Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Setanian]

there's a huge difference between birding the 1 key and actually performing an optimum dps rotation. you don't have an argument, you're just being childish and combative

 

ie. trolling.

 

good day sir

 

What exactly is optimum about 1,2,3,4,5?? Any child can do that.

 

And good day to you too.

[wikimon]

Finally, we get another MMO, SW:ToR and the same people are looking for the same tools to begin yet another cycle.

 

bad people will be bad people regardless of the environment you put them in.

 

the game didn't "get worse" because they put in combat logs. the game got worse because of bad people. and the only people who actually care about it are people who easily have their feelings hurt by the same

 

stop crying

[wikimon]

What exactly is optimum about 1,2,3,4,5?? Any child can do that.

 

And good day to you too.

 

but people don't. and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference without a combat log parser.

[ferroz]

Right now, you have raids on ToR. You do not have enters, therefore you cannot work out what everyone is doing, ergo, it's a toss up if you win or not based on the makeup of your party/group/raid.

True

 

These people are arguing that they do not know what everyone is doing, so they need meters that will tell them what the other payers are doing.

Actually, I think they are arguing that they want meters, and that the game needs them to remain viable, which isn't quite the same.

 

When they know that information, they can kick the players they perceive to be lacking

True

 

Then they will replace those players with players they know who can provide the necessary dps.

not quite correct. Instead of necessary substitute "better" and you'd be correct.

 

By so doing, they are stacking the cards in their favour.

If you mean the literal sense of the phrase "stacking the deck" this is a false statement. They're following the rules (using an in game, Bioware developed addon), so they cannot be literally stacking the deck in their favor.

 

If you mean the figurative or idomatic sense of the phrase, then this is a true statement, but rather meaningless.

 

If they did not have this info they would have to keep trying the encounter, but, with the information they are able to determine the outcome provided the players live up to their dps.

No ,this isn't true at all. Wit hthe information, they are able to make decisions based on facts that contribute to increasing thier chances. This is analagous to a person reading a book on poker strategies to be a better poker player. No cheating has occured.

 

Any form of stacking a situation in your favor in a gaming scenario that almost ensures you win, is cheating.

"almost ensures you win" is misleading and untrue. To be correct, you'd have to sitck to something like "improves your chances" because using meters to replace bad palyers with good ones only improves your chances, it does not "ensure a win", "almost ensure a win" or even "kind of ensure a win"

 

As illustrated above, this is either

1. Circular logic, based on false premise. (iff using the literal meaning of the phrase). This is fallacious logic.
   or
   
2. an assertion of cheating based on a statement that does not actually show any cheating has occurred. (iff figurative meaning of the phrase). This is an assertion with no supporting evidence. This case can be trivially shown to be false (simple proof by contradiction, several people have shown these)*
   

 

FACT: You are using fallacious logic. You have not offered any valid supporting evidence that using an in game recount is cheating.

 

*edit heck, I'll supply one

assume that figuratively stacking the deck = cheating.

Example: Activity is to run a relay race of X meters in under 10 minutes, but you are free to pick any people you want. Each member of your 4 man team must run 1/4 of the distance. You get a prize if your total time is under 10 minutes and get charged a penalty cost if you don't

1. Time all members of your team; 3 of them have times for x/4 meters of under 2.5 minutes, the 4th has a best time of 4 minutes.
   
2. replace the slow guy with another friend who has a best time of under 3 minutes. This is figuratively stacking the deck.
   
3. Run race and have an increased chance of winning,
   
4. no cheating has occurred
   

 

Therefore figuratively stacking the deck != cheating. QED

 

 

Go ahead, debate it with me. If you can provide cohesive argument, I will concede.

Feel free to try to come up with a valid logical argument next time. Edited January 13, 2012 by ferroz

[ManuNegra]

A fair response. And I would agree to the angry. And I'll say. For me, and I make no apologies, since wow and all it's add-ons and meters and whatever else, the MMORPG gaming community has become one big nasty group of greedy people out to win as much and as fast as possible. Then they claim they're great because they downed something.

 

When you mention, hey, you used a whole heap of tools to do it tho, I'm the bad guy.

 

The community has gotten worse. It is only since WoW, that someone would tell you to "go away" or call you care bear or all this crap like Lolz L2P and a myriad of other stuff.

 

And, it is my contention that by allowing all these easy mode raids and players, it has fostered a we're better than you type attitudes. The nastiness of these players online in the game is so far beyond where we started out that it has become a cesspit of juvenile arrogance and ignorance.

 

Finally, we get another MMO, SW:ToR and the same people are looking for the same tools to begin yet another cycle.

 

Alright well hey, I feel like you hit the nail on the head there. Even WoW wasn't that bad when it came out, so I'd say over the past few years I've seen what you're talking about. These days to compete in the MMO market, you have to do certain things the way Blizz did it, and it also happens to be the case that most of your player base at launch is going to be disgruntled WoW players (or just WoW players in general). They flock to the new game, stink it up and leave 'cause they have no patience, ruining the rest of the game's life cycle (a la Warhammer Online). Odds are that if you're this kind of person, there are factors outside of the games themselves that have led to your desire to do that.

 

That, admittedly, does suck, and I have no clue what to do about it, aside from MAYBE (huge maybe) writing posts like these? I don't know, anyway, back to the topic though.....I personally want recount, because when I go to play, I like to be able to know I'm doing as well as I can and I would prefer to cut down on time speculating, or even cut down on speculation itself. I have enough to think about IRL, I don't want to have to bust out my calculator just to know whether or not I'm kicking *** at my class the way I want to.

[nabrass]

I would love to have recount in this game. Having combat logs and meters helps me improve as a player, and helps developers balance out the game.

 

Knowledge should never be withheld.

[TradewindNQ]

I don't specifically support an inclusion of an official "Recount" mod.

 

I support the creation and open access to an API and the ability for people to create their own "Recount" mod...and many others.

[Setanian]

bad people will be bad people regardless of the environment you put them in.

 

the game didn't "get worse" because they put in combat logs. the game got worse because of bad people. and the only people who actually care about it are people who easily have their feelings hurt by the same

 

stop crying

 

Lets see, my first game was rogue on a vax 730 in 1983. I have seen the gaming community go from a world of people who could afford to set up a pc and modem to a world of every kid has a laptop and pc.

 

This world now is based on internet anonymity where people like you can say 'go away' stop crying and think you're all big and mature.

 

I'm not crying, I am how-ever wishing some gaming company would bring out a game with any add-ons or tools or meters, where people had to actually learnt o play their class, react to an unfolding raid mechanic, and not be relying on the game telling them what they need to do.

 

If you need these things then fine, I can understand why. I don't have to agree with it though. And you call it crying in some vain hope that someone might +1 you, just enforces my perception of the depths to thick the general gaming community has dropped.

[ManuNegra]

What exactly is optimum about 1,2,3,4,5?? Any child can do that.

 

And good day to you too.

 

Look man, you win more flies with honey than vinegar. How do you not see your own response as proving exactly he said about you? He brought up a valid point about optimum rotations meaning a lot more than just birding the 1 key

[GalacticKegger]

No ,this isn't true at all. Wit hthe information, they are able to make decisions based on facts that contribute to increasing thier chances. This is analagous to a person reading a book on poker strategies to be a better poker player. No cheating has occured.

Is one allowed to bring that book to the table with them and reference it while they're playing? Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Setanian]

If you mean the literal sense of the phrase "stacking the deck" this is a false statement. They're following the rules (using an in game, Bioware developed addon), so they cannot be literally stacking the deck in their favor.

 

And this is where your assertions fall down.

 

There is no add-on in the game right now, there was no add-on when the game launched. When the game launched and as it is now, there is raid content that supposed to be beaten as is.

 

So by adding the add-on they have changed the way the raid encounters can be beaten.

 

Unless of course, they add the add-on, and change the encounters to be more random.

[Elyx]

I've seen the argument in every MMO that I have played, whether they have a meter available or not.

 

First off, I am against 3rd part mods overall, period.

 

On the note of Bio adding a recount option...I am not in agreement that we need one. but I don't feel that the availability of the mod is either completely good or completely bad. As the OP stated, people WILL be judgmental no matter what aid is in the game. To me, allowing these kinds of options push the nature of the environment in a specific direction, which is what I don't like.

 

We can argue the details ad inifitum. I am simply not a fan of games that support the elitist or progression approach. I'm a fan of casual, relaxed, flexible content. LotRO is a good example of a more relaxed environment, WoW is an example of the end game focused, progression environment. I do not Like WoW, I enjoy LotRO.

 

This is not to insult anyone who prefers edge of seat progression. It is simple the reality that no One game can provide an environment for both. And i simply prefer SwtOR to be a relaxed game with story progression and flexible end game capabilities. I would not support a recount idea simply because it would be a statement from Bio that they are supporting that direction to move the game.

 

Now, if they added a recount idea but kept the game weighted heavily towards that flexibility idea, then I have no arguments with the addition. But it is the overall idea of how the game should play out, not an individual mechanic or display item, that I believe dictates this.

 

And the judgmental people, whether they kick someone because their DPS is too low, or because their character has a green item, can go the route of the dodo bird. the problem, of course, is that there are those who are making informed decisions with experience and logic, and they are fine. It is those who make judgments due to ignorance and shortsightedness that need to leave. But we will have them no matter what mod we have in Game.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Elyx

[Linamaria]

I dont care if a SWTOR Recount thing will come or not. Bosses are getting killed without it and probably will continue.

 

I don't know if i like or not recount, in WoW it helped me to improve my DPS, but also i learned that DPS meters results are not accurate, all depends on the mechanic of the fight. To measure DPS using test wood dummies is so scrub!

[ferroz]

Lets see, my first game was rogue on a vax 730 in 1983.

Wow, you really missed out on the generation of gaming before that. Gorf was pretty sweet. Edited January 13, 2012 by ferroz

[Setanian]

Alright well hey, I feel like you hit the nail on the head there. Even WoW wasn't that bad when it came out, so I'd say over the past few years I've seen what you're talking about. These days to compete in the MMO market, you have to do certain things the way Blizz did it, and it also happens to be the case that most of your player base at launch is going to be disgruntled WoW players (or just WoW players in general). They flock to the new game, stink it up and leave 'cause they have no patience, ruining the rest of the game's life cycle (a la Warhammer Online). Odds are that if you're this kind of person, there are factors outside of the games themselves that have led to your desire to do that.

 

That, admittedly, does suck, and I have no clue what to do about it, aside from MAYBE (huge maybe) writing posts like these? I don't know, anyway, back to the topic though.....I personally want recount, because when I go to play, I like to be able to know I'm doing as well as I can and I would prefer to cut down on time speculating, or even cut down on speculation itself. I have enough to think about IRL, I don't want to have to bust out my calculator just to know whether or not I'm kicking *** at my class the way I want to.

 

I am in no way against personal add ons that show *you* what you are doing. But, by a raid leader having an active meter showing every players and what they are doing they are now in a position to dictate the outcome.

[wikimon]

I'm not crying, I am how-ever wishing some gaming company would bring out a game with any add-ons or tools or meters, where people had to actually learnt o play their class, react to an unfolding raid mechanic, and not be relying on the game telling them what they need to do.

 

oh so you want it to be "everyone move to red circle" <everyone is in red circle> <game is won>

 

because that's what you're describing. without verifiable DPS/heal logging you have no idea who is pulling their weight in a raid. you could be losing week after week until people give up to go play DOTA because it's more fun all because one of your healers in the raid was picking his nose or surfing pr0n rather than participating.

 

see this is what i think happened to you that made you so bitter

 

got into a raid guild

sucked at performing

didn't want to optimize his rotation

didn't want to learn encounter mechanics to maximize performance

got outplayed by a random pickup filling in

got booted from guild because performed worse than pickup on the dps meters

guild went on to defeat encounter easily after booting you

 

you got bitter, blamed DPS meter cause without it they would have never known you simply suck at the game and refused to play it professionally.

 

blamed community for calling you what you are. which is "bad".

 

that about right sir? cause i'm feeling like i'm hitting REALLY close to the mark. without a dps meter i can't tell though...

[Setanian]

Lets see, my first game was rogue on a vax 730 in 1983.[/quuote]Wow, you really missed out on the generation of gaming before that.

 

I'm not *that* old. But I have never heard of a game on punch-cards.. Do tell

[Hy_C]

Seems some people need some facts. So I shall deliver some math.

 

Most people in this thread are *********** clueless so let me fill you in.

 

Let's take the current ONLY impossible fight in the game: Soa, the Infernal One, on nightmare mode. This thread details why is it impossible: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=147413

 

Note where you have to meet utterly IMPOSSIBLE DPS requirements over a set period of time to even come close to killing the boss. This is why universal combat logs are necessary. If I'm playing and achieving 2.2k DPS over 20 seconds (it's actually impossible at the moment, but I digress) and everyone else it apart from 1 person who is doing 1.1k DPS I have a bloody right to know who that complete *********** moron is so I can either tell him to DPS properly, or get the **** out of my progression - aiming for World Firsts - guild.

 

Let's take a completely doable fight, Commander Jorland in Boarding Party:

The engineer has no aggro table and 90,000 hp~

The medic has an aggro table and 90,000 hp~

Commander Jorland has 120,000 hp~

 

The enrage is 150 seconds:

400,000 / 2666.66

2666.66 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 888.88

 

Now this is a tightly tuned enrage, which also requires interrupts on the Medic (else he gets healed) and exceptional healing. If you wipe to the enrage there are multiple reasons why:

1) Interrupts on medic weren't occuring, meaning he was taking longer to kill

2) DPS wasn't high enough

3) Healing didn't allow DPS to properly rotate their max DPS rotation

4) People weren't focusing properly

5) Someone died - out of their own stupidity/healing issue

 

That's 5 reasons why a boss didn't die due to a strict enrage. A global combat log, thus something designed like Skada (Skada) would help identify the reason. Skada has these different modes:

- Damage done,

- DPS, Threat,

- Enemy damage done,

- Enemy damage taken,

- Healing, Overhealing,

- Total healing,

- Absorbs estimated,

- Damage taken, Dispels,

- Mana regen,

- Debuff uptimes,

- Activity

 

There is only 1 reason why people wouldn't want something like Skada in this game: they don't want their DPS to be recognised. If someone said to me "your DPS will be too low" I'd say to them, as a good player, "take me and let me wipe the floor with you." I know I'm good, I know a combat log would show I'm good, thus I'm not afraid of a combat log being added into the game.

[Hairless]

Using that self-study analogy . . . do they better prepare one for taking the test? Or do they provide the test answers?

 

Combat log is a combat log. It's an accurate log of everything that happened during combat, nothing more, nothing less.

It doesn't provide the answers. If it did, every guild should be able to kill every boss. Just looking at WoW should tell you that this isn't the case.

[ferroz]

And this is where your assertions fall down.

incorrect

 

There is no add-on in the game right now, there was no add-on when the game launched.

Irrelevant, the thread topic posits that they will add one. Any discussion outside of that context is off topic and not relevant

 

So by adding the add-on they have changed the way the raid encounters can be beaten.

So? That doesn't support your stance in any way.

 

If they add a new class in 3 years, then running the current raid content with that new class is not cheating, even if that class wasn't in the game at launch.

 

if they retune an ability in a patch tomorrow to make it stronger, it's not cheating to run the current raid content with that newly tuned ability, even if that ability didn't function in the game that way at launch.

 

if they add a new ability in a patch tomorrow, it's not cheating to run the current raid content with that new ability, even if that ability wasn't in the game at launch.

 

 

therefore

if they add an in game damage parser a patch tomorrow, it's not cheating to run the current raid content with that new ability.

 

QED

Edited January 13, 2012 by ferroz
whoops,

[Setanian]

Seems some people need some facts. So I shall deliver some math.

 

Way to go to drag a post by someone else from another thread into this one. Aint you leet !

[ManuNegra]

Is one allowed to bring that book to the table with them and reference it while they're playing?

 

No but without recount you can't even write the book! I know I'm mostly just playing on the analogy here, but you have to admit it's a little more complicated than the distinctions that define cheating in other types of games.

 

And now that I think about it, we're honestly fooling ourselves if we think Bioware's not going to introduce some kind of combat log and recount feature, so like it or not it's gonna come down to a question of shape up or ship out at the end of the day.

[ferroz]

I'm not *that* old. But I have never heard of a game on punch-cards.. Do tell

The vic20 released in 80/81; it's a personal computer. GORF released for it in 82

 

the vectrex was also out in 82.

 

there were games on the PET (released in 77), but I didn't play them. I understand that it had space invaders.

Edited January 13, 2012 by ferroz

[Hairless]

Is one allowed to bring that book to the table with them and reference it while they're playing?

 

Better analogy would be a basketball team trying to improve without having accurate data of their performance.

[Setanian]

oh so you want it to be "everyone move to red circle" <everyone is in red circle> <game is won>

 

because that's what you're describing. without verifiable DPS/heal logging you have no idea who is pulling their weight in a raid. you could be losing week after week until people give up to go play DOTA because it's more fun all because one of your healers in the raid was picking his nose or surfing pr0n rather than participating.

 

see this is what i think happened to you that made you so bitter

 

got into a raid guild

sucked at performing

didn't want to optimize his rotation

didn't want to learn encounter mechanics to maximize performance

got outplayed by a random pickup filling in

got booted from guild because performed worse than pickup on the dps meters

guild went on to defeat encounter easily after booting you

 

you got bitter, blamed DPS meter cause without it they would have never known you simply suck at the game and refused to play it professionally.

 

blamed community for calling you what you are. which is "bad".

 

that about right sir? cause i'm feeling like i'm hitting REALLY close to the mark. without a dps meter i can't tell though...

 

I think that's a personal attack, which is moderated and I already have a warning so, I won't reply in kind.

 

How-ever, I'll tell you this. I'm betting I raided in higher server wide guilds than you did on your care bear wow server.

 

Feel free to come back with some more of your fantasy palm readings though.