Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Grim_X]

It effects other players.

First off, why does that affect you? If you don't like how someone is acting you can /ignore and not group with them. You ALWAYS have that power, it is never denied to you. Secondly, I would still like someone to point out what how Recount specifically changes your game to do this. Does it lock out your chat box forcing you to only post meters? Only only type in certain words to people? Because if it does none of those things it's a user problem not a problem with the tool.

[Grim_X]

disagree. it has helped turned the wow community into the trash talking unpleasantness it is now. it has also lead to one of the worst boss mechanics of all time "enrage timer".

 

1) The enrage timer mechanic has existed through games before wow and before addons were around. It's a commonly accepted component to the "dps check" mechanic, otherwise groups could just take 15 healers, 1 dps, and 1 tank into a fight. It might take awhile but people WOULD do it.

 

2) "trash talking" is not WoW specific, it's in all games, try Call of Duty, try Halo, try Counter-Strike, try any popular online game.

 

3) Those people who "trash talk" will find ANY reason to do so, gear, personality, name, guild name, time of day, etc. To say that an addon caused it all is completely fallacious.

 

4) Lastly, to even say that one addon "ruined" (opinion) the whole community is ignorant at best and nothing but the use of 'scary' words to reinforce a point that makes no sense. Everyone's experience with a community changes and the reasons they may feel it is 'bad' will vary. I for one thought the poor side of wow's community (not all of it) was because of the neutered content and how the risk-reward component was constantly being removed. This gave the less committed players a cookie for achieving less which lead to a false sense of accomplishment and elitism. But this is my OPINION and as such I don't expect everyone to share it.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Grim_X

[guided_by_voices]

1) The enrage timer mechanic has existed through games before wow and before addons were around. It's a commonly accepted component to the "dps check" mechanic, otherwise groups could just take 15 healers, 1 dps, and 1 tank into a fight. It might take awhile but people WOULD do it.

 

2) "trash talking" is not WoW specific, it's in all games, try Call of Duty, try Halo, try Counter-Strike, try any popular online game.

 

3) Those people who "trash talk" will find ANY reason to do so, gear, personality, name, guild name, time of day, etc. To say that an addon caused it all is completely fallacious.

 

4) Lastly, to even say that one addon "ruined" (opinion) the whole community is ignorant at best and nothing but the use of 'scary' words to reinforce a point that makes no sense. Everyone's experience with a community changes and the reasons they may feel it is 'bad' will vary. I for one thought the poor side of wow's community (not all of it) was because of the neutered content and how the risk-reward component was constantly being removed. This gave the less committed players a cookie for achieving less which lead to a false sense of accomplishment and elitism. But this is my OPINION and as such I don't expect everyone to share it.

 

1- i will take a fight that takes 10, 15, 20+ min to complete over and enrage timer any day.

 

2-did you just compare FPS to an MMORPG? apples and oranges.

 

3- never said caused. said "helped turn into" not the same thing

 

4- same as 3. it was a number of things.

 

you mention "neutered" content. i will argue that addons help create this neutered content. blizzard was/is not able to keep up with the addons. addons made the game easier to play (i do not see how anyone could ague against this). content gets cleared faster and players want more more more, now now now. having developers rush content with crappy mechanics. and worse have to develop content with these addons in mind.

 

also, making the game easier took away the learning curve so layers didn't have the time to really learn how to play unassisted.

 

I'm not saying the they were the sole cause of this but they definitely made a huge contribution to it.

Edited January 12, 2012 by guided_by_voices

[evil-bob]

I'm in the "boo recount" camp. I guess for me, I've just seen how gearscore and then later recount - for all its benefits, which are indeed many - had come to completely dominate WoW. And not just end-game WoW, but normal leveling, where those tools are completely unnecessary. It came to be used as a tool of exclusion instead of inclusion - which is what MMO gaming should be about. I can say that it negatively affected my playstyle (attempting to top meters instead of focusing on the goal of the group just to prove my worth or lack of fault, ironically occasionally contributing to the lack of achieving those goals), and I'd prefer that scenario not happen again.

 

In the meantime, low-tech style stat gathering is definitely more work, and that is unfortunate. Personally I think it's a price worth paying.

[Lokiliesmith]

So, primarily I am against recount because it encourages people to be DBags. That was until last night.

 

 

Normally I run with guildies, so I know the level of competence is right where I want it. Last night a guildie and I had to pug 2 for HM BT. Now instead of clearing things with absolutely no problem we had bosses enraging on literally every fight.

 

I'm a Sorc healer, for the optional boss I just used my emergency heals and DPS'd the entire fight (we were only about 5% behind). For the final boss (the Jedi Padawan), I ended up respeccing to DPS, buying everyone medpacks and using my shield to block most of the damage so that I could DPS as hard as possible.

 

I wanted to kick someone out of the group. I wanted to send them packing until they learned how to play their class. I even would have kicked my guildie with the kind of performance we were having. But what I DIDN'T want to do was kick someone who was pulling their weight. We were close. Someone's DPS was up to snuff. But I had no way to figure out who.

 

 

Suddenly I want recount. Although I'd like it to be something that auto-hides during combat, I guess, so people don't stare at it all the time. Or only works on bosses, or something, I don't know. I just want a way to measure metrics so I have someone to direct my rage at.

[GalacticKegger]

LOL. To quote Alec Baldwin as Lt. Col. James Doolittle from the movie Pearl Harbor... "That's B.S. - but it's very, very good B.S." Edited January 12, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Hairless]

inb4 a typical anti-meter derp says "If you are good, you should have been able to identify the bad player without Recount"

 

edit: oh wow I hate you galatic.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Hairless

[Dymensia]

Yes for personal use. If I'm putting myself at the mercy of random players I actually do so by admitting I deserve any failing on the part of the group. If I'm really serious about getting something done I make sure I build my group myself.

 

I wouldn't mind it being a typical parser where you get information from your group, but I don't need it. However, I would *really* like something to review for personal use as it's nicer than spreadsheets.

[Lokiliesmith]

1- i will take a fight that takes 10, 15, 20+ min to complete over and enrage timer any day.

 

2-did you just compare FPS to an MMORPG? apples and oranges.

 

3- never said caused. said "helped turn into" not the same thing

 

4- same as 3. it was a number of things.

 

you mention "neutered" content. i will argue that addons help create this neutered content. blizzard was/is not able to keep up with the addons. addons made the game easier to play (i do not see how anyone could ague against this). content gets cleared faster and players want more more more, now now now. having developers rush content with crappy mechanics. and worse have to develop content with these addons in mind.

 

also, making the game easier took away the learning curve so layers didn't have the time to really learn how to play unassisted.

 

I'm not saying the they were the sole cause of this but they definitely made a huge contribution to it.

 

1) Enrage mechanics have nothing to do with Recount at all. Games like FFXI where there are no recount like things have begun adding enrage timers to bosses to keep people from trying to do them with a group of a tank + all heals. While YOU might consider that a valid strategy the developers of these games obviously don't. Enrage timers are a good mechanic because they make the entire team carry their weight. For instance, enrage timers mean that DPS must be careful about damage mechanics and healers need to keep them alive. Dead DPS means lost DPS and moves you that much closer to the enrage. They make the entire group/op's skill level a threshold, not just that of the tank and 1-2 healers.

 

2) How about MMOs without addons? DCUO? FFXI? EQ? SWG? I mean, yes, it's one more weapon for an jerk to use against you, but do you honestly think that you would create more jerks by putting it in?

 

3) By that logic we should get rid of auction houses, emotes, and interpersonal communication. After all, they are just ways for other people to frustrate other people. They turned perfectly fine single player games into these genital measuring contests.

 

4) I forget what you 4 was addressing. Included for completeness's sake.

 

 

Anyway, a DPS meter can be native. They don't need an addon interface to put it in. And WoW addons that have "game breaking" mechanics can always be disabled from WoW's end. They have consistently broken addons that they felt were too powerful specifically because they can and do exercise complete control over that "arms race". They don't even need to worry about collateral damage (breaking more addons than they intended). It's simply not their problem.

 

The WoW boss mechanics have gotten more complex because they are going on 8 or 9 years old and they cannot keep rehashing the same old stuff.

[dackki]

No other mmo has recount or dps meter on default ui so Tor should not have it neither.

[Lokiliesmith]

No other mmo has recount or dps meter on default ui so Tor should not have it neither.

 

So what's your idea, then? I should have just dissolved the entire group? Or should I drop 50k on a respecs every time the group's DPS sucks?

[Avrose]

Here is my take in brief feel free to read between the lines cause I won't have many.

 

Some kind of recount system is useful and I admit to having used such a tool before. Such tools however are sometimes abused as measuring sticks instead of help guides that class leaders in guilds should be using to assist the clueless.

 

This results in pointless drama with abusive or overly elitist guilds not willing to train people in the ways of the pro.

 

Since the above is more likely to happen its not worth it.

[evil-bob]

I just want a way to measure metrics so I have someone to direct my rage at.

This is actually a wonderful argument against recount.

[Lokiliesmith]

This is actually a wonderful argument against recount.

 

Is it, though? The group was obviously not up to snuff to finish the content. Someone needed to be removed. Now obviously I can talk to my guildie so I know what he's trying to do, but that does not make his method any better or worse than the 2 pugs. I know he's trying to interrupt, but so are the pugs. I know he's trying his best on DPS. So are the pugs. Someone isn't up to par, though. Do you bother determining who that is or do you just quit the group or do you just kick them in alphabetical order or what?

[Amanzuul]

Recount or another data analysis tool is just that, a tool. Like other kinds of tools they can be used correctly or incorrectly but that is up to the user. Having played a considerable time using this specifically mentioned tool and the math behind it, I understand the often erroneous conclusions some folks make when using it to make snap decisions and can recognize when another player is doing that.

 

I like the ability to at least monitor and manage my own performance and can be useful if getting stumped in downing content to help diagnose what to change or add to the encounter.

 

I support this type of tool or addon, but like any data analysis tool, the context the data was collected on, is just as important as the data itself. Poor context leads to poor conclusions.

 

"Great! you did 50k dps, unfortunately you only lived 18 seconds out of a 3 minute encounter."

[Barleigh]

I don't want meters. To be honest, this game is my relaxing slacker game. I don't want to put 100% effort most times and I can't do that if people see what I'm doing.

 

100% meaning I don't want to min max: I don't want to research my spec, I don't want to find the bis stuff for gear. I do that at the other game. =P

 

So, no to meters!

[Knyghtprowler]

At the end of the day, you have a group of people coming together to get a job done in a reasonable amount of time.

 

Should a group be held back and wipe repeatedly due to the couple people that shouldn't be there? As a guild CO for a long time - we make choices that suit the group, not the individual. Most times in a guild situation if a problem is pointed out you tell the guy or guys involved. Wipe a few more times and see if it improved - if not we replace people.

 

I am all for a tool like recount that would identify the problems in a raid so steps could be taken to fix the situation and save high repair bills and blowing an entire night on the mistakes of a couple guys not able to do their jobs due to gear or geared people just not performing.

 

Some of the best DPS have bad nights where they keep afking or just don't have their head in the raid. It's nice they showed up and I understand they want rolls on gear, but for the overall advancement of the group, those people get punted.

[Lokiliesmith]

You know, upon further review, I don't even need to see their DPS for myself. I just want some way that players can measure their own personal performance in a fight, so people know if they are the damn problem or not. I just want SOME WAY to know who is falling behind.

[Valander]

Yes

 

So that I, and everyone else, can learn to play our characters more effecitvely.

More information is never bad, its what you choose to do with that information that determins its worth.

[Spynnal]

Yes, meters are abused. They are misread. They are often misunderstood. They can cause drama.

 

But they are also useful. Even outside of groups. I like to know how gear changes/trait choices affect my output. It is not a bad thing to want to maximize your character in my humble opinion.

[guided_by_voices]

1) Enrage mechanics have nothing to do with Recount at all. Games like FFXI where there are no recount like things have begun adding enrage timers to bosses to keep people from trying to do them with a group of a tank + all heals. While YOU might consider that a valid strategy the developers of these games obviously don't. Enrage timers are a good mechanic because they make the entire team carry their weight. For instance, enrage timers mean that DPS must be careful about damage mechanics and healers need to keep them alive. Dead DPS means lost DPS and moves you that much closer to the enrage. They make the entire group/op's skill level a threshold, not just that of the tank and 1-2 healers.

 

2) How about MMOs without addons? DCUO? FFXI? EQ? SWG? I mean, yes, it's one more weapon for an jerk to use against you, but do you honestly think that you would create more jerks by putting it in?

 

3) By that logic we should get rid of auction houses, emotes, and interpersonal communication. After all, they are just ways for other people to frustrate other people. They turned perfectly fine single player games into these genital measuring contests.

 

4) I forget what you 4 was addressing. Included for completeness's sake.

 

 

Anyway, a DPS meter can be native. They don't need an addon interface to put it in. And WoW addons that have "game breaking" mechanics can always be disabled from WoW's end. They have consistently broken addons that they felt were too powerful specifically because they can and do exercise complete control over that "arms race". They don't even need to worry about collateral damage (breaking more addons than they intended). It's simply not their problem.

 

The WoW boss mechanics have gotten more complex because they are going on 8 or 9 years old and they cannot keep rehashing the same old stuff.

 

1- disagree. enrage mechanic's have created modes like recount. raid leaders like to know exactly what amount of dps is required to beat the boss in the set amount of time. you don't need recount to figure this out its just does it for you really fast.

 

2-yes, most definitely.

 

3-apples and oranges. auctions house allow you buy and sell items. can the markets be abused? definitely. mods that allow the auction house to be cheated should not be allowed. as for emotes and communication how is that the same as recount or dbm? please explain.

 

as for wow's boss mechanics. they are rehashing the same old stuff. group up here, spread out there don't stand in the bad stuff etc.. the main difference is the margin for error has gotten tighter because the human element is being phased out. in wow you are no longer reacting to what the boss has done you are anticipating to the timer the mod is giving you.

 

I come from EQlive no mods no addons. no vent, no youtube strategy. wiping and learning what happened was the fun part, and it also was more exciting. now if a group doesn't 1-2 shot the boss players leave or worse the group breaks up.

[Lokiliesmith]

1- disagree. enrage mechanic's have created modes like recount. raid leaders like to know exactly what amount of dps is required to beat the boss in the set amount of time. you don't need recount to figure this out its just does it for you really fast.

 

2-yes, most definitely.

 

3-apples and oranges. auctions house allow you buy and sell items. can the markets be abused? definitely. mods that allow the auction house to be cheated should not be allowed. as for emotes and communication how is that the same as recount or dbm? please explain.

 

as for wow's boss mechanics. they are rehashing the same old stuff. group up here, spread out there don't stand in the bad stuff etc.. the main difference is the margin for error has gotten tighter because the human element is being phased out. in wow you are no longer reacting to what the boss has done you are anticipating to the timer the mod is giving you.

 

I come from EQlive no mods no addons. no vent, no youtube strategy. wiping and learning what happened was the fun part, and it also was more exciting. now if a group doesn't 1-2 shot the boss players leave or worse the group breaks up.

 

1) Disagree all you want, the fact of the matter is that enrage mechanics are NOT a response to recount, nor is a meter necessary to beat an enrage timer, however if you are NOT beating the timer that meter is extremely useful in determining why. Without it there is simply no way of gauging the individual performances inside of a group. And it turns out that sometimes that is important. Your solution is to remove the enrage timers (make the fights easier). My solution is to figure out who is not doing their share and either correct them or remove them.

 

2) Is this one of those thing where you feel like guns create criminals, too? Jerks will be jerks, ninja will be ninja and killers will be killers. If you limit everyone else's access to tools because some people misuse them you are doing it wrong. The same guy that's making fun of you for low DPS on the meter would just find something else to be a dick about. The same people who don't care enough to be a dick in other ways aren't magically going to manifest the jerk-gene because you showed them how much you are underperforming.

 

3) DBM has nothing to do with the conversation. Completely left field, read the thread title. Your contention is that recount/meters will be a way for some players to abuse others. If that is grounds for keeping it out why not remove all ways that players can abuse each other? By opting for a blanket ban on meters you are opting for a blanket ban on a topic of conversation, essentially. One that is important to the play of a lot of people (apparently).

 

4) Recount has nothing to do with boss mechanics or how you manage them. It is a measuring stick and nothing more. It does not tell you how to play, where to move, when to move, when to DPS on/off, when to interrupt, what to interrupt, who to heal, how to heal, when to heal, what heal to use, how to gain threat, when to gain threat, when to dump threat or anything else.

 

But, when something goes wrong... when a group is consistently hitting enrage timers and everyone swears they are doing the most damage they can, how exactly would YOU recommend we determine who the weakest link is?

[sevenex]

Well, I for one am all for some type of in game "recount". I love getting into my class and playing it to the best of my ability. In order to do this, I need a way of measuring my damage done and my damage per second.

 

I have led raids in the past where we decided to not allow people to link their recount. The raid leader would link it after a fight and only if the boss fight was a success. The reason being, if you are too worried about your personal numbers, you may not be worried enough about the environmental damage or general fight mechanics.

 

One feature of recount that is often overlooked is the ability to monitor the entire raid's dps. This is so much more important than single numbers. If the fight has an enrage timer or is a gear check for the dps, this is huge.

 

Now the negatives are there. I've ran plenty of single group content with that one special guy that links his recount after every fight. I just put them on ignore after the run and move on. Easy.

 

I think it also needs to be said that pointing out low dps in a raid can be useful and constructive. When I have encountered this in the past, there is a right and wrong way to handle it. Usually, if we wipe enough on a boss fight and have to call the raid, then we look at the numbers. If someone is not pulling their weight, there is a very tactful way to approach and fix the situation. I can't tell you how many times, I have had someone who knows their class inside and out, teach someone who may be less informed about rotation, gearing and spec. Nine times out of ten that person comes away with a truckload of information and becomes a much better player as a result. This improves their game and the experiences of those around them.

 

This is impossible to achieve without data.

 

TLDR: knowledge is power.

[Wasqa]

No other mmo has recount or dps meter on default ui so Tor should not have it neither.

 

No other MMO that I know of does not have the combat log. Recount is just a name of the program that analyzes the combat log.

 

How can you tell if you are even hitting the mob if you do not see any numbers? Especially when you are t max range and overhead numbers do not show?

 

At the very least they need to implement the combat log, an it will be up to you if you want to create/use any log analyzer in or out of game.

[Stormwater]

At this point, who cares? The game is easy. Even if you under perform, bosses die. When they will turn the difficulty up a notch, then maybe.