 

Ok team, now everyone really, really try hard this time! LET'S GO! YEAHHHHHHH!!!!"

 

This pretty much sums up the need.

 

me as a raid leader, "ok everybody lets do the same thing this time but everybody do 5% more DPS!!!!!"

[hushia]

If you can use a dps meter like recount to only watch and improve your own performance and see how different choices affect your overall dps, I'm all for it.

 

However if you want the dps meter to judge other people's dps and tell them to leave if they do not live up to 'your standard', I'm dead against it. If a group is killing the stuff that needs to be killed, all is well. If a group is not killing stuff, just leave and find another one, no need to start picking on people.

 

The exception to this is a raid environment where people know eachother and have a common goal to better themselves and best the raid challenges they face. Then a combat log parser can prove really helpful in analyzing overall performance and finding ways to improve on.

 

And to everyone who says recount is not the one responsible for namecalling and elitist behavior: don't pretend to be ignorant, we all know how it is being used just for that in 'the other game'.

Edited January 13, 2012 by hushia

[GalacticKegger]

That's the thing, though. Addons made Blizzard come up with much more dynamic fights that were harder and harder to gauge with timers and stuff. It made them more fun. As a former hardcore FFXI player, I can appreciate not having addons in fights, but those usually used time consumption as a gauge for difficulty (ohai 13-hour boss fights). WoW took a different approach, where you could kill a boss in 10 minutes, but you had to jump through hoops to do so.

 

Both ways are fun, but I have a really difficult time thinking SW:ToR will implement super bosses that take hours to kill, and as much as I'd like to see them do it, I have a hard time believing they will make bosses as dynamic as they were in WoW.

Fight mechanics can have epic intricacies designed into them without addons turning them into complicated messes. For that the honus falls on creative direction. You mentioned Sunwell. I thought that instance was a perfect example of how a raid instance should be designed and implemented. WoW's dev began relying on their 3rd party modders when people griped about how tough Sunwell was. Blizz blew a golden opportunity by letting the addon community come to their rescue. What Blizzard should have done was give players time to learn it. Instead they threw in quick hitters (by comparison) like ZA and Magisters to bypass the whining and get players gearing for the LK xpac which was on the horizon. Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[hushia]

<snip>

 

Bad players don't become good because of parsing bad players just end up playing classes with the highest minimum dps so they don't get hassled. When people do low dps in a pug or raid people don't try to help them to improve they say shape up or ship out. So they end up changing to the fotm and half the dps plays one class.

 

<snip>

 

You actually bring up a good point. When looking at a dps meter and constantly seeing the same class right there at the top, you kind of create an image of 'the best dps class'. It takes away from the diversity of the game. After all, the only thing you need is sufficient dps to get the job done while having fun playing your favorite class. It should not be about number crunching and min-maxing.

Edited January 13, 2012 by hushia

[GalacticKegger]

I am the healer... how do I know how much each DPS is doing?

 

Can I watch and see if people are standing still and not dpsing? sort of. Can I actually tell if people are doing the DPS they are able to? no way.

Chances are good if someone blows an enrage timer they'll be the first to either flame out or run away.

[hushia]

I am the healer... how do I know how much each DPS is doing?

 

Can I watch and see if people are standing still and not dpsing? sort of. Can I actually tell if people are doing the DPS they are able to? no way.

 

As a healer I can tell you exactly who is responding correctly to the fight mechanics and who is not. The ones just standing there hitting the boss's butt totally ignoring any aoe damage are hard to miss..

[Happylol]

As a healer I can tell you exactly who is responding correctly to the fight mechanics and who is not. The ones just standing there hitting the boss's butt totally ignoring any aoe damage are hard to miss..

 

2 points here

 

Mechanics- This is definitely a solid argument in regards to DPS meters. They do not account for who does the mechanics correctly and who does not.

 

Actual DPS- This is where the real issue is. On a fight like Gharj on NM, if the melee are both doing the mechanics correctly(meaning running out on pounces) how do I then figure out who is doing worst DPS?

 

I would rather have people do 75% dps and 100% mechanics, but if they are all doing 100% mechanics already the actual DPS is what matters.

[CapitaFK]

Fight mechanics can have epic intricacies designed into them without addons turning them into complicated messes. For that the honus falls on creative direction. You mentioned Sunwell. I thought that instance was a perfect example of how a raid instance should be designed and implemented. WoW's dev began relying on their 3rd party modders when people griped about how tough Sunwell was. Blizz blew a golden opportunity by letting the addon community come to their rescue. What Blizzard should have done was give players time to learn it. Instead they threw in quick hitters (by comparison) like ZA and Magisters to bypass the whining and get players gearing for the LK xpac which was on the horizon.

 

Granted, dynamic mechanics are possible without the use of addons. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying that I liked Blizzard's response to the addons.

 

However, on the topic of a parser, I don't see any viable argument against one in a guild raiding environment -- at all.

 

Here's an example of just how it's used in pretty much every world top 100 guild...

 

As a long time member of the Hunter theorycrafting community, and theorycrafting in general, we used tools to figure out our maximum possible DPS.

 

Case in point: http://www.femaledwarf.com/

 

That tool gave us the most accurate representation of the highest amount of DPS possible in the best possible scenario. That means zero movement, zero lag, perfectly casted abilities, exact proc percentage, etc. for a single boss fight. It tells you exactly how many shots are possible for the specific amount of time it takes to kill the boss (based on user input).

 

Say that tool says I should be doing 18,000 DPS in my gear against a specific boss. I go into that fight and only do 15,000. Thus, I compare my parses with the tool and see that I did 8/9 Chimera Shots, 37/40 Steady Shots, but only 144/190 Auto Shots. This tells me I was moving too much and missing about 26% of my Auto Shots. So next time I go into the fight, I weave my Auto Shots in between spurts of movement and end up with 17,000 DPS. That's perfectly in line with possible lag and other variables.

 

This is an example of how it can be used productively, and how pretty much all the top hardcore raiders do it.

 

That's not all, either. Some of us play to min/max. It's what we find fun. Just like you don't want to alienate those who want the immersion, why alienate those of us who play a different way instead of allowing the option for either one? Is that really fair?

Edited January 13, 2012 by CapitaFK

[guided_by_voices]

Granted, dynamic mechanics are possible without the use of addons. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying that I liked Blizzard's response to the addons.

 

However, on the topic of a parser, I don't see any viable argument against one in a guild raiding environment -- at all.

 

Here's an example of just how it's used in pretty much every world top 100 guild...

 

As a long time member of the Hunter theorycrafting community, and theorycrafting in general, we used tools to figure out our maximum possible DPS.

 

Case in point: http://www.femaledwarf.com/

 

That tool gave us the most accurate representation of the highest amount of DPS possible in the best possible scenario. That means zero movement, zero lag, perfectly casted abilities, exact proc percentage, etc. for a single boss fight. It tells you exactly how many shots are possible for the specific amount of time it takes to kill the boss (based on user input).

 

Say that tool says I should be doing 18,000 DPS in my gear against a specific boss. I go into that fight and only do 15,000. Thus, I compare my parses with the tool and see that I did 8/9 Chimera Shots, 37/40 Steady Shots, but only 144/190 Auto Shots. This tells me I was moving too much and missing about 26% of my Auto Shots. So next time I go into the fight, I weave my Auto Shots in between spurts of movement and end up with 17,000 DPS. That's perfectly in line with possible lag and other variables.

 

This is an example of how it can be used productively, and how pretty much all the top hardcore raiders do it.

 

That's not all, either. Some of us play to min/max. It's what we find fun. Just like you don't want to alienate those who want the immersion, why alienate those of us who play a different way instead of allowing the option for either one? Is that really fair?

 

I don't think anyone against them (myself included) will argue that they are not useful. what we are arguing is that they do more harm then good to the game in general and that is why we don't want them.

[Amiracle]

Why are all these guilds inviting people to their guild/raid who don't participate?

[CapitaFK]

I don't think anyone against them (myself included) will argue that they are not useful. what we are arguing is that they do more harm then good to the game in general and that is why we don't want them.

 

I'd like a guild-only raid parser. Pug groups won't have access to it (only their own personal ones), and only the guild leader and/or officers can toggle it on. But I highly doubt they'd program that.

[Bowlan]

Its a game, not a job.

[RealAeiouy]

Its a game, not a job.

 

 

Right so you should be playing the game and not pour over spreadsheets and data analysis like people do at a job.

[trublmaker]

I do not support these kind of tools. Yes it would be interesting for me to know these things as I'm a numbers person but I don't like that they are used to discriminate against people.

 

I also believe that it takes out an element of the skill involved; things like threat metres allow DPS classes to stay right on the edge without having to think about it. I would prefer to use my own skill and judgement and try to balance my threat to DPS.

 

I feel it just turns a game into a number crunching machine and that's not why I play.

 

^^ This. Good players adapt. I doubt raid guilds are having much trouble with endgame content without the use of meters, and the players crying for meters are the ones most likely to abuse them.

[Hy_C]

I knew saving this post would be a good idea. To those of you who think that the current tier of raiding doesn't need meters or good guilds don't need parsers please read this quote.

 

Most people in this thread are *********** clueless so let me fill you in.

 

Let's take the current ONLY impossible fight in the game: Soa, the Infernal One, on nightmare mode. This thread details why is it impossible: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=147413

 

Note where you have to meet utterly IMPOSSIBLE DPS requirements over a set period of time to even come close to killing the boss. This is why universal combat logs are necessary. If I'm playing and achieving 2.2k DPS over 20 seconds (it's actually impossible at the moment, but I digress) and everyone else it apart from 1 person who is doing 1.1k DPS I have a bloody right to know who that complete *********** moron is so I can either tell him to DPS properly, or get the **** out of my progression - aiming for World Firsts - guild.

 

Let's take a completely doable fight, Commander Jorland in Boarding Party:

The engineer has no aggro table and 90,000 hp~

The medic has an aggro table and 90,000 hp~

Commander Jorland has 120,000 hp~

 

The enrage is 150 seconds:

400,000 / 2666.66

2666.66 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 888.88

 

Now this is a tightly tuned enrage, which also requires interrupts on the Medic (else he gets healed) and exceptional healing. If you wipe to the enrage there are multiple reasons why:

1) Interrupts on medic weren't occuring, meaning he was taking longer to kill

2) DPS wasn't high enough

3) Healing didn't allow DPS to properly rotate their max DPS rotation

4) People weren't focusing properly

5) Someone died - out of their own stupidity/healing issue

 

That's 5 reasons why a boss didn't die due to a strict enrage. A global combat log, thus something designed like Skada (Skada) would help identify the reason. Skada has these different modes:

- Damage done,

- DPS, Threat,

- Enemy damage done,

- Enemy damage taken,

- Healing, Overhealing,

- Total healing,

- Absorbs estimated,

- Damage taken, Dispels,

- Mana regen,

- Debuff uptimes,

- Activity

 

There is only 1 reason why people wouldn't want something like Skada in this game: they don't want their DPS to be recognised. If someone said to me "your DPS will be too low" I'd say to them, as a good player, "take me and let me wipe the floor with you." I know I'm good, I know a combat log would show I'm good, thus I'm not afraid of a combat log being added into the game.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Hy_C

[GalacticKegger]

Granted, dynamic mechanics are possible without the use of addons. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying that I liked Blizzard's response to the addons.

 

However, on the topic of a parser, I don't see any viable argument against one in a guild raiding environment -- at all.

As I've posted before, I'm not against the use of addons as long they don't become a defining element of the game's combat mechanics. Combat logs are a must for progression guilds, though few who claim to be actually are. DPS meters are best suited for target dummies where practice does not make perfect - perfect practice makes perfect. If perfection in min/maxing is something one aspires to, cool. Just leave it on the range. Our mantra was always raid like you practice, don't practice while you raid.

 

I kinda felt Blizz's reaction was a bit ... kneejerk. I think they were just running out of creative juice and used the weirdness that the combat addons enabled as a way out. A game full of Sunwells (pre-addon) is a game with staying power. That should be Bioware's end game raid benchmark IMHO.

Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[trublmaker]

I knew saving this post would be a good idea. To those of you who think that the current tier of raiding doesn't need meters or good guilds don't need parsers please read this quote.

The irony is delicious because you are using a post from someone on my ignore list.

[Hy_C]

Fight mechanics can have epic intricacies designed into them without addons turning them into complicated messes. For that the honus falls on creative direction. You mentioned Sunwell. I thought that instance was a perfect example of how a raid instance should be designed and implemented. WoW's dev began relying on their 3rd party modders when people griped about how tough Sunwell was. Blizz blew a golden opportunity by letting the addon community come to their rescue. What Blizzard should have done was give players time to learn it. Instead they threw in quick hitters (by comparison) like ZA and Magisters to bypass the whining and get players gearing for the LK xpac which was on the horizon.

 

I don't quite remember how Blizzard "let the addon community come to their rescue" since I was into pvp at the time. How exactly did they do this?

[Happylol]

As I've posted before, I'm not against the use of addons as long they don't become a defining element of the game's combat mechanics. Combat logs are a must for progression guilds, though few who claim to be actually are. DPS meters are best suited for target dummies where practice does not make perfect - perfect practice makes perfect. If perfection in min/maxing is something one aspires to, cool. Just leave it on the range. Our mantra was always raid like you practice, don't practice while you raid.

 

I kinda felt Blizz's reaction was a bit ... kneejerk. I think they were just running out of creative juice and used the weirdness that the combat addons enabled as a way out. A game full of Sunwells (pre-addon) is a game with staying power. That should be Bioware's end game raid benchmark IMHO.

 

I am fairly confident Bioware is already making mechanics that rely on these being defining elements.

 

Bioware does not design a boss around the fact that people all do 2k DPS only, but they might design a boss with an enrage timer of lets say 5-6 minutes(which is the time for the first 2 bosses if i am not mistaken).

 

if the above is true that means that Bioware is indirectly allowing the boss to be killed only if people do X DPS, in which case your whole argument goes out the window.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Happylol