Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[aimbotcfg]

Just saying, man. Movement alone is a huge variable that can't truly be accounted for with hard math (assuming a dynamic fight and not tank'n'spank). Unless, of course, you want to argue that you can calculate the exact number of tiles and the amount of time it takes for the player to traverse the tiles, along with accounting for other variables that are dependent on the encounter, all on the fly. I'd be rather impressed if you could.

 

Add to that resource management, improvisation, pots, boss specificmechanics or buffs.

 

Nice to see someone whos actually played an MMO before posting.

[VicSix]

 

Edit: In my day, we had to stopwatch rotations to see what kind of DPS we did, now we have everything spelled out on the character sheet and just need to put it into a calc. I'll be glad if BW adds add-ons, but if the majority is against it, I'm not going to argue for them, because frankly, they're not needed.

We don't NEED add-ons we WANT them. We didn't NEED this game, we wanted it. No one has to use an add-on if they don't want to.

[GalacticKegger]

I hear Hammer Station or any Flashpoint in the game is as hard as Sunwell or Icecrown Citadel amirite?

I'll give you Sunwell as a real sphincter factor 10. But we cleared it before WotLK and the only add-on anyone in our guild used for raids was HealBot. We preferred a straight fight to all that sneaking around. ICC . . . I love how "King" Arthas was turned into the demigod of Defile Oil Slicks. ICC was an arcade loot pinata within 2 months, and most of the boss fights were intricately woven to beat DBM. That was when I started loosing interest in WoW. Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Iskevosi]

That would be nice. Could you link to back up your statement?

 

Something like page 46 when this conversation was going on yesterday. I must have linked it three days on the 12th alone. If you can't be bothered to read the thread then it's not my problem!

[CapitaFK]

Add-ons won't help at all with movement, neither will recount. As for buffs:

 

"Guys, there's this debuff here that says the boss has 4% lower armour rating per stack applied, what does this do"

"It... lowers his armour rating by 4% per stack?"

 

Add-ons do help with movement, actually.

 

I said it earlier. As I Hunter, I learned that Auto Shots were approximately 33-36% of my total DPS. Thus, I learned to "stutter step", which was moving in between shots, as opposed to practically every other non-raiding Hunter out there who just cancelled their Auto Shots and sprinted to move. Against my fellow guild Hunter who I taught to "stutter step" after, I did 3000 more DPS than he did with the same gear in that fight.

[VicSix]

actually he's right. the people truly afraid of the math are the ones using the addon to do it.

Your using a computer to essentially play a dice roll game.

[Iskevosi]

No it breeds an unnecessary sense of elitism.

 

You don't have to know whether your rotation is perfectly optimized you really only need to know whether its successful in downing the boss.

 

Essentially its a useless addon that's used to soothe ego's and assert blame.

 

So no I wouldn't like to see recount. or Gear Score or any other such nonsense. Welcome to MMO's that aren't WoW, an entire industry has existed without these addons and actually thrived.

 

This ^

 

We just don't need those people that believe they have the right to dictate to any of us how we should be playing our game. A game that we are paying for.

[Truga]

I'm not saying its gamebreaking, I'm just saying that its irritating, frustrating, and I've not seen a post yet that has an actual plausible reason for people to be so adamantly against them that the majority of the posts center around people who want them being the scum of the earth.

 

I'm thinking there are a lot of people here having kneejerk reactions for ... well.... God only knows what reason.

 

Thing is, I agree. But a lot of the pro-meter crowd spews out such crap that it's impossible to comprehend how they formed their opinion on this matter. Reading them feels like it's utterly and completely impossible to min/max in this game currently, when there's plenty of min/maxing and theorycrafting going on already. The tanking post in one of the threads has all the formulas you could possibly need to calculate your damage reduction, and calculate a bosses AR depending on the damage you do.

 

Yes, I want add-ons, but making it sound like the game is impossible to play without them makes me want to :rage: because it sounds super-retarded.

[CapitaFK]

I'll give you Sunwell as a real sphincter factor 10. But we cleared it before WotLK and the only add-on anyone in our guild used for raids was HealBot. We preferred a straight fight to all that sneaking around. ICC . . . I love how "King" Arthas was turned into the demigod of Defile Oil Slicks. ICC was an arcade loot pinata within 2 months, and most of the boss fights were intricately woven to beat DBM. That was when I started loosing interest in WoW.

 

Hard Mode 25LK?

 

I'm capable of avoiding Defiles without timers (or doing regular LK without mods in general), but doing so with traps launching people off the platform along with Valks and all the other random crap Blizzard decided to throw into the HM fight all at the same time would be pretty tough without it.

 

Also, none of the Flashpoints in the game currently are even as hard as regular 10-man ICC.

Edited January 13, 2012 by CapitaFK

[guided_by_voices]

Your using a computer to essentially play a dice roll game.

 

and when you use addons you are using a script to beat another set of scripts. not sure what your point is.

[RealAeiouy]

We don't NEED add-ons we WANT them. We didn't NEED this game, we wanted it. No one has to use an add-on if they don't want to.

 

So why not just sell all loot on vendors so people who want to get it that way can and others can raid for it? When you are talking about things that fundamentally alter the challenge of the game it is not just a matter of giving people what they want

 

I want a button that freezes all mobs and heals me to full whenever I want, you are free not to use it if you like.

[Happylol]

Here is a perfect example of why we need SOMETHING.

 

HM SoA-

Pugging HM SoA, we fight the boss like 7 times before killing it.

 

If we had meters and we killed it, we can see who was worst and either decide not to bring them or bring them again.

 

now lets say we did NOT kill it after 10 tries and decided to stop.

 

The problem now is, we have ABSOLUTELY no idea who was doing the worse DPS. There is no way we can decide who to bring or drop the next week because we have nothing to compare it to.

 

For all I know as the raid leader(healing) everybody was doing lets say X DPS equally and we killed it.

 

It could of possibly been everybody was doing X dps minus 1 person doing about half or a third of that, and we have 0% chance of knowing who that person is.

 

How does one go about solving an issue like this without a meter of some sort?

Edited January 13, 2012 by Happylol

[VicSix]

 

Yes, I want add-ons, but making it sound like the game is impossible to play without them makes me want to :rage: because it sounds super-retarded.

 

Same here, I played with alot of real life friends that never used add ons in wow. Never had a problem with them in raids, ever. They were all mmo vets and just didn't like to take the time to download mods. I liked cosmetic mods and bar mods. We played how we wanted to play.

[Buur]

So why not just sell all loot on vendors so people who want to get it that way can and others can raid for it? When you are talking about things that fundamentally alter the challenge of the game it is not just a matter of giving people what they want

 

I want a button that freezes all mobs and heals me to full whenever I want, you are free not to use it if you like.

 

That is in no way comparable to what anyone in this thread has ever said.

[RealAeiouy]

So the TL : DR of your post in reply to mine is 'nah nah nah I'm not listening?'

 

The information is there in game yes, but people make mistakes in calculating it, or omissions, all the time.

 

I'm not saying its gamebreaking, I'm just saying that its irritating, frustrating, and I've not seen a post yet that has an actual plausible reason for people to be so adamantly against them that the majority of the posts center around people who want them being the scum of the earth.

 

I'm thinking there are a lot of people here having kneejerk reactions for ... well.... God only knows what reason.

 

It is none of that. It simply makes the game much easier and more importantly removes people from being focused on actual gameplay and working together.

 

When a raid fails everyone should work together to improve. With a dps parser people just blame one or two people and tell them to get better. Nothing about them creates a better game. It removes people from actually paying attention while fighting and it significantly hurts the positive aspects of actual team work

 

It is a lazy short cut for people who just want loot but who don't want to play the game to get the loot.

[Drebs]

I would not support a system that broadcasts performance to the entire group, but would support something that let each individual know how they're doing.

 

Bioware has promised a story-focused MMO, and thus far the leveling process delivers. Once recount is introduced, the game becomes competition-focused.

[VicSix]

and when you use addons you are using a script to beat another set of scripts. not sure what your point is.

And when your not using addons your doing the same thing.

[VicSix]

I would not support a system that broadcasts performance to the entire group, but would support something that let each individual know how they're doing.

 

Bioware has promised a story-focused MMO, and thus far the leveling process delivers. Once recount is introduced, the game becomes competition-focused.

 

For raiding guilds, guilds you don't have to join.

[GalacticKegger]

Hard Mode 25LK?

 

I'm capable of avoiding Defiles without timers, but doing so with traps launching people off the platform along with Valks and all the other random crap Blizzard decided to throw into the HM fight would be pretty tough without it.

Exactly! The reason those inane (and historically innacurate according to WoW lore) fight mechanics were pulled out of someone's arse to begin with is because they had to beat the cheats. How different would ICC have been were addons not part of the game, and the instance was designed without considering them for their mechanics? Here's guessing that both difficulty and challenge would have been similar. I believe THAT is what the folks who prefer they not be added to TOR are basing their opinions on, and has nothing to do with being a raider or non-raider.

[Buur]

I would not support a system that broadcasts performance to the entire group, but would support something that let each individual know how they're doing.

 

Bioware has promised a story-focused MMO, and thus far the leveling process delivers. Once recount is introduced, the game becomes competition-focused.

 

After the story is over there is nothing to do but run dungeons, raids and pvp. In the games current state there are many other games that do those things much better. Unless Bioware improves those things people will just leave. I am fairly certain they don't want that.

[RealAeiouy]

I'm going to use a WoW comparison here, don't kill me.

 

Did they? Or are you just assuming they did? People still do this in WoW. At the start of Cata people were all about stacking crit as a secondary stat for Fury warriors because *in theory* it got you the better numbers than any other playstyle.

 

I had a theory that stacking Haste/Hit and changing my rotation a little while keeping up inner rage and HS spamming along with my rotation would do better, all the theory crafters disagreed without bothering to check it out.

 

Recount and my top 200 parses on world of logs where I consistently beat players in far far better gear agreed with me. Until the patch that smashed the bejesus out of the build and stopped it being any good but hey ho.

 

The point being that without the meters and metrics you are *GUESSING* at what is best, you can't know it is without that feedback.

 

EDIT- I'd also like to point out that that isn't an e-peen thing, the only reason I knew I was on WoL was because of one of my mates that I raid with who uploaded the logs, who I had also been discussing my hit/haste stack with. This is also the first time I've mentioned it in any of these threads due to the fact that I don't want the anti meter lunatics to reply with "ZOMGWTFBBQFFS EPEENING SHOWOFF IN OUR FACES BLEUARGHLMURGLE!". It just happens to be a prime example of *THINKING* you are min/maxing and *KNOWING* you are.

 

 

 

Mobs dying, rate of death, players dying all good feedback. It is right there learn how to read it.

 

Again it boggles my mind how many players think everyone is just guessing what to do without a combat log. Play the game not the parser. I didn't realize how removed so many people are from actual mmog gameplay. For this alone I want no parsers so players can learn the experience of playing these games as intended. It can be a lot of fun.

[guided_by_voices]

exactly! The reason those inane (and historically innacurate according to wow lore) fight mechanics were pulled out of someone's arse to begin with is because they had to beat the cheats. How different would icc have been were addons not part of the game, and the instance was designed without considering them for their mechanics? Here's guessing that both difficulty and challenge would have been similar. I believe that is what the folks who prefer they not be added to tor are basing their opinions on, and has nothing to do with being a raider or non-raider.

 

thank you!

[Nezyaj]

Make the damage meter only work for the character that has it installed. Ie, not read all the other damage sources in the party. That way it becomes more of an analyzing tool for your personal improvement instead of a bragging/cursing tool to those in party.

 

DPS means jack all if you don't move out of the fire, don't move out of the cone of damage, don't use your escape abilities, etc, etc.

 

Really, I do not see any valid needs for any damage meters. If someone in your party is questionable, inspect their gear and see if it's suitable.

[CapitaFK]

Exactly! The reason those inane (and historically innacurate according to WoW lore) fight mechanics were pulled out of someone's arse to begin with is because they had to beat the cheats. How different would ICC have been were addons not part of the game, and the instance was designed without considering them for their mechanics? Here's guessing that both difficulty and challenge would have been similar. I believe THAT is what the folks who prefer they not be added to TOR are basing their opinions on, and has nothing to do with being a raider or non-raider.

 

That's the thing, though. Addons made Blizzard come up with much more dynamic fights that were harder and harder to gauge with timers and stuff. It made them more fun. As a former hardcore FFXI player, I can appreciate not having addons in fights, but those usually used time consumption as a gauge for difficulty (ohai 13-hour boss fights). WoW took a different approach, where you could kill a boss in 10 minutes, but you had to jump through hoops to do so.

 

Both ways are fun, but I have a really difficult time thinking SW:ToR will implement super bosses that take hours to kill, and as much as I'd like to see them do it, I have a hard time believing they will make bosses as dynamic as they were in WoW.

[Happylol]

Make the damage meter only work for the character that has it installed. Ie, not read all the other damage sources in the party. That way it becomes more of an analyzing tool for your personal improvement instead of a bragging/cursing tool to those in party.

 

DPS means jack all if you don't move out of the fire, don't move out of the cone of damage, don't use your escape abilities, etc, etc.

 

Really, I do not see any valid needs for any damage meters. If someone in your party is questionable, inspect their gear and see if it's suitable.

 

Are you raiding Hardmode SoA or Nightmare bosses?

 

How does a raid leader(myself) know which DPS is not cutting it if we are hitting the enrage timers with everybody having equal gear?