Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[PjPablo]

How so? And if that were true why would it be significant?

 

To me the significance of the statement goes beyond the Recount discussion. BW needs to decide whether or not they are going to design a game that attracts the 'hardcore' (man, i hate that title but keep using it) raiding community or do they want to cater more to a casual type environment. I would prefer they try to pull both in but this conversation here makes me wonder if that's possible.

[deadselly]

DPS meters are super important in that in a raiding situation (or even in a small flashpoint situation) they can help you identify extremely weak links. Now I'm actually really lenient on how bad someone has to be before I kick them - and DPS isn't always a reason. There are plenty of times on other games where I've kicked the top dpser, either for being a jerk or because they absolutely failed to mechanics - whether avoiding boss mechanics or because they were incapable of interrupting or cc'ing when they needed to. It doesn't always have to do with damage; recount can tell you when people mess up these things as well.

 

Really it comes down to the idea that I don't like the thought of carrying people who refuse to put any effort in - including myself. When I first started a new class, I certainly wasn't amazing, and recount was a way to help judge where I was and how hard I needed to work to get to where I should be. Because that carrying thing works both ways - I don't want people having to carry me, either.

[Truga]

How do you know you are performing better if you have nothing that tells you that you are? Guessing?

 

Look, I haven't played wow so I don't know how that works, but all the MMOs I did play didn't even have a personal timestamped combat log, and people theorycrafted just fine. I honestly don't see the problem here.

[aimbotcfg]

Likely because it's more work, certainly not because it's easier.

 

Its not more work, its just a less interactive playstyle, and easier for slackers to get away with not interupting/moving out of the bad, then lie about it to stay in the group causing more wipes.

[Droidist]

I only want results that are viewable by you... this can of worms is best left closed.

[TheSkate]

Like I said earlier, you can really tell who the raiders and who the nonraiders are in this thread.

 

How so? And if that were true why would it be significant?

 

/sarcasm Because if you are a raider you HAVE to want a DPS meter because if you don't have one you can't specialize properly, put together the perfect rotation, and cobble together the exact mods required for your gear/stats.

[Truga]

/sarcasm Because if you are a raider you HAVE to want a DPS meter because if you don't have one you can't specialize properly, put together the perfect rotation, and cobble together the exact mods required for your gear/stats.

 

Yeah, min/maxing in MMOs didn't exist before WoW. You heard it here first.

[GalacticKegger]

Its not more work, its just a less interactive playstyle, and easier for slackers to get away with not interupting/moving out of the bad, then lie about it to stay in the group causing more wipes.

You're describing a combat log, right?

[Buur]

I only want results that are viewable by you... this can of worms is best left closed.

 

Even if they only make the results viewable to the individual player, groups are going to want to know what kind of DPS you did after wipes. They may as well just make it viewable to everyone.

[aimbotcfg]

Look, I haven't played wow so I don't know how that works, but all the MMOs I did play didn't even have a personal timestamped combat log, and people theorycrafted just fine. I honestly don't see the problem here.

 

I'm going to use a WoW comparison here, don't kill me.

 

Did they? Or are you just assuming they did? People still do this in WoW. At the start of Cata people were all about stacking crit as a secondary stat for Fury warriors because *in theory* it got you the better numbers than any other playstyle.

 

I had a theory that stacking Haste/Hit and changing my rotation a little while keeping up inner rage and HS spamming along with my rotation would do better, all the theory crafters disagreed without bothering to check it out.

 

Recount and my top 200 parses on world of logs where I consistently beat players in far far better gear agreed with me. Until the patch that smashed the bejesus out of the build and stopped it being any good but hey ho.

 

The point being that without the meters and metrics you are *GUESSING* at what is best, you can't know it is without that feedback.

 

EDIT- I'd also like to point out that that isn't an e-peen thing, the only reason I knew I was on WoL was because of one of my mates that I raid with who uploaded the logs, who I had also been discussing my hit/haste stack with. This is also the first time I've mentioned it in any of these threads due to the fact that I don't want the anti meter lunatics to reply with "ZOMGWTFBBQFFS EPEENING SHOWOFF IN OUR FACES BLEUARGHLMURGLE!". It just happens to be a prime example of *THINKING* you are min/maxing and *KNOWING* you are.

Edited January 13, 2012 by aimbotcfg

[CapitaFK]

what were you doing from 1-max level? i was testing out my abilities to see how they worked together and in different situations.

 

I'm sorry, but you can't min/max that way. Abilities are one thing, but some specs give more DPS than others, and some gear gives more DPS than others as well. Here, let me give you an example.

 

WoW Hunter gear Tier 9 set bonus gave our primary DoT the ability to crit.

 

There was non-set Tier 10 gear available that didn't have set bonuses, and there was a set Tier 10 that did.

 

A lot of Hunters jumped on the non-set Tier 10 gear because it was much higher level than Tier 9 gear (232 T9 vs 251 T10).

 

What they didn't know was that the 2pc bonus from T9 gear gave 300+ more DPS than full non-set T10 gear.

 

Now you had your casuals running into raids and inviting people with non-set T10 gear, and wiping to Putricide because they couldn't put out enough DPS before he enraged.

 

Then you had my guild Hunters who stuck with T9 and were already killing Lich King.

 

There was no way to determine exactly how much more DPS that set bonus was giving us without a parser. You could try to argue the math, but there were too many real world variables (movement, actual crit percentage per fight, proc frequency, boss abilities, etc.).

[aimbotcfg]

You're describing a combat log, right?

 

Not a PERSONAL combat log, which is whats being implemented in this game thanks to all the paranoid whiners being scared of accountability for their actions. The same people who are dead set against meters.

[Acesome]

No it breeds an unnecessary sense of elitism.

 

You don't have to know whether your rotation is perfectly optimized you really only need to know whether its successful in downing the boss.

 

Essentially its a useless addon that's used to soothe ego's and assert blame.

 

So no I wouldn't like to see recount. or Gear Score or any other such nonsense. Welcome to MMO's that aren't WoW, an entire industry has existed without these addons and actually thrived.

[GalacticKegger]

DPS meters are super important in that in a raiding situation (or even in a small flashpoint situation) they can help you identify extremely weak links.

We two-manned Hammer Station at level 19 (with companions of course) and wiped three times. All dps, no tank or heals. All it took was to figure out cc & burn order (determining which mobs hit the hardest or heal - combat log not required) then everything clicked. That meteor cannon btw is one of the coolest things I've ever seen in an MMO.

[TheSkate]

Yeah, min/maxing in MMOs didn't exist before WoW. You heard it here first.

 

Way to keep that sarcasm ball rolling.

[CapitaFK]

We two-manned Hammer Station at level 19 (with companions of course) and wiped three times. All dps, no tank or heals. All it took was to figure out cc & burn order (determining which mobs hit the hardest or heal - combat log not required) then everything clicked. That meteor cannon btw is one of the coolest things I've ever seen in an MMO.

 

I hear Hammer Station or any Flashpoint in the game is as hard as Sunwell or Icecrown Citadel amirite?

Edited January 13, 2012 by CapitaFK

[Truga]

The point being that without the meters and metrics you are *GUESSING* at what is best, you can't know it is without that feedback.

 

Ok, let's go from the begining again:

1) We are getting private dps meters apparently. So you won't be guessing anything.

2) All the numbers you need for calculating your exact max possible dps output are available on your character sheet and ability tooltips. You don't even need 1) to not have to "guess".

3) Recount/combat logs allows you to see exactly what happened when someone died after the fact, you don't even need to be paying attention when it happens. This makes the game easier, no matter what your arguments may be.

4) While recount/combat logs would make my job as a pug raid leader much easier, I still don't see how not having any of these things would break my game, or prevent me from min-maxing. All the information I need is already there, it just currently requires basic application of mscalc.

 

Edit: In my day, we had to stopwatch rotations to see what kind of DPS we did, now we have everything spelled out on the character sheet and just need to put it into a calc. I'll be glad if BW adds add-ons, but if the majority is against it, I'm not going to argue for them, because frankly, they're not needed.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Truga

[Buur]

You don't have to know whether your rotation is perfectly optimized you really only need to know whether its successful in downing the boss.

 

And what if you wipe over and over again? Then what?

[CapitaFK]

2) All the numbers you need for calculating your exact max possible dps output are available on your character sheet and ability tooltips. You don't even need 1) to not have to "guess".

 

Are you truly serious about this? You don't think boss armor, movement, actual crit percentage (not chance), various debuffs, and various buffs make a difference to the DPS on your character sheet?

 

I'm sorry, but you're obviously not as keen at math as you think you are.

 

Movement alone is a huge variable.

Edited January 13, 2012 by CapitaFK

[Truga]

Are you truly serious about this? You don't think boss armor, movement, actual crit percentage (not chance), various debuffs, and various buffs make a difference to the DPS on your character sheet?

 

I'm sorry, but you're obviously not as keen at math as you think you are.

 

:cripes:

[Wasqa]

Guys you're going to get the ability to have personal parsing if that is what you want. Bioware are introducing a personal combat log, with that you should be able to workout what you are good at and what you need to improve on.

 

That would be nice. Could you link to back up your statement?

[CapitaFK]

:cripes:

 

Just saying, man. Movement alone is a huge variable that can't truly be accounted for with hard math (assuming a dynamic fight and not tank'n'spank). Unless, of course, you want to argue that you can calculate the exact number of tiles and the amount of time it takes for the player to traverse the tiles, along with accounting for other variables that are dependent on the encounter, all on the fly. I'd be rather impressed if you could.

Edited January 13, 2012 by CapitaFK

[aimbotcfg]

Ok, let's go from the begining again:

1) We are getting private dps meters apparently. So you won't be guessing anything.

2) All the numbers you need for calculating your exact max possible dps output are available on your character sheet and ability tooltips. You don't even need 1) to not have to "guess".

3) Recount/combat logs allows you to see exactly what happened when someone died after the fact, you don't even need to be paying attention when it happens. This makes the game easier, no matter what your arguments may be.

4) While recount/combat logs would make my job as a pug raid leader much easier, I still don't see how not having any of these things would break my game, or prevent me from min-maxing. All the information I need is already there, it just currently requires basic application of mscalc.

 

Edit: In my day, we had to stopwatch rotations to see what kind of DPS we did, now we have everything spelled out on the character sheet and just need to put it into a calc. I'll be glad if BW adds add-ons, but if the majority is against it, I'm not going to argue for them, because frankly, they're not needed.

 

So the TL : DR of your post in reply to mine is 'nah nah nah I'm not listening?'

 

The information is there in game yes, but people make mistakes in calculating it, or omissions, all the time.

 

I'm not saying its gamebreaking, I'm just saying that its irritating, frustrating, and I've not seen a post yet that has an actual plausible reason for people to be so adamantly against them that the majority of the posts center around people who want them being the scum of the earth.

 

I'm thinking there are a lot of people here having kneejerk reactions for ... well.... God only knows what reason.

Edited January 13, 2012 by aimbotcfg

[Truga]

Just saying, man. Movement alone is a huge variable that can't truly be accounted for with hard math (assuming a dynamic fight and not tank'n'spank).

 

Add-ons won't help at all with movement, neither will recount. As for buffs:

 

"Guys, there's this debuff here that says the boss has 4% lower armour rating per stack applied, what does this do"

"It... lowers his armour rating by 4% per stack?"

[guided_by_voices]

Are you truly serious about this? You don't think boss armor, movement, actual crit percentage (not chance), various debuffs, and various buffs make a difference to the DPS on your character sheet?

 

I'm sorry, but you're obviously not as keen at math as you think you are.

 

Movement alone is a huge variable.

 

actually he's right. the people truly afraid of the math are the ones using the addon to do it.