Jswizzle Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You should actually research what games use unreal engine because the top mmo's in dev right now are using it lol. Aion uses cry engine and I could pvp with hundreds literally HUNDREDS of people on my screen with everything cranked and it was smooth as silk. You have no clue what you are talking about at all. Top mmos in development? Whoa sorry. I stand corrected. I understand how design works. If unreal was so slick, it would be commonly used. It's not. Designers shy away from it for using it in MMOs for a reason. Never said it wouldn't work, just that it would probably be more trouble than it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 No Developer uses a stock engine. Every engine used by developers becomes custom. It's no different with the Hero engine. There's a reason that games that use the Unreal engine don't operate the same or look the same as the Unreal games. The Hero engine is just a base. There are no limitations because of it since they can just add coding tools as they see fit. This is true but when you choose to shape something from a dog turd it still will taste like a dog turd even after you made it into something else. Choosing a bad code base to shape up was their mistake. In this case hero engine. You dont see the mmo's with cry engine or unreal or custom house engines suffering these issues now do you lol. I mean really compare swtor to up coming 2012 mmos and mmos released in the last 5 years. And honestly ask yourself does this feel like a 2012 game. because it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThanosTitan Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Top mmos in development? Whoa sorry. I stand corrected. I understand how design works. If unreal was so slick, it would be commonly used. It's not. Designers shy away from it for using it in MMOs for a reason. Never said it wouldn't work, just that it would probably be more trouble than it's worth. DC Universe is unreal 3, way smoother, actually in hi res, and packs alot more innovative ideas into the genre, and is all voice acted, and free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Top mmos in development? Whoa sorry. I stand corrected. I understand how design works. If unreal was so slick, it would be commonly used. It's not. Designers shy away from it for using it in MMOs for a reason. Never said it wouldn't work, just that it would probably be more trouble than it's worth. Well guess they are wrong then because guess what bioware shy'd away as you say and their game looks like something from 2005 *shrug* Oh and its litered with FPS bugs, slow downs, lag with players, and bad graphics but no your right hero engine is tops bioware devs just suck and after 7 years couldn't create optimized code. I see what your saying now totally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jswizzle Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 This is true but when you choose to shape something from a dog turd it still will taste like a dog turd even after you made it into something else. Choosing a bad code base to shape up was their mistake. In this case hero engine. You dont see the mmo's with cry engine or unreal or custom house engines suffering these issues now do you lol. I mean really compare swtor to up coming 2012 mmos and mmos released in the last 5 years. And honestly ask yourself does this feel like a 2012 game. because it doesn't. LOL does the new call of duty feel like a 2012 game? It's been virtually the same technology for years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXcronicXx Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Folks, engines are a lot more complex than how you are looking at them. Most of what you SEE from a game engine is just additional modules. Graphics, game mechanics, etc are generally rooted from additions to the engine and is not a sign of the engine itself. Now of course there are certain limitations and the like based on the engine, but it doesn't dictate 'WoW graphics' vs 'some other graphics'. DAoC was very realistic in art style for its time period, while WAR was done in a much more severe extreme style that came off a bit more cartoony, yet they were both made on the same Gambryo engine. Engines are like the science of Physics....it defines a foundation and parameters, but there there is ALOT that can be done within those rules. BW didn't buy Hero Engine, the 'complete game in a box', they got a functional core to build on. This ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 LOL does the new call of duty feel like a 2012 game? It's been virtually the same technology for years And your point? They aren't subbed based they aren't even the same genre lol. They dont have to rely on their game supporting thousands on a single server. Compare apples to apples because you argument is moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedipwnsauce Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) some of the up and coming asian MMO's that are on the horizon are using the Unreal engine 3 with spectacular graphical results and are two standout examples. Its baffling to me why this game launched in 2011 looking worse than another heavily instanced MMO that never allowed too many players in one phase-Age of Conan, that game came out in 2008 and supports dx 11 and has yet to be matched in graphical fidelity by any MMO since. Edited January 16, 2012 by Jedipwnsauce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyvortex Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 One word: profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranid Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 They chose the hero engine because it was heavily instanced. That is how all the story quest are handled. So it basically met their needs in this regard. But this engine has be modified so much that it isn't the same engine that they started with. As for the better graphics. Graphics are a choice. They chose a style they wanted. They weren't going for realism as this is a Sci-fi fantasy game not reality. Watch some of the developer documentaries and they explain why they did things the way they did. If you have a problem with the design of this game then this is probably not the game you are looking for. Move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jswizzle Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And your point? They aren't subbed based they aren't even the same genre lol. They dont have to rely on their game supporting thousands on a single server. Compare apples to apples because you argument is moot. Haha you brought up Unreal I think. My asking if the latest Unreal games feel like something new seems like a valid argument to me. The point is you are expecting too much if you don't like the Hero engine. From my perspective and level designers I know we have no problems. My buddy works for ID software. He did the first part of a game called "Rage" maybe you heard of it. He praised the design of TOR constantly on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Once they get the high-res textures for character models working to their satisfaction (too many processing issues in high pop areas atm), then none of these "graphics are turds" comments will apply anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 No Developer uses a stock engine. Every engine used by developers becomes custom. It's no different with the Hero engine. There's a reason that games that use the Unreal engine don't operate the same or look the same as the Unreal games. The Hero engine is just a base. There are no limitations because of it since they can just add coding tools as they see fit. Then the devs are just bad. Because stephen himself said they had engine limitations which is why some features weren't implemented so that debunks that right there. I setup hero engine on my system and have an account setup with their cloud service just to see if I could recreate what swtor looks like and guess what I could. They are using very low settings on everything in this game. And the reason is because anything higher is to hard on systems. The reason its hard on systems is because the code is not good. My shadows on low in HE look just like the shadows in the engine lol like identical. Yes things are modified added or changed but from a graphical stand point they didn't modify anything from what I have seen. You think after 7 years of dev they couldn't shape the code to run smoothly and look good? I think it was more like 7 years of devs hitting their heads against a brick wall of limitations. because there are limitations with engines hence why new engines are build upon and developed. Like cry engine started at 1 now its on version three. I honestly think the devs have a very difficult time adapting and building on HE and I think the HE devs themselves are having trouble expanding their engines abilities. And from what I read on their forums people were very skeptical about them using HE for this project. But think what you will it doesn't change the fact that after 7 years and 80 million this game comes no where close to being technically up to date with other games coming out this year and in the past 5 years. when other mmo's have done better with less. Draw your own conclusions on that. And research it while your at it compare mmo's look at their dev times look at their budget then look at swtors and ask yourself why the game isn't running better/looking better. Ask yourself why a company like bioware coupled with 2 other major players produced such a sub par product compared to smaller starter companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 They chose the hero engine because it was heavily instanced. That is how all the story quest are handled. So it basically met their needs in this regard. But this engine has be modified so much that it isn't the same engine that they started with. As for the better graphics. Graphics are a choice. They chose a style they wanted. They weren't going for realism as this is a Sci-fi fantasy game not reality. Watch some of the developer documentaries and they explain why they did things the way they did. If you have a problem with the design of this game then this is probably not the game you are looking for. Move along. What mmo is reality. I can name several fantasy mmo's that have their own art style and look 100% better. Oh wait maybe blocky shadows and muddy textures was their intended art direction along with bad performance and abilitie lag am i right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloatHunter Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) BioWare. Bad Pathing. Synonyms since the days of Baldur's Gate your NPCs would travel half the map to move one inch... And you'd listen to "You must gather your party before venturing forth" forever... Honestly, the combat mechanics remind me ALOT of playing Baulders Gate with autoppause during combat rounds checked off. All the ability lag is just an improved initiave system! thats it! ( and to prevent hard counters to a certain extent thru collateral RnG "Hiya Its me, Mako!" Edited January 16, 2012 by SloatHunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Once they get the high-res textures for character models working to their satisfaction (too many processing issues in high pop areas atm), then none of these "graphics are turds" comments will apply anymore. Not for textures anyways, people will move on to the next graphical turd in swtor the awful shadowing that not only looks like crap but is a complete drain on the game lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraith Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 How long has the Hero Engine been around? Also, how long has tech like the Unreal Engine been around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) How long has the Hero Engine been around? Also, how long has tech like the Unreal Engine been around? Doesn't matter really. The should have picked the best engine for the customer not what engine makes it easier for them to pump out content and let them cut more corners with instancing lol. Because thats what they did. But what would you expect with EA behind the wheel money wise. Edited January 16, 2012 by Barracudastr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraith Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Doesn't matter really. The should have picked the best engine for the customer not what engine makes it easier for them to pump out content and let them cut more corners with instancing lol. Because thats what they did. But what would you expect with EA behind the wheel money wise. sure it matters. You stated you have been on the HE, when was it first released for design? Edited January 16, 2012 by Kraith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jswizzle Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Doesn't matter really. The should have picked the best engine for the customer not what engine makes it easier for them to pump out content and let them cut more corners with instancing lol. Because thats what they did. But what would you expect with EA behind the wheel money wise. LOL still waiting for you to go download the Hero Developers kit, Unreal DK, Source DK, or any other developer kit and do something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rykzon Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I dont think the engine is the problem at all. I'd say you could have given the best enginge to BW and they would have still ****ed this game up. I say this because this game has design fails as it has tech fails. To say "oh you see all those shiny lookin games with U2/3 Cryengine that run fine" is just dumb. Everytool is just as good as the man who handles it. Im pretty sure these companies could have dont that with the hero enginge too even if it wont be that shiny tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Doesn't matter really. The should have picked the best engine for the customer not what engine makes it easier for them to pump out content and let them cut more corners with instancing lol. That's what they did. They stated from the beginning that they wanted to go with an artstyle and graphics options that allowed even those people who couldn't afford monster PCs to play. Most games that use Unreal or Cry engines are designed for gaming rigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraith Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 In late 2007 - 2008, what were the engines of choice at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerrusPA Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 That's what they did. They stated from the beginning that they wanted to go with an artstyle and graphics options that allowed even those people who couldn't afford monster PCs to play. Most games that use Unreal or Cry engines are designed for gaming rigs. Except it still runs like crap, no matter the machine. So I'd wager they chose the Hero Engine, realized it wasn't very good halfway through developement and just went "Eh, nobody will notice." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabricated Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) General consensus on Hero Engine: +Great tools for content creation. Multiple people in different locations can simultaneously edit stuff live. Lots of good tech integrated. +Covers literally everything; backend, frontend, client, world building, scripting, shaders, etc. -The backend is apparently GARBAGE, the client also hasn't gotten many kind words. -The above is really important. This stuff from their website is even funnier. Emphasis added by me. Explains a LOT. http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/ “I need this,” said Gordon. “I am about to start a special project and these tools will let us build and prototype fast and get something running in a hurry.” Gordon is not an excitable guy by nature but this had his adrenaline flowing. “This is just what I need! I want to license your engine.” We had thought about offering our engine and tools to developers but we had expected that we would have to actually ship a game first, like Epic did with Unreal Tournament before they licensed the original Unreal Engine. “It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.” He didn’t care. “We are going to have tons of engineers. We can finish it ourselves. We’re going to want to modify your source code for our special project anyway.” lol, whatever we'll fix it when we got it! The Million Man Hour Myth itself is a myth! Edited January 16, 2012 by Fabricated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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