Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

[RJMazz]

BioWare would make my tanky a lot happier if they made Shields and Armor matter anything against other classes.

 

It would make a match against Operatives and it would make most... No, some people stop complaining about them.

 

And I'd be able to get the tank gear of course.

 

If this is not fixed and Dual Specs comes out I'll have only 2 specs. PvE tank and PvP DPS.

[Boarg]

Special attacks are a much much higher base rate to hit. Between all my toons I have little and most no +Accuracy and all are 97%-110% hit rates. Will take a look tonight.

 

"Special" is currently a very confusing and deceptive term in this game... People think if it's a button, it's a special. For about half the classes in this game, most of their main buttons actually do white damage instead of yellow.

 

All these weapon damage attacks do white damage and have the lower base hit chance.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Boarg

[pherball]

I stopped reading after you thought Scoundrels/Ops get an 8s stun.

 

-3s Knockdown (stun) from stealth; grants full resolve

-4s stun on 60s RUT (45s talented)

-8s Mez (breaks on damage); Scoundrel 90s / Operative 60s RUT

[YaaazBooGum]

If this is true, it HAS TO BE fixed. No wonder I feel so squishy when cds are not up

[Raving_Ravec]

As a champion geared sith juggernaut with plenty of warzone experience I can say that from my in-game experience I dispute your 'facts' and disagree with your opinion.

 

 

 

17k health fully geared? Don't make me laugh. If you're the best tank on Anchorhead then your server is a disgrace.

2/3 of your health gone in a single stun from a single person? Yeah I have a feeling you're mistaken about being fully geared or you're just full of ****.

 

Don't know what game you're playing mate. But pvp tank gear has less endurance then pve tank gear (iirc) asides from that, he's saying tank stats don't work against the vast majority of abilities in this game which means that he's just another dps with more health.

 

Most classes have abilities that dont get mitigated by anything that crit for 3-4k, and in a 4 second stun one could easily land 2-3 abilities hitting for that amount which means 9-12k dmg.

 

Maybe you should read better before posting junk like this.

[beliglath]

Well, lets count…classes that rely heavily on weapon damage:

 

Shadow/Assassin

Gunslinger/Sniper

Sentinel/Marauder

Guardian/Juggernaut

 

That's 4/8. Seriously, take all the weapon damage abilities off the bars of any of these classes and see how horribly gimped their damage is.

 

Of the remaining, Sage/Sorc tends to do a very normalized sort of damage that's easily disrupted. Probably, if Scoundrel/Operative and Commando/Mercenary just get their damage types tweaked a bit on a couple well targeted abilities, then things would probably be in a really good place and there would be no need to tweak tank mechanics themselves in PvP.

 

sorry to burst this but marauders and jugss that do DPS rely heavly on force attacks and asassins can go into madness to avoid tanks, the only ones affected are the ones that dont know the pvp spec tanks and snipers/gunslingers.

[Dosvidaniya]

L2R tooltips.

 

Here's a breakdown on the type of attack you typically take from a Shadow/Assassin that I posted earlier in this thread already:

 

Clairvoyant Strike - Weapon Damage - (bread & butter ability that generates procs/stacks to use other stuff)

Shadow Strike - Weapon Damage - (hard hitting positional attack only used with a proc…unless you're bad)

Spinning Strike - Weapon Damage - (Execute ability)

Saber Strike - Weapon Damage - (free attack for when low on Force)

Project - Kinetic Damage - (6s CD, used with stacked buffs)

Force Breach - Internal Damage - (~15s CD, used with stacked buffs)

Shadow Technique (procs) - Internal Damage - (small passive damage)

 

Notice all the weapon damage??? Fully affected by Defense and Shield stats. Shadow/Assassin is not the only class where this is the case.

 

1. Why on earth would you still try to use that rotation against a tank? I play an assassin. When I come against a tank, I don't spam melee abilities. When project hits harder than the other attacks, why would you still use them as top priority?

 

2. There are two other trees that are less dependent on weapon damage. But, it was convenient for you to ignore them, wasn't it?

 

The fact is that you can still get around the tank stats. Yes, switching abilities costs you damage. So, the tank stats did accomplish it for the few weapon-damage classes with weapon-damage specs. However, they peak fast. It takes very little tank gear to push project to be a top priority ability. The same goes for other abilities that bypass tank stats. After that point, what good do the tank stats do? They'll help against some failures that don't know how to switch and the remaining weapon damage rotations. That's a really, really small amount. The tank stat allocation design is broken.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Dosvidaniya

[Boarg]

sorry to burst this but marauders and jugss that do DPS rely heavly on force attacks and asassins can go into madness to avoid tanks, the only ones affected are the ones that dont know the pvp spec tanks and snipers/gunslingers.

 

You need to take a closer look at their main dps abilities. Lots of weapon damage in there. There's some opportunity to try to avoid weapon damage types, but doing so gimps damage by itself as well as leaving a lot of GCD's that just have to be filled with weapon damage regardless.

[Neurok]

This thread explains a lot.. my kinetic shadow feels so very squishy in pvp.

 

I hoped SWTOR tanks could be compared to WAR tanks, with high mitigation and guard to make them very viable in pvp.. but alas

 

Guess I'll just go dps then

[Boarg]

1. Why on earth would you still try to use that rotation against a tank? I play an assassin. When I come against a tank, I don't spam melee abilities. When project hits harder than the other attacks, why would you still use them as top priority?

 

2. There are two other trees that are less dependent on weapon damage. But, it was convenient for you to ignore them, wasn't it?

 

The fact is that you can still get around the tank stats. Yes, switching abilities costs you damage. So, the tank stats did accomplish it for the few weapon-damage classes with weapon-damage specs. However, they peak fast. It takes very little tank gear to push project to be a top priority ability. The same goes for other abilities that bypass tank stats. After that point, what good do the tank stats do? They'll help against some failures that don't know how to switch and the remaining weapon damage rotations. That's a really, really small amount. The tank stat allocation design is broken.

 

I didn't list a "rotation." I was grouping the types of damage together.

 

And of course, I use abilities like Project and Force Breach against a tank as much as possible, but you can't just cut out weapon damage entirely without gimping your damage altogether. Project is weak for Infiltration without preceeding it with two Clairvoyant Strikes. Force Breach is lackluster without building up the buff stack. It's just a fact most Shadow/Assassin damage still comes from Weapon damage, even when trying to max out non-weapon damage sources. You can prioritize Project all you want, but it still has a 6s CD.

 

As for the other two specs... Yeah, proportion of weapon damage is smaller, but a big chunk of their overall damage is still weapon damage and mitigated by tank stats. And even with that "disadvantage" of more weapon damage, Infiltration is still the overall stronger PvP spec compared to either one.

[Zintair]

This thread explains a lot.. my kinetic shadow feels so very squishy in pvp.

 

I hoped SWTOR tanks could be compared to WAR tanks, with high mitigation and guard to make them very viable in pvp.. but alas

 

Guess I'll just go dps then

 

If I remember correctly the Shield could actually block magical attacks in WAR. Shield Blocked everything and Parry blocked melee only. Can't quite remember. I'm surprised this is an issue because I know Mythic is working in the background at BW the problem is people who are saying things like... "working as intended"

 

There is no way this is "working as intended" and seems to fall into the box of other mechanics that are broken such as the animation differences between Republic and Empire and the differences between Op and Scoundrel.

 

This however effects all classes and needs to be fixed because the faceroll PvP 4 man groups are wiping the floor with me and its becoming very annoying to live about 5-7 seconds to a Bounty Hunter if my Resilience is on cooldown. (I'm a Shadow)

Edited January 11, 2012 by Zintair

[Calibretto]

This is scary, scary news for someone leveling a tank who enjoys pvp'ing a lot. I don't want me active defense abilities to be my only defense; I want to actually feel tanky in exchange for the damage I'm losing.

[Nohoth]

Really Bioware? 23,000 views, 44 pages, and nothing as much as a reply to let me know if the set of gear i farmed is worthless or just bugged.

 

 

To the people trying to defend this, and saying it's the way it was intended, you have no idea what your talking about. as a shield vanguard a good portion of my abilitys depend on my shield going off, like getting ammo or refreshing stockstrike. so when i dueled a sorc today on Ilum guess what I was at a sevre disadvantage to him cause I had count em 13 worthless talent points that all were based off my shiled proc. and since it never went off once in 3 duels all those talents went to waste.

 

I am sorry but I am not ok with my pvp tank gear I farmed, & almost half my tanking talents being worthless to 5/8 ACs in the game.

[RoadtoArkham]

As a DPS player, through and through, I'm reluctant to give this any support. Too many bad memories of never being able to take down a Paladin in WoW with my Rogue

 

But this thread needs attention. I have to agree that it is an issue when I, as an Operative, do not hesitate to attack tanks knowing I can pull it off. As much as I despise incessant complaining and whining, this is a very real issue, with plenty of evidence and well-written arguments behind it.

 

One would hope that a fix to this would also help balance out some of the insane burst we do as Operatives. Hell, it might not even be our classes fault!

 

For everyone who plans on unsubscribing or quitting, just remember that the game just came out. Give it time. Bioware will take care of our issues and I'm confident they hear our voices. Unfortunately, important issues like this are occluded by the incessant, poorly-written QQ.

Edited January 11, 2012 by RoadtoArkham

[Leiloni]

That's not true at all, I don't know where you got this idea. The vast majority of abilities deal damage that's hit by armor. Most classes get maybe 2 or 3 that aren't.

 

This is what the OP left out. Which and how many skills actually deal Internal damage. Not many.

 

While internal and elemental damage bypasses armor, DPS spec Scoundrel/Ops and Sages/Sorcs have two attacks at most that deal internal/elemental damage and they are mostly on CDs because they are the big class defining skills. The bread and butter attacks that they spend most of their time using are energy or weapon attacks which are mitigated by armor.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Leiloni

[beliglath]

Really Bioware? 23,000 views, 44 pages, and nothing as much as a reply to let me know if the set of gear i farmed is worthless or just bugged.

 

 

To the people trying to defend this, and saying it's the way it was intended, you have no idea what your talking about. as a shield vanguard a good portion of my abilitys depend on my shield going off, like getting ammo or refreshing stockstrike. so when i dueled a sorc today on Ilum guess what I was at a sevre disadvantage to him cause I had count em 13 worthless talent points that all were based off my shiled proc. and since it never went off once in 3 duels all those talents went to waste.

 

I am sorry but I am not ok with my pvp tank gear I farmed, & almost half my tanking talents being worthless to 5/8 ACs in the game.

 

Lol i still renamber when they announced the red zone it took over 600 pages and over a million views to get the first ( and not so helpfull ) response xD

[ArmoredJuneBug]

You completely ignore this little thing called healing...

Yes, because it's got nothing to do with the argument at hand.

 

If you're beating on a tank, or anyone at all really, with a pet healer instead of switching to the healer you deserve to lose.

 

There's also the fact that twice as long still isn't particularly long at all, with the damage numbers being thrown out.

Done with this thread.

Promises, promises.

Stick whatever numbers you want into the example, then increase the damage reduction by whatever you want.

Tank: 1 DPS.

Healer 2 (for damage-dealer DPS): 2 HPS.

DPS mitigation: 30%.

 

Tank goes down like a wet paper rag.

 

Or, alternately, DPS hits healer instead of tank. Dealing unmitigable damage to tank due to Guard and preventing healer from healing effectively.

 

You're welcome.

Tanks, regardless of how you feel, have the highest mitigation.

Actually they have exactly the same mitigation as DPS characters using the same AC. Only a lot lower damage and pointless stat allocation on gear.

Once done, enemies are forced to attack the tank directly to drop any targets.

Except that's something you should never, ever do.

 

It's better to hit the guarded target than the tank himself. Unless the guarded target is another tank, in which case you hit both to overload damage on the guarding tank.

 

This isn't rocket science, if people are attacking the tank when there are other targets they are bad, end of. Tanks are supposed to be controlled, not beaten down when there are other targets around.

...in no way can overall survival time for tanks go up if the game is to remain balanced and playable.

Except that's not an undisputable fact by any means.

 

And, as should be obvious, not something you'll convince a lot of people here about.

Probably, if Scoundrel/Operative and Commando/Mercenary just get their damage types tweaked a bit on a couple well targeted abilities, then things would probably be in a really good place and there would be no need to tweak tank mechanics themselves in PvP.

Or you could equalize mitigable abilities for the other classes, making tanks less useless and reducing the nerf-cries for Sages/Sorcerers and Scoundrels/Operatives in one fell swoop.

[beliglath]

This is what the OP left out. Which and how many skills actually deal Internal damage. Not many.

 

While internal and elemental damage bypasses armor, DPS spec Scoundrel/Ops and Sages/Sorcs have two attacks at most that deal internal/elemental damage and they are mostly on CDs because they are the big class defining skills. The bread and butter attacks that they spend most of their time using are energy or weapon attacks which are mitigated by armor.

 

wich again its not the topic of this post, all tanks can have the same armor using dps gear, please focus yourselfs in the real issue wich is TANK STATS, not armor.

[Raving_Ravec]

As a DPS player, through and through, I'm reluctant to give this any support. Too many bad memories of never being able to take down a Paladin in WoW with my Rogue

 

But this thread needs attention. I have to agree that it is an issue when I, as an Operative, do not hesitate to attack tanks knowing I can pull it off. As much as I despise incessant complaining and whining, this is a very real issue, with plenty of evidence and well-written arguments behind it.

 

One would hope that a fix to this would also help balance out some of the insane burst we do as Operatives. Hell, it might not even be our classes fault!

 

For everyone who plans on unsubscribing or quitting, just remember that the came just came out. Give it time. Bioware will take care of our issues and I'm confident they hear our voices. Unfortunately, important issues like this are occluded by the incessant, porrly-written QQ.

 

The SW:TOR Beta started 23/06/2010, that's one and a half years ago. In that period this issue wasn't resolved, why would it be any time soon? You can't really say 'the game just came out so it doesn't matter' when its been up and running for 1,5 years.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Raving_Ravec

[Ithril]

As to the "how many attacks do damage besides weapon-damage?" question:

 

I decided to try something today, did a bunch of warzones with my shield generator exchanged for a power generator (so 0% chance to shield.) I didn't notice the difference. So in my humble opinion the answer to the question is, not enough to notice.

 

Shielding needs to be fixed. Not just for survivability, but lots of talents (I'm looking at you, Shieldtech Powertech tree) hinge on shielding actually working.

 

Are tanks underpowered? That's debateable. Should everyone's major class mechanics work before we start deciding what is or isn't balanced? Absolutely. How would DPS classes like only being able to crit against "the right" classes.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Ithril

[beliglath]

The SW:TOR Beta started 23/06/2010, that's one and a half years ago. In that period this issue wasn't resolved, why would it be any time soon? You can't really say 'the game just came out so it doesn't matter' when its been up and running for 1,5 years.

 

with a low player base and you dont really know how many skilled pvpers were actually playing.

[RoadtoArkham]

The SW:TOR Beta started 23/06/2010, that's one and a half years ago. In that period this issue wasn't resolved, why would it be any time soon? You can't really say 'the game just came out so it doesn't matter' when its been up and running for 1,5 years.

 

Was the issue given notice at the time? It's incredibly short-sighted to say that because an issue hasn't been fixed yet, it will never be fixed.

[beliglath]

As to the "how many attacks do damage besides weapon-damage?" question:

 

I decided to try something today, did a bunch of warzones with my shield generator exchanged for a power generator (so 0% chance to shield.) I didn't notice the difference. So in my humble opinion the answer to the question is, not enough to notice.

 

Shielding needs to be fixed. Not just for survivability, but lots of talents (I'm looking at you, Shieldtech Powertech tree) hinge on shielding actually working.

 

Are tanks underpowered? That's debateable. Should everyone's major class mechanics work before we start deciding what is or isn't balanced? Absolutely. How would DPS classes like only being able to crit against "the right" classes.

 

they would have to re think their stragegy switching to power and accuracy rather than crit and surge, or remain like they are to kill non tanks

Edited January 11, 2012 by beliglath

[Leiloni]

wich again its not the topic of this post, all tanks can have the same armor using dps gear, please focus yourselfs in the real issue wich is TANK STATS, not armor.

 

The OP's entire post is directed around Internal and Elemental damage causing these problems. My point is - Sorcs/Sages and Ops/Scoundrels have at most, three attacks that deal that type of damage and only one of them doesn't have a cooldown. So over the course of a fight, regardless of his tanking stats and whatever, internal damage should only be a problem for two or three attacks. That's it. He's making it seem like all of the damage coming from these two classes is internal when in fact it's the minority of their skills that do that. There's so much talk about the tanks instead of people talking about the fact that internal damage is not the majority of the damage you'll be seeing.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Leiloni

[Lina_Inverse]

The OP's entire post is directed around Internal and Elemental damage causing these problems. My point is - Sorcs/Sages and Ops/Scoundrels have at most, three attacks that deal that type of damage and only one of them doesn't have a cooldown. So over the course of a fight, regardless of his tanking stats and whatever, internal damage should only be a problem for two or three attacks. That's it. He's making it seem like all of the damage coming from these two classes is internal when in fact it's the minority of their skills that do that. There's so much talk about the tanks instead of people talking about the fact that internal damage is not the majority of the damage you'll be seeing.

 

There's a secondary compounding problem in that unlike most other classes, all of their primary damage is tech damage, which ignores defense and skills that boost it. On top of that, they have a buff that not only applies an internal damage dot for decent damage, but also ensures that they are always bypassing 50% of armor completely with every attack, UNLIKE any other class.

 

The class is built to penetrate defenses, there's no doubt about that. The question is whether or not it's too good at it.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Lina_Inverse