PVP Video - OPeratives are OP

[Tiresias]

There is a difference between having a good played at the command of a strong class that works well and having anyone -- regardless of skill -- at the command of a class that only needs to get behind a target while in stealth and hit 4 buttons in sequence to generate a nearly-guaranteed kill.

 

Sages/Sorcs are strong, and I certainly don't like fighting them on my Kinetic Shadow, but I can see them coming and I have never, ever been killed by one in 8 seconds from full health.

[Jayton]

here is the list of the deadliest repeatable combo.

Scoundrel: Load flachette round, dirty kick(4s stun), backblast (loaded with flachette round produces the crit for 6k and change when lvl 50), blaster whip, quickshot. Target is dead if first shot crit. if not another insta quick shot to finish the job.

 

Operative: acid blade(same as flachette), debilitate(4s stun), shiv(coated with acid blade) and well you get the picture....

 

backblast crits(loaded with flachette) for 6kish

Blaster whip in pvp non crit 2k dmg

Dirty kick non crit 1k dmg

quick shot non crit 2k dmg

(thanks to chewsay) 2k from flachette dot

all done in 6 seconds lets add that up.. did that to a 50 sith juggernaut with @ minimum pants and chest PvP pieces.

Total dmg in 3 seconds is= 13k

if any of those abilities had crit heres the closest i can calculate with the crits

dirty kick crits 14k dmg

dk and qs crit 16k dmg

just quick shot critting 15k dmg

thats all assuming that backblast crit its first hit shot. oh and its on a 6s cooldown.

 

oh and now lets assume only backblast crits and pugnacity is in effect from the guy you just killed and you have the talent points to make it deal 30% more dmg now

 

combo with quick shot critting is now 17k dmg.

whos opening 3 moves is not OP?

 

oh and I didnt even add the move shoot first which can only be used in steath but does around 2k in pvp crits for 2800 and if you have talent points knocks the target down for 3 seconds.

 

and at a base 25% crit no buffs stack in your smuggler buff another 5% being 30% and add the extra 16% chance for backblast to crit for a whopping 46% crit chance on that one move.

 

(edited and readjusted totals for flachette round dot) first round was all done on a 50 sith juggernaut minimum pants chest pvp gear I just forgot about the dot in my calculations.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Jayton

[wwkingms]

and yet my sorc with 450 expertise.. and being the SQUISHIEST class in the game..

 

has never crit over 3600

 

balanced

[Numerii]

The ability to gib a target like that, at the very least, should only be afforded to a stealth class once every 2-5 mins. Not as soon as they can re-enter stealth.

 

I've yet to hit 50 and get geared on my sorc so I really don't want to start drawing conclusions on whether or not classes are balanced but what I did see in this video was a guy who was able to use pretty much the same 3-4 buttons on targets of any level and armor and either produce unrecoverable damage and quickly kill it or what most of us would consider normal damage and then some rather weak flailing of the arms following the opener in which the target was able to respond.

 

I can only assume that if I were playing a Op/Scoundrel that if the opener didn't drop the target down to 30% or so I'd just vanish and re-open for the kill, otherwise business as usual...

 

The only skill I can see in playing this class in knowing how to ensure your opponent never gets to respond to your attacks and possibly having the patience to wait for your cds to come back up when you have to blow them in order to maintain said control over your victims.

[Jayton]

and yet my sorc with 450 expertise.. and being the SQUISHIEST class in the game..

 

has never crit over 3600

 

balanced

 

nice youve crit for 3600?!?!? wish i could do that highest crit ive had was 3200 and thats with 78% bonus crit dmg and 32% chance to crit on my best ability with smuggler bonus crit buff of 5%. and they say assassins are supposed to be assassins. im a shadow the mirror and i dont feel that way in pvp.

 

 

 

scoundrels longest cooldown is dirty kick for 30 seconds in taht entire rotation. and thats only if you DID NOT use shoot first you can always use it next opening while dirty kick is on cooldown and keep the rotation forever going target to target.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Jayton

[Chewstay]

I'll just share some more of my experiences, for those that haven't read through the whole thread it is my video and im the OP.

 

For those people saying that people with 500 expertise are unkillable? Not really... it just takes me 15-20 seconds to kill them instead of 5 seconds.

 

 

The flow of damage on the Operative Scoundrel is actually identical to what this guy said here:

 

After the 6k dmg in one attack its normally followed up by a 4k hit and a 3k hit and some more smaller hits, but that is in about 3 seconds and all of my nearly 16k hps are gone.

 

This guy knows what he's talking about. You can do the math yourself. I have a 9.7% expertise bonus with all my champ gear. I have 1 piece of OJ gear left (gloves), 1 epic PVE implant and 1 piece of Centaurian gear. If I was fully decked out I can assume I would have ~11-12% bonus.

 

But lets call it 10% for rounding purposes.

 

I regularly hit for upper 5000's on most of my targets. Lets call it 5750... with a 10% bonus. Take away my 10% bonus (meaning I'm attacking an equally geared player) and I'm still hitting them for over 5k.

 

I have 35% crit and my talents give me an extra 16% crit on backstab and hidden strike.

 

That means I have a 50% crit rate.

 

 

So 50% of the people I attack will be hit for over 5k on my opener, and 25% of the people I attack ill be hit for 9k total after eating a backstab crit (can you follow the math?). That is not balanced. Let's not forget that Acid Blade also applies a 2k damage DoT on my hidden strike over 6 seconds.

 

Assuming 2 crits the damage logs look like this:

 

5500 HS Crit (0 seconds)

4200 Backstab Crit (1.5 seconds)

2000 Shiv (3.0 seconds)

1500 Lacerate (4.5 seconds)

1500 Lacerate + 1000 Lacerate proc (50% proc rate) (6.0 seconds)

+ 2000 Acid Blade DoT

 

= 17,700 damage in 6 seconds... oh and did I mention the stun on my opener lasted for half of that time?

 

 

I firmly believe that if I get the opener on you, no matter what your gear or what your class, no matter what cooldowns or pots you have on you... you will die.

 

 

Also for the people saying what about Scoundrels? Scoundrels are a mirror class. Same abilities. There are 2 nicely geared ones on my server. Creapy and Cricketz. Both way better geared than I am.

[chilanez]

Can't delete posts Edited January 9, 2012 by chilanez

[Chewstay]

The only skill I can see in playing this class in knowing how to ensure your opponent never gets to respond to your attacks and possibly having the patience to wait for your cds to come back up when you have to blow them in order to maintain said control over your victims.

 

 

Thats the thing. You don't have to do that because people die in 2 seconds. It is very rare I have to use my cooldowns... also my shield is on a 45 second CD so its pretty much up all the time.

 

 

In fact the real skill involved in playing it well is being able to manage your combat/out of combat effectively.

 

Getting stuck in combat is a killer to operatives.

[Vyruzvetrix]

I never knew how powerful operatives were untill I watched this...

[Tycoon]

Ok, here is my data on the video

 

At 6:53 the operative engages a consular. I chose this fight, because the operative had the lowest burst.

 

The fight begins at 6:53

 

The operative opens with a stun which ended at 6:57. During this time, the operative did 7820 damage in four secs.

 

The fight ends at 7:04

 

The operative does 16,741 damage in 11 secs.

 

Summery: I dont think this video is an acurrate description of the class. Most of the time he is fighting in warzones. There are alot of variables to consider in warzones. Does he use biocem? Did he use Warzone potions? Did he have other buffs from other players? What type of the gear did the other players have? What kind of gear does he have? Did he have a full set of champion? Did he have a champion main hand weapon? Did he have any battlemaster gear? See my point?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Tycoon

[Chewstay]

I see your point... except all those questions have already been answered Again... that is me in the video...

 

I'm not biochem.

 

I have an epic crafted implant. I have orange gloves with level 48 mods in them. I have centaurian boots.

 

Rest is champion.

 

 

Warzone is a better comparison than fighting people in Ilum. Ilum people are rarely buffed and are rarely expecting a fight unless they are rolling up on a point that the enemy owns.

 

As for the people I'm fighting, you can visually see who the 50s are that are decked out and who the 50s are that are not.

[Tycoon]

I see your point... except all those questions have already been answered Again... that is me in the video...

 

I'm not biochem.

 

I have an epic crafted implant. I have orange gloves with level 48 mods in them. I have centaurian boots.

 

Rest is champion.

 

 

Warzone is a better comparison than fighting people in Ilum. Ilum people are rarely buffed and are rarely expecting a fight unless they are rolling up on a point that the enemy owns.

 

As for the people I'm fighting, you can visually see who the 50s are that are decked out and who the 50s are that are not.

 

Thank you for answering. Im not surprised you have already answered those questions. I just didnt want to read through 17 pages of QQing a trolling to find them. I cant find alot of operatives on my server. So, i dont have an opinion of them right now. Im just posting the data i collected.

 

I do play a marauder, and i can tell you, i can never do 7820 damage in 4 secs. I can barely make 4k crits.

 

Also, the best way to test is dueling some of your friends. Since the classes are mirrors, it would be controled and accurate. If you on my server, ill be happy to do some testing with you. My main has a 8.43 expertise.

 

One more thing. Did you use any warzone only potions? Like the 15% expertise pot?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Tycoon

[blackadda]

Thanks Peppercorn for being honest about your class... your obviously a half competant player whos primary interest is in the good of the game;)

 

Had a lot of people deny its possible for an OP to be killing a PVP geared 50 during the knockdown.

 

Also had the same thing done to my pvp geared 50 by a half decent smuggler..

 

Opener, knockdown, critx3, about 10% left by the time the toon stands up, 1 more hit, dead..

 

Your vid proves what the rest of us non-ops know, and some of the baddie ops want to deny....and you prove it several times over against multiple level 50's that its not a 1 off.

 

 

Ill be using your build on my new op in the meantime, GREAT VID:D

[MeeeeZ]

Suppose I can be happy that I've never encountered an Operative who could even remotely play his class yet. Edited January 9, 2012 by MeeeeZ

[Kelticfury]

Helluuu, why do you think so many play on the empire side?

 

Evil will always win, because good is stupid. -Dark Helmet

[Chewstay]

 

One more thing. Did you use any warzone only potions? Like the 15% expertise pot?

 

 

 

Nope.

[Lord_Karsk]

and yet my sorc with 450 expertise.. and being the SQUISHIEST class in the game..

 

has never crit over 3600

 

balanced

 

Same with my trooper, pretty sure i one time got a crit close to 4 k thats it.

If i with my trooper could open up with a 6000 crit everytime now that would be "fun"

 

Anyways to me it is just pure hilarious that the only ones on these forums that cant understand that the OP is OP is BioWare. To be honest dont know about the Scoundrel because as a Republic there is not many rep vs rep fights.

 

Wonder if BioWare understand how gamers are, i mean ingame people talk about this subject in warzones fleets etc.And if people just leave because they see that their class is no good against this class they will just leave and maybe their friends as well and in the end BW/LA/EA lose subs and money all because the BioWare devs cant create game balance.Same old story as other MMOs.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Lord_Karsk

[maximusedward]

roflmao what happens when you combine stealth/dps/healing into one class?

this

Whoever design the scoundrel/operative/pvp need to be looked at again.

[astrolite]

~350 expertise, 6 champion items, 2 centurion. I am only seeing unbuffed hidden strike crits for just around 4k on poorly geared folks / light armor. With the wz buff and expertise potion, I get in to the mid 5k (I do this routinely for the medal).

 

In other words, equipment makes a huge difference. Now make a video of only you fighting people of equal gear. A helm/chest on its own does not = fully geared.

 

Edit: Or even better - grab green items from the AH and make a new video

Edited January 9, 2012 by astrolite

[Delolith]

~350 expertise, 6 champion items, 2 centurion. I am only seeing unbuffed hidden strike crits for just around 4k on poorly geared folks / light armor. With the wz buff and expertise potion, I get in to the mid 5k (I do this routinely for the medal).

 

In other words, equipment makes a huge difference. Now make a video of only you fighting people of equal gear. A helm/chest on its own does not = fully geared.

 

I guess too bad I didn't have the video when I get down to 40% health on defensive stance out of opener knockdown with 419 expertise.....

 

Dream on.

[astrolite]

I guess too bad I didn't have the video when I get down to 40% health on defensive stance out of opener knockdown with 419 expertise.....

 

Dream on.

 

Data would be useful. Like what I just posted.

[Jaku]

At least wait until I get my new Scoundrel to level 50 and gear him out before nerfing operatives/scoundrels.

 

It's the least Bioware can do.

[Delolith]

Data would be useful. Like what I just posted.

 

Offensive built Shadow on Defensive stance (35.9% mitigation, 19% internal/elemental), full champ gear (419 expertise, 15k health).

 

Was down to 40% health after the initial burst. I poped Force of Will (CC breaker), Resilience (3 seconds immunity), 15 seconds +50% avoidance and still lost even with restealthing and KDing him. The only way I can win is if I outplay them to the point of ridiculousness and kite them around AS A MELEE DPSER....yes it is that ridiculous.

 

At least wait until I get my new Scoundrel to level 50 and gear him out before nerfing operatives/scoundrels.

 

It's the least Bioware can do.

 

Lol

Edited January 9, 2012 by Delolith

[flooble]

I don't think the argument "If I don't have my CC break up I'll die" is valid in a class specific rant.

 

Almost all will die to an enemy if they cannot break a CC.

 

 

I'd be interested to see footage of equally well geared players in a duel or similar where all cooldowns were available, preferably with a competent driver at the hands of both classes. the result of those engagements would provide a decent starting point for discussion.

[Delolith]

I don't think the argument "If I don't have my CC break up I'll die" is valid in a class specific rant.

 

Almost all will die to an enemy if they cannot break a CC.

 

 

I'd be interested to see footage of equally well geared players in a duel or similar where all cooldowns were available, preferably with a competent driver at the hands of both classes. the result of those engagements would provide a decent starting point for discussion.

 

 

Although the Sorc isn't interested in dueling I think this is pretty constructive....