LFG Tool is NOT Needed

[Kurnea]

Figures. You were a crusader for mediocrity then, and it would appear that you haven't changed.

 

Must have made an impression on you. I'll admit, I greatly enjoyed ripping into whiners on the WoW forums, or just about anyone using bad arguments and logic.

P.S. There are probably hundreds of things people could ask for that "wouldn't affect the gameplay of others" but they would be contrary to the goal, purpose or spirit of the game. Doesn't make any of those things anymore "right" than this.

 

If it's a positive for some and doesn't affect the gameplay of others, I don't see the harm. Unless, of course, you're one of those people that worry more about how other people are playing the game than they're own enjoyment. Let me guess, on the WoW forums you were one of those that would go on about how other people play the game should matter to everyone else?

[Taroen]

If that were true, the game would've been dead long before Cataclysm, since the game was super easy from the start of Wrath. Instead a 7 year old game has continued to hold millions of subscribers when every contender to date has barely gotten a fraction.

 

Plus, I've played plenty of games where gear was easily obtained and easily replaced, and still had fun. Take any Fallout game, gear is obtained fairly easily when you know where it is, and I still love having 'That Gun' or a 'Lincoln's Repeater'. For the most part I play mmos like this because I enjoy the content.

 

I never managed to get too into Fallout. I know a lot of people like it, and I own it, but I never got very far before something else pulled me away, unfortunately. Ironically, I think it was WoW, at the time.

 

But WoW just keeps dumbing it down. And that's the problem. Sure, it was super easy from the start of Wrath, and it became even easier and even easier. Even Blizzard originally saw an issue with that, and they went out of their way to bring back some content that required cooperation with the Cata release. But the casual faceroll crowd wasn't able to handle it and they cried, so now it's all easier than ever. As far as group participation goes, no one ever really talks and people have every incentive in the world to be as ugly as humans can be. You might as well be running the content with NPCs.

 

The NPCs would probably be better at the game, anyway.

[savagepotato]

Must have made an impression on you. I'll admit, I greatly enjoyed ripping into whiners on the WoW forums, or just about anyone using bad arguments and logic.

 

 

If it's a positive for some and doesn't affect the gameplay of others, I don't see the harm. Unless, of course, you're one of those people that worry more about how other people are playing the game than they're own enjoyment. Let me guess, on the WoW forums you were one of those that would go on about how other people play the game should matter to everyone else?

 

It makes me shake my head every time someone comes in and says it doesn't affect the gameplay of others.

 

It has been outlined thoroughly that it affects everyone, and it is so painfully obvious in which ways it degrades the game, that it is honestly something I would put on par with listening to someone deny the existence of oxygen over and over again because they cannot see it.

Edited January 11, 2012 by savagepotato

[Taroen]

There is nothing anti-social about spamming the chat channel. You still get into group and you still have to talk to people. Spamming is my last attempt when all else has failed. I can get groups, just not efficiently or effectively or even consistently. Starting a reply with an insult...nice one.

 

Didn't you already reply to that post..?

 

0.o

 

And again, I wasn't just tossing out insults to flame you. I was telling the truth.

 

He told you to TALK to people. You interpretted that as him telling you to spam them in whispers. Not quite the same thing, and it's anti-social to see it the way you did.

[maradigamer]

/sigh

 

Was is the "it won't affect your gameplay" the fallback argument for silly things?

 

And again I ask: How will it negatively impact your game play if the rest of us have a LFG option? And since it in no way will harm your gameplay, why are you against this incredibly convenient option?

[savagepotato]

And again I ask: How will it negatively impact your game play if the rest of us have a LFG option? And since it in no way will harm your gameplay, why are you against this incredibly convenient option?

 

It's honestly like watching a record skip over and over again.

 

How many times does this have to be explained so you can denounce it and ignore the answer AGAIN and again...

 

You know what, NO, get off your ***, go back through the thread and read it for yourself. Too many people have explained it too many times.

Edited January 11, 2012 by savagepotato

[Halbe]

It makes me shake my head every time someone comes in and says it doesn't affect the gameplay of others.

 

It has been outlined so unbelievably thoroughly that affects everyone, and it is so painfully obvious in which ways it degrades a game, that it is honestly something I would put on par with listening to someone deny the existence of oxygen over and over again because they cannot see it.

 

It has no bearing on a server-only LFG tool. Not one of the reasons given have been anything but a deductive fallacy.

 

Wow had it. Communities in WoW suck. All LFG tools are bad.

[SlickDevlan]

Must have made an impression on you. I'll admit, I greatly enjoyed ripping into whiners on the WoW forums, or just about anyone using bad arguments and logic.

 

 

If it's a positive for some and doesn't affect the gameplay of others, I don't see the harm. Unless, of course, you're one of those people that worry more about how other people are playing the game than they're own enjoyment. Let me guess, on the WoW forums you were one of those that would go on about how other people play the game should matter to everyone else?

 

It seems to me that you just made a plausible argument for your cheating being OK as long as it doesn't affect me... (yes I know, this wouldn't actually be cheating but the premise is the same).

 

No, my point was always that the point of the game precluded all of the "convenience" or "quality of life" aspects that you people seem to need. I also often wondered why so many people find that playing the game was too onerous and time consuming and how it got in the way of playing the game. Thus was born... LFD with 4 random NPCs to assist you in your gear farming, the 15 minute 5 man of faceroll, dual spec, the rotating content nerfs and a myriad of other options that turned WoW into the Kwiky Mart of MMOs and was 100% ADHD compliant.

[maradigamer]

It's honestly like watching a record skip over and over again.

 

How many times does this have to be explained so you can denounce it and ignore the answer AGAIN and again...

 

You know what, NO, get off your ***, go back through the thread and read it for yourself. Too many people have explained it too many times.

 

No one has explained it to me at all. If you only run with a guild, it won't affect you, so why do you care?

[savagepotato]

It has no bearing on a server-only LFG tool. Not one of the reasons given have been anything but a deductive fallacy.

 

Wow had it. Communities in WoW suck. All LFG tools are bad.

 

Thank you for your massive oversimplification of the topic.

 

It's the same thing over and over and over again. You people keep falling back on this false point over and over while ignoring and denouncing the valid reasons and evidence you are given.

 

It's like watching this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPBhFdlGupU

[Kurnea]

I never managed to get too into Fallout. I know a lot of people like it, and I own it, but I never got very far before something else pulled me away, unfortunately. Ironically, I think it was WoW, at the time.

 

Fallout's but one example, there have been lots of games I've played where I got certain items or gear easily enough, and still thought it was cool to have that gear.

 

I personally don't value 'items' in a game because of the challenge. I sometimes value items, and I often like challenge, but the two aren't neccesarily linked. There have been cool game items I have gotten for doing almost nothing that I enjoyed. Likewise, there have been challenges I have enjoyed in games where I got absolutely nothing.

But WoW just keeps dumbing it down. And that's the problem. Sure, it was super easy from the start of Wrath, and it became even easier and even easier.

Even Blizzard originally saw an issue with that, and they went out of their way to bring back some content that required cooperation with the Cata release. But the casual faceroll crowd wasn't able to handle it and they cried, so now it's all easier than ever. As far as group participation goes, no one ever really talks and people have every incentive in the world to be as ugly as humans can be. You might as well be running the content with NPCs.

 

The NPCs would probably be better at the game, anyway.

 

The faceroll crowd wasn't able to handle it and started to leave was the problem. The difference I've noticed with casuals and hardcores is that while both whine, casuals are more prone to leaving if they're not satisfied.

 

That said, I found there was always difficult content in Cata, especially in regards to heroics. Did you ever try out heroic Firelands? It made for some challenging content. Unforutnately I left before really trying out Dragon Soul, but I understand the heroic content for that is also challenging.

 

Going back to the main point, I don't recall any sudden surge in subscriptions when Cataclysm raids where initially hard. Personally I was able to handle the normal raids well enough, but others seemed to disagree.

[Taroen]

And again I ask: How will it negatively impact your game play if the rest of us have a LFG option? And since it in no way will harm your gameplay, why are you against this incredibly convenient option?

 

For the umpteenth time...

 

When the game's main system for forming groups is to toss together a group of random people and drop them into an instance, then the content needs to be tuned to that, or they will fail nearly all of the time.

 

Dumbing down the content affects EVERYONE.

 

Not all content should be completable by that little random group that is wearing all of the wrong gear for their class, stands in fire and expects the healer to deal with it, doesn't understand the concept of crowd control, refuses to focus fire, spams the same ability over and over, and body pulls extra mobs onto the group when they're fighting another set because they weren't paying attention to a patrol.

[Halbe]

Thank you for your massive oversimplification of the topic.

 

It's the same thing over and over and over again. You people keep falling back on this false point over and over while ignoring and denouncing the valid reasons and evidence you are given.

 

It's like watching this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPBhFdlGupU

 

No, it actually is that simple.

 

You've failed to associate a single server LFG tool with the current "problems" you say exist because of them.

 

Instead, you jsut say they exist.

 

I feel like I'm in Church.

[savagepotato]

No one has explained it to me at all. If you only run with a guild, it won't affect you, so why do you care?

 

No one has to explain it to you directly.

 

You know how to read yes? there are over 60 pages in this thread with the concept being explained a ridiculous number of times over and over again only to have the next person like you pop in and say.

 

"durh but it doesn't affect your gameplay."

 

I've followed this thread yesterday and today, and I've seen people explain it flawlessly and so much better than I ever could only for the next idiot to pop in and say "nope, not valid, cause I say so, doesn't affect you."

 

It's like watching someone kick someone in the crotch over and over and tell them it doesn't hurt, they are imagining it.

Edited January 11, 2012 by savagepotato

[LordAposno]

He told you to go meet more people and TALK them, and you interpretted it as him telling you to spam people in whispers. I'm sorry, but that's anti-social. It wasn't to belittle you or insult you out of hand, it was just the truth.

 

And the fact of the matter is that if you don't know enough people in the game to run the content, then you need to meet more people that like to do the same things you like to do.

 

That said... I would still be very much in favor of an instance finder for pre-50 content, and maybe even for the normal flashpoints. That would be a GOOD thing for the game, because levelling content is always going to be harder to find groups, and getting to do that stuff gets people involved with each other, even if they got dropped in randomly.

 

Most of my posts here have been directed at the crowd that is upset that they can't instantly get a random group for level 50 hardmodes and faceroll them.

 

 

 

At least we agree on two things. One, I need LFG group for pre-50 content. At 50 with my guild I should not have any issues finding groups at end game. I have no desire at the moment for a level 50 hardmode LFG tool.

 

Two we both love this game and want it to be successful. Everyone on this thread is very passionate about this issue and the game itself. I really hope that the plagues of other games do not come here, but I think BW is committed to making the best game possible without ruining content for anyone.

[Kurnea]

It makes me shake my head every time someone comes in and says it doesn't affect the gameplay of others.

 

It has been outlined thoroughly that it affects everyone, and it is so painfully obvious in which ways it degrades the game, that it is honestly something I would put on par with listening to someone deny the existence of oxygen over and over again because they cannot see it.

 

Seems that every time someone asks to point out how the direct relationship between lfg tools and a bad game is 'obvious', time and time again we just keep seeing correlations and assumptions. "Well, it happened in WoW, and WoW degraded, so they must be related!" And then when someone calls out the obvious deductive fallacies, we see responses like 'Well this is just silly'.

[maradigamer]

For the umpteenth time...

 

When the game's main system for forming groups is to toss together a group of random people and drop them into an instance, then the content needs to be tuned to that, or they will fail nearly all of the time.

 

Dumbing down the content affects EVERYONE.

 

Not all content should be completable by that little random group that is wearing all of the wrong gear for their class, stands in fire and expects the healer to deal with it, doesn't understand the concept of crowd control, refuses to focus fire, spams the same ability over and over, and body pulls extra mobs onto the group when they're fighting another set because they weren't paying attention to a patrol.

 

All right, that has some validity. Here is the solution:

 

Forget about gear reliance to complete instances, because gear reliance shouldn't be the factor unless everyone is wearing greens 10 levels below their character level.

 

As for the rest, they could just refuse to dumb it down. PUGs are welcome to fail until they learn the mysteries of good CC, heals, and tanking. Let them learn, or let them join a guild that will teach them if they can't learn on their own, or let them keep crying and failing.

[savagepotato]

Seems that every time someone asks to point out how the direct relationship between lfg tools and a bad game is 'obvious', time and time again we just keep seeing correlations and assumptions. "Well, it happened in WoW, and WoW degraded, so they must be related!" And then when someone calls out the obvious deductive fallacies, we see responses like 'Well this is just silly'.

 

The connection is obvious to anyone who isn't avoiding seeing it simply to push their own agenda.

 

And it has been illustrated very clearly by many people in this thread already.

Edited January 11, 2012 by savagepotato

[devandarkmoon]

Join a guild?

Make some friends in the real world that you can play SWTOR with?

 

That way you don't have to sit around waiting for some random person to group with.

Simple solution to a simple problem.

 

this!

[LordAposno]

I don't feel anyone should have a sense of entitlement that they should always be guaranteed to be able to find a group immediately for anything their heart desires. There should be effort involved in doing this in a social game.

 

So you can't always find a group for what you want to do within your guild. So what. You don't get to run the flashpoint you are looking for tonight, and I don't think that's a problem. I don't feel a solution is taking it to the extreme like WoW did with the cross server tool.

 

I could get behind a tool like what City of Heroes had when I played it. Or as someone has mentioned the old WoW tool where you could specify your class, what you were looking for, and be searched quickly and reliably.

 

Any solution for finding a group more efficiently should encourage doing it through social means. Not simply jam the first 4 people it can find together and instant port them in for a 15 minute smash and grab.

 

 

As a paying customer yes I am entitled to play anything I want in this game, period. Finding a group should not be a mini game. I should be able to find a group effortlessly. The content of the game itself should be challenging, finding the group should not.

[Kurnea]

The connection is obvious to anyone who isn't avoiding seeing it simply to push their own agenda.

 

Humor me. Logically explain your reasoning without assumptions or simple correlations. Otherwise why are you continuing to respond if you don't care to contribute to the conversation?

[Halbe]

Seems that every time someone asks to point out how the direct relationship between lfg tools and a bad game is 'obvious', time and time again we just keep seeing correlations and assumptions. "Well, it happened in WoW, and WoW degraded, so they must be related!" And then when someone calls out the obvious deductive fallacies, we see responses like 'Well this is just silly'.

 

Exactly.

 

These are former WoW players we're dealing with, and I'm guessing WoW is the only game they've ever played.

 

Because, if they had some exposure outside of WoW, they could look at a game like EQ2 and it's LFG finder.

 

Guess what, a lot of people hate it. But guess what they didn't do? Dummy down the content.

 

THAT'S RIGHT! CONTENT IS STILL HARD! IF YOU AREN'T GEARED, YOU CAN'T DO IT (Hi to you Velious)!

 

And guess what else? People STILL FIND GROUPS OUTSIDE OF IT!

 

Holy heck, it's true! Most players don't use it. But it's there if you want it.

 

Seriously, go ask. Go play. Go find out what life outside of WoW is like.

 

WoW isn't the only game ever created, and it isn't the only way to do things.

 

Edit: Oh, and to kill that other li...I mean assumption, the communities in EQ2, while small, are some of the best I've played in.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Halbe

[LordAposno]

Didn't you already reply to that post..?

 

0.o

 

And again, I wasn't just tossing out insults to flame you. I was telling the truth.

 

He told you to TALK to people. You interpretted that as him telling you to spam them in whispers. Not quite the same thing, and it's anti-social to see it the way you did.

 

 

Oops. yes I did. Not truth your opinion.

[savagepotato]

As a paying customer yes I am entitled to play anything I want in this game, period. Finding a group should not be a mini game. I should be able to find a group effortlessly. The content of the game itself should be challenging, finding the group should not.

 

You are not entitled to anything other than to play. You are not entitled to have a group on tap for you ready to go at all times. I'm sorry it is a multiplayer game. You are describing a single player game.

[Taroen]

Fallout's but one example, there have been lots of games I've played where I got certain items or gear easily enough, and still thought it was cool to have that gear.

 

I personally don't value 'items' in a game because of the challenge. I sometimes value items, and I often like challenge, but the two aren't neccesarily linked. There have been cool game items I have gotten for doing almost nothing that I enjoyed. Likewise, there have been challenges I have enjoyed in games where I got absolutely nothing.

 

 

The faceroll crowd wasn't able to handle it and started to leave was the problem. The difference I've noticed with casuals and hardcores is that while both whine, casuals are more prone to leaving if they're not satisfied.

 

That said, I found there was always difficult content in Cata, especially in regards to heroics. Did you ever try out heroic Firelands? It made for some challenging content. Unforutnately I left before really trying out Dragon Soul, but I understand the heroic content for that is also challenging.

 

Going back to the main point, I don't recall any sudden surge in subscriptions when Cataclysm raids where initially hard. Personally I was able to handle the normal raids well enough, but others seemed to disagree.

 

While I agree with the first thing that I highlighted, I have no idea where you're coming from with the second. There's no evidence that they were actually leaving, and, as with all expansions, there was an actual spike in subs at the time. They were whining to high heaven, that's for sure, and since you spent a lot of time in the forums, I'm sure you know that. But actually leaving..? I'm sure a lot said they would, but I bet they didn't.

 

And if Blizzard had stuck to their guns then the people who had forgotten how to play in WoTLK (or never knew how), would have picked up their game and learned.

 

I left the game shortly before Firelands was released. They gave me 7 free days (coincidentally...?) right before Star Wars launched, and I installed the game, but I couldn't bring myself to actually play it. I just couldn't push myself to be interested in it anymore. There have been times when I stopped playing WoW and thought I would never go back, but this last time I know I never will now.