CHOICE IS AN ILLUSION - not an RPG - MMO on rails

[abishe]

Going Light is the player choice. It is in no way forced upon you.

 

it is, sinds they output is are only 2 way's

1 dark, or 1 light.

 

 

you can only spare the jedi, or kill it.

you can only let go the trator or kill it.

you can only ignore the thief or kill it.

you can only blow up the generator or leave it.

 

see i good writer for bioware

[a_Stalker]

I'm curious how you can so casually dismiss the fact that every class in TOR has a 100% unique content chain?

 

Yes, you are required to do the content that is unique to your class. Why wouldn't you want to? When I'm leveling a new character in WoW I don't think to myself, "Self, I believe I'll hike over to Wetlands and do it again instead of going through this new zone of Ashenvale that I'm standing right next to."

 

You can do all of the things you just listed as options in WoW in TOR. You don't have to repeat the planet content chains that every class has access to. If you want you can just burn through your unique class content on every planet and make up the difference with instances and pvp. I'm on my second character and I've skipped chains I didn't like and done a lot of group content I missed the first time. I also completely skipped some planets content on my first character as I overleveled it from Instancing and PvP that I'll be doing on my second character. I'm going to be repeating a minority of content on my BH I assure you, and every single character that I make is going to have at least some unique content that I've never seen. That's awesome.

 

Like I said, the only requirement of TOR is that you do your class's unique content. I'm not sure how you can spin having fresh content on every character you make into a bad thing. This is coming from someone with 7 85's in WoW btw, I'll take TOR leveling any day of the week.

 

I am not dismissing the class quests.

 

Since IME side quests are probably 50% of my total quests, all "8 different story lines" actually happen on the same zones and with at least a 50% overlap of side quests. Why do you not say for everyone to read that from level 10 you will have to be on the same planets as everyone else, no matter what class and from there on? You will essentiually be questing at the same zones no matter what class they are, and their "own, independent, unique" story is like 50% of the total quests.

 

So much about "you can do it 8 times and it is unique". Rubbish.

 

However my point which somehow you missed, maybe I am not explaining well, is that you are on rails having to be at specific zones at specific times. You have no choice. What if at level 10 I do not fancy going to Coruscant because it is a silly place. What if at level 16 I really do not like Taris and at 20 I simply hate Nar Shaddaa. No choice.

 

If I have levelled one toon, and start another one. Is there any possible way I can avoid Coruscant, Taris, Nar Shaddaa in this order? No. Where is the uniqueness then.

 

Not only this game is on rails, they also happen to be the same rails regardless what class you are.

[WereMops]

Unless of course you're light side.

 

The OP is right. Much of the choice in this game is an illusion. You make one choice at the beginning of the game, and then much of your path is set out before you.

 

I agree and disagree, yes many of the choices are an illusion of sorts, but look at it this way, your character has a destiny, the destiny is more or less a fixed point but you have some "control" on how you get to that point, it's the journey that matters anyway, not the destination (the destination in MMO's are almost always boring anyway, atleast here the journey is entertaining).

 

Are you going to get there by public transportation, stopping to help old ladies cross the road and/or help people in need on the way like a boyscout (lightside)?

 

Are you going to take your own car and try to ignore people in need on the way unless they offer to pay you for your help (neutral)?

 

Are you going on a crimespree, stealing cars, robbing/killing people all the way there (darskide)?

Edited January 10, 2012 by WereMops

[Kurnea]

Kaliyo threatened to kill me, directly, during the course of the IA storyline. Later on, she reappears and her threats are totally forgotten. You dont get a chance to mention it, and -GOD FORBID- tell her to get bent and leave your party or be shot.

 

But thankfully, it was all voice acted!

 

You were expecting perhaps the option to say whatever you wanted and for Kaliyo to respond intelligently in real time? No themepark game is going to have true freedom in regards to choices and how it pans out. It's one big massive decision true, where if-else statements are piled on upon yet more if-else statements.

 

If you want to tell an NPC to get bent and have it react realistically, then you need another person on the other end somewhere. For what the game is, I'm fine with it. If I wanted something beyond that, I'd be playing pen & paper.

[Amdarius]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Now I can sleep well tonight because I was really worried about how you were receiving the game.

 

The fanboi defenders are soooooo hilarious in how rabidly they respond to posts like those in the OP.

 

Seriously... where do these people come from?

[Arkimor]

My first ~15 levels or so I made choices made as if I were roleplaying (something I hardly EVER do in games). I wanted to feel connected to my character.

 

I killed a few NPCs who were real a-holes, and I saved some other people who didn't deserve a grisly fate. Then went to the light/dark side vendors and saw all of the relics were based on your light/dark points.

 

I had accrued 1200 light side and 1050 dark side. I could use exactly zero relics in the game.

 

Worst game design.

 

Ever.

 

Yeah, a lot of the mechanics weren't fully thought out, sadly.

[Amdarius]

Kaliyo threatened to kill me, directly, during the course of the IA storyline. Later on, she reappears and her threats are totally forgotten. You dont get a chance to mention it, and -GOD FORBID- tell her to get bent and leave your party or be shot.

 

But thankfully, it was all voice acted!

 

LOL.. ^^This.

 

Also, without giving away too much, there's an instance in the Sith Warrior campaign where a companion betrays you. Yet you don't have the choice to kill him/her. You're pretty much forced to allow them back into your crew.

[Nerdwing]

You were expecting perhaps the option to say whatever you wanted and for Kaliyo to respond intelligently in real time? No themepark game is going to have true freedom in regards to choices and how it pans out. It's one big massive decision true, where if-else statements are piled on upon yet more if-else statements.

 

If you want to tell an NPC to get bent and have it react realistically, then you need another person on the other end somewhere. For what the game is, I'm fine with it. If I wanted something beyond that, I'd be playing pen & paper.

 

Why? Why do they have to be on the other end? She's a pre-written NPC, she could be pre-written to reply to you telling her to go f*ck herself. Instead, you're given the 3 choices of "Grrr im so mad welcome back" "Welcome back" and "I missed ya welcome back"

 

Why no "Go away"?

[Viera]

I really love Star Wars and in the beginning, I thought everyone on the forums was WRONG and SWTOR was the best thing ever. I've been trying to love SWTOR but the problem is the story and linearity, plus BORING QUEST COMBAT. You simply must do story quests in order, and EVERY non-story quest is too easy at the level you can do it, and you can't simply take on higher level (non-story) quests for a challenge because they are "greyed out".

 

Honestly, I want to die sometimes from a big challenge. Or I want to take on a challenge and succeed and get some item that's powerful for my level. I want to be able to CHOOSE what challenges I take on, not forced into quest lines that are easy and boring.

 

In the end, I feel like I'm watching a movie where I'm forced to move the main character without freedom of choice...."I HAVE to run him here"....and I have to choose dialogue that makes NO difference to the plot... HENCE IT'S BORING.

 

What I've found myself doing is following a story I have no impact on - in the order prescribed - and the experience is dull.

 

Even the lightside/darkside choices are not a true CHOICE in that you're forced to follow one path or the other for corresponding items.

 

No two ways about it, this is an MMO on rails - instead of the "rail driven shooter" it's a rail driven MMO. These rails even hamper grouping while leveling because other friends / players will either be behind you or ahead of you in the prescribed order you can do quests. It's been difficult to find someone on the exact quest I'm on, so that we can group together and complete the story line and side quests together - frankly it's happened about once in 25 levels.

 

I must compare it to WoW in that, in WoW, you had different ways to level and different zones etc. You could choose where to go and when, with whom, and how to level... you could grind, or you could quest, or even just PVP, or do some combination thereof. You could choose the zones to go to... bored with helping the elves Ashenvale? Head to another zone of your choice. DO WHATEVER YOU FEEL LIKE.

 

That's the difference. You can't do whatever you feel like in SWTOR, you're confined.

 

In the endgame of WoW, you had a character who saved X Village, who rescued the damsel XXX and defeated the evil Zs. I never even killed the Lich King, nor was I forced to, in order to advance. The point is, not everyone had the same experience or story! You could skip whole areas to level in another of your preference. You created your own story and your own adventure. In SWTOR, everyone of your class has the SAME experience and story. And this is a huge negative.

 

Sorry, but simply choosing abilities does not make a game an RPG. In an RPG, you need freedom of choice so your character has his own background and story that's not the same as everyone else.

 

Last night I completed the Nar Shadaa quests for my Sith Inquisitor, and I was given the option to go to Tatooine or Alderaan for my next series of quests. The choice was false. I figured I'll go to the higher level planet of Alderaan because thus far I've been bored by going to the planet for my corresponding level, and thus I know I'd be bored by the quests on Tatooine. Well, here's the problem, instead of letting me make this choice, in Alderaan the quests were greyed out, so my only "choice" is to go to Tatooine - which I have no interest in doing because the quests are sure to be BORING because the designers are dictating that I can only do such and such at this level - it's easy and boring mind you - so that's just a terrible decision in how the quests (and corresponding character adventure) are forced upon you.

 

For the record, I will keep playing SWTOR but in smaller increments, and enjoying it for what it is, instead of what it should have been/ could be / what I wished it to be.

 

Except you're wrong and there are choices. I have made dialogue choices which have resulted in different outcomes, experienced things differently from my friends for those choices. I have had no trouble grouping up with people or even finding people on the same quest as I am.

 

For that matter, on my Sith Juggernaut I have played with my girlfriend since level 1. She is a Sith Inquisitor. We have skipped entire zones and sections of planets because we managed to out level them and didn't feel the need to keep going. I was able to leave Alderann before I even finished most of the side quests, same with Tatooine.

 

Level via PvP? Yep. On my trooper I leveled from 10 to 14 doing basically nothing but PvP Warzones. Really, none of your complaints exist.

[Aloro]

"You can change paths..."

 

Oh, so instead of picking every light side option, I can now pick every dark side option?

 

Or, just a thought... you could just pick the options that appeal to you, or for that matter you could pick the options that you imagine your character would pick. People call that "roleplaying". It doesn't appeal to everyone but some people quite enjoy it.

 

You're deliberately putting blinders on yourself then complaining about tunnel vision.

[Quaade]

You can't have an "impact" on the world if it's going to undercut someone else's opportunity to experience the same content. They're paying the same as you; why shouldn't they get to kill the same bosses as you?

 

 

Yes you can, if TOR used the same phasing technology as Blizzard, none of the quests would be "one time only" and you would still see the world change according to your actions.

 

It would be more satisfying than being told you changed things when you can take two steps back where you came from and see nothing has happened.

 

Sure, you get told a great deal many times you have driven the Rakghouls back across Taris, the moment you leave the main city, you still run into the very same Rakghouls as when you arrived.

If there was a few proper phasings instead of just phases, those area could be free of Rakghouls and in the process of being rebuilt.

[abishe]

Or, just a thought... you could just pick the options that appeal to you, or for that matter you could pick the options that you imagine your character would pick. People call that "roleplaying". It doesn't appeal to everyone but some people quite enjoy it.

 

You're deliberately putting blinders on yourself then complaining about tunnel vision.

 

you do know, picking a off the road choose, ones set is dubble penalty?

-50=-100.

10.000 side points is a lot mate, if you not start early choose a side you will never make 10.000 at the end of the line.

[UKAlderon]

OP actually makes a really good point. Of course the legions of blind fanboys rush to take up arms once again but he's right.

 

Previous Bioware single-player RPGs gave the player much more of a feeling of true choice, even if it was actually thickly-veiled illusion. In SW:ToR there is not even the slightest attempt at disguising the lack of choice.

 

It feels to me as though they spent all that time going on about what a great story they had and 'oh look at our expensive voice-actors' that they forgot to make a game around it.

 

I'm still having fun in-game but it's nothing to do with the much-vaulted 'story.' I just farm warzones, stomping the so-called 'overpowered' Imperials.

 

I wasn't even actually intending to play this game, I'm waiting for GW2 and TSW but lack of anything else to waste time on combined with curiousity made me buy the standard edition at launch. (So you can't tell me to 'go back to WoW.' I never came from there to begin with.)

[sebbulba]

Why? Why do they have to be on the other end? She's a pre-written NPC, she could be pre-written to reply to you telling her to go f*ck herself. Instead, you're given the 3 choices of "Grrr im so mad welcome back" "Welcome back" and "I missed ya welcome back"

 

Why no "Go away"?

 

I'd love to see the dozens of thousands of threads people QQing about wanting back the companions which they sent away.

 

I see the OP's point, I'm not too eager to make an alt on the same faction too soon, because I have to do the same planets in the same order.

 

They could have added some smaller planets without class quests, just to fill the gap between the class quests on the different planets so if you're not in to nar shadaa, you just go through your class quest and can enjoy a planet storyline on dantooine for instance.

[LoL-K-Noob]

Welcome to your first themepark MMO

[Nerdwing]

I'd love to see the dozens of thousands of threads people QQing about wanting back the companions which they sent away.

 

Same, I'd find it hilarious. Hackers wouldnt steal accounts anymore, they'd just dismiss your companions.

 

Now -THATS- revolutionary.

[Bulivyf]

Same, I'd find it hilarious. Hackers wouldnt steal accounts anymore, they'd just dismiss your companions.

 

Now -THATS- revolutionary.

 

nice avatar, ur the pilot of a CRY-Fighter............

 

[Veala]

I am not dismissing the class quests.

 

Since IME side quests are probably 50% of my total quests, all "8 different story lines" actually happen on the same zones and with at least a 50% overlap of side quests. Why do you not say for everyone to read that from level 10 you will have to be on the same planets as everyone else, no matter what class and from there on? You will essentiually be questing at the same zones no matter what class they are, and their "own, independent, unique" story is like 50% of the total quests.

 

So much about "you can do it 8 times and it is unique". Rubbish.

 

However my point which somehow you missed, maybe I am not explaining well, is that you are on rails having to be at specific zones at specific times. You have no choice. What if at level 10 I do not fancy going to Coruscant because it is a silly place. What if at level 16 I really do not like Taris and at 20 I simply hate Nar Shaddaa. No choice.

 

If I have levelled one toon, and start another one. Is there any possible way I can avoid Coruscant, Taris, Nar Shaddaa in this order? No. Where is the uniqueness then.

 

Not only this game is on rails, they also happen to be the same rails regardless what class you are.

 

So let me get this straight. You just agreed that every time you roll a new class, 50% of the content you see will be a fairly engaging story that you have never seen before? Let that sink in. Half of the quest content you see when you start a new class is totally new, every time, whether it's your second character or your eigth. Yet somehow this is inferior to getting to decide if you want to kill 10 tigers in a forest or 10 crocdiles in a swamp at level 20?

 

If the aesthetics of the zones are that important to you, then yeah, you can call that a problem if you want. I personally place a lot more value on seeing new story content than I do on what the environment I'm in looks like. I'm one of those guys who reads the quest log in WoW so that I know what's going on =p

 

I don't like Balmorra. So I went to Balmorra, did my class quest (which I enjoyed thoroughly and the ending was hilarious) and maybe 3 side quests. Then I leveled up the rest of the way to 20 from Hammer Station and PvP. There are still 3 group quests on Balmorra that I haven't done yet for my next character (which are a ton of xp), and there's always space missions. See? Options.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Veala

[JackKetch]

Elder scrolls are much the same - I don't know what you're talking about. You can kill whoever you want in Elder Scrolls, steal from whoever you want...

 

Gotta call BS on this.

First there are several characters that only get knocked unconscious for a few seconds when you try to kill them.

 

Second, there is only one type of choice in Elder Scrolls: In what order do you want to do these linear quests we've created for you?

Want to do assassin guild first? Sure, but don't expect any Impact.

After being master assassin in a guild with ties to the thief guild, go back to join the thief guild and find you're treated just like a beggar off the streets.

 

All the other perceived choices are just fluff. Nothing stops me from randomly killing meaningless NPCs in this game either, sure they aren't my own town's guards, but so what?

 

Choice is hard to do, and any story based game won't have it.

Only exception I've even heard of is Way of the Samurai to some extent

The cost of a game with story that had choice and impact?

A game that lasted 30 mins per replay, although apparently with high replay value.

 

But lets be honest, soon as an top tier MMO releases with choice instead of linear story, everyone will complain its too grindy.

 

All you can do is keep a good attitude and try to enjoy a game for what it does have, not what it doesn't.

[Catablepas]

Choice is an illusion in real life too.

 

The universe follows deterministic principals. You are destined to make whatever choices you make. Therefore there really is no choice.

 

Billions of little factors may influence you, from traumatic chilbirth to what you had for lunch, but that doesn't make it any less deterministic.

 

Computers generate random numbers by measuring voltages. There is no randomness, only virtual randomness.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Catablepas

[Aloro]

Other than doing the quests needed to get your ship, which seems to be necessary to go anywhere, can anyone confirm you're locked/gated to other content unless you do your class quests? If I want to do nothing more than PVP, fly space missions, and land on random planets and kill random mobs solely for the kill XP, is there any reason to think I couldn't hit level cap?

 

No, there is not. Once you get your ship (generally lvl 14-18) you're free to go anywhere in the galaxy and do whatever you want. You have, at that point, all the freedom that any player in WoW has. You can just do what's fun for you - all space missions, all the time? Sure. Nothing but PvP? Go for it. Want to just grind mobs in one zone after another till you hit 50? Nobody and nothing will stop you.

 

So what's the meaningful difference between those games, in terms of content availability? WoW's had expansions, and SWTOR hasn't yet. In time, there will be more planets, which means more options at any given level range.

[PaxFelix]

In SWTOR, you must do class quests in order and the side quests are given in order along with the story line quests. You can ONLY do the side quests that are currently open to your level and position in your classes story line that you're currently at, or those that were opened in the past during your story line.

 

You cannot jump ahead or to the side. For example, if you finish Nar Shadaa at level 27, you still have to go to Tatooine (lvl 24-28) you cannot skip Tatooine and go to Alderaan (lvl 28-32). Let's say you go to Tatooine and only work on side quests and get to level 32 doing side quests and killing mobs - you still need to go back and do some easy lame story quests designed for level 24s in order to proceed. This story will give you little/no exp but you're forced to do it in order to open up the next phase of the story, the next planets, the next side quests.

 

Someone tell me - am I wrong?

 

Gee. The game has been live for a whopping 26 days (counting early access), not even a month. Do you think there might be some content added somewhere along the way in times to come?

 

A personality disordered person once said to me, "Immediate gratification is too slow. Anyone who knows me should know what I'm going to want even before I realize I do," and she was quite serious.

 

Now, you're not that extreme, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but, like, really?

[FalconDroid]

Go outside OP. Try real life the MMO. You can kiss girls or go to bed sad. There's some story arcs you can control!

[UKAlderon]

Choice is an illusion in real life too.

 

The universe follows deterministic principals. You are destined to make whatever choices you make. Therefore there really is no choice.

 

Billions of little factors may influence you, from traumatic chilbirth to what you had for lunch, but that doesn't make it any less deterministic.

 

Computers generate random numbers by measuring voltages. There is no randomness, only virtual randomness.

 

Your attempt to appear enlightened and intelligent just failed.

 

Choice is what defines us as being alive and concious, you can deny that but it's a base truth of existance.

[Aloro]

you do know, picking a off the road choose, ones set is dubble penalty?

-50=-100.

10.000 side points is a lot mate, if you not start early choose a side you will never make 10.000 at the end of the line.

 

So you have to make several choices. First, do you care more about roleplaying or about mechanics? Once you've decided on that, you can decide to go all light, all dark, or some of each, depending on your goals and preferences.

 

The fact is, there are people in this very thread who haven't gone all light or all dark. Therefore it's clearly a choice. You might not see that choice as desirable, and fair enough; that likely means you don't care about the roleplaying and care instead about the mechanics. You're still left with a meaningful choice though; commit one way, commit the other, or wait for the neutral relics?