AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You're in competition with the boss, not each other. But that's for admitting that it's about competition with your teammates. Of course part of it is competition within my team. It's not hateful, spiteful competition, but it is competition on some level. The fact that you think this is some kind of smoking gun or scandal speaks volumes about the clash of "gameworldviews" here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Ok, I want it. I want it enough to shove it down the throat of the anti-parser crowd if I have to. I'm not going to gladly watch a few curmudgeons try and turn this game into a "no numbers" zone. See? You're just a braggart who wants the biggest e-peen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes it is. It must be. People defeat bosses at all difficulty levels without this tool. This tool simply isn't necessary to play the game. It must be for something else. It's so Johnny-Ego can spam. I hope Johnny-Ego DOES spam, so I can click is name and select "ignore". Meanwhile, reasonable people will use it to identify weak spots in their raid comp and their personal rotations and specs. Combat logs are coming people. They've already said it. Addons are coming too. And even if they don't add fully functional LUA scripting, there WILL be parsing in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 That's your personal goal. It's not part of the game. Every aspect of the game is a personal goal, being that it's a game and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhit Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 hat's your personal goal. It's not part of the game. And you know this because you are on the development team? Or do you just say that because no real skill is required to defeat any of the encounters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahor Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's not a private goal: it's in the game. "Go kill that boss," is pretty much what raids are, right? It's not "go kill this boss, then we'll tell you you're the best!" That's your goal, and the one you're trying to force on the rest of us, solely because you want those bragging rights. Again whut?!? Even here in this thread there are just 3 guys (where one allready has the name of a cheat) who want this crap. For the rest it doesn't matter who has MAX DPS, MAX healing, MAX speed or any other MAX. It indicates allready, that just a minority want it but the mayority is against it. So yea BioWare, this should make clear: NO for any graphes or meters! The main reason for NO is, it WILL destroy the fun of your biggest coustumer group: causal gamers as even if they don't care about this numbers, the LFG will care with "DD min over 9000 DPS else your are to much noob". Everyone else knows just by checking the screen, if a group member is semi-AFK or not without the need of some useless bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Every aspect of the game is a personal goal, being that it's a game and all. Problem is recount cheapens the experience for everyone. Downloading programs to help clear content fast is bad for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Right, you don't need a program. So I want to know your DPS and how you come up with it without recount. Why? Did we kill the boss? Yes? Great. Why do you need this data? You don't! You want it to brag with. This is why SWTOR doesn't have this tool. To get rid of this nonsense. 100th time: You don't need the data. You want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 That depends on how mad they get when I paste their damage. I think I gave this one anti-meter guy a heart attack in Rift when I used the external real-time parser and a little "Ctr-V" action. He was all like **** this, I quit, etc. It was fun, and he was mad bro. Simple minds and hearts not worth a damn are the problem with these devices. Guns don't kill, people do... The meters are fine, but any player abusing these tools should be held in violation of ToC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uruare Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I know you probably think the addon servers would be unlivable or some other outcome that gratifies your position, but I don't think so. You'd just have laid back servers where people went to roll a lot of alts and then servers that were more "gamey." Not saying this outcome would be bad, I just don't think you'd get your "Aha! Addons ruined the game!" result. EDIT: In all seriousness, what would they do about raid balance? I suppose they could tune the enrage timers tighter and such on the addon servers. Actually, I don't think that at all. For clarification of my genuine position, I fully sympathize with those that want add-ons; having played WoW as a raider, I know their value, their purposes and their value in a raid environment. No post of mine is intended to bring those into question. Frankly, it's an approach to playing a game like WoW or TOR that isn't bad or stupid or wrong; it is, however, very different in its general mindset and conscription of values. Very, very different in its purposes and determinations of importance than the 'other side' that continues to emergently take definitive shape in contrast. Some call it 'the casuals', but that term fails. Some of those lumped as 'casuals' aren't casual at all, but are very avid about other things. Some might be all about crafting, others about story and immersion or even roleplaying; yet others might be just as avid as the most hardcore raider is about raiding...only about soloing. I don't think hardcore raiders are bad, stupid or wrong for wanting their tools; those tools have purpose and unarguable value to someone that's primarily playing to be the best at raiding as they can be. I do think that the two very general, but increasingly defined, mindsets don't play well together, and play increasingly less well together the more they're forced into cohabitation. I've been a hardcore raider. I've been infuriated by 'the bads' and frustrated to no end by the very sort of people I have kind'e become one of; the kind that don't give a bleep enough to work hard at being excellent. I have, in my time, taken my raiding fairly seriously. WoW was my burrito for doing so, and I lived my own hype; I played other games for different experiences. I also enjoy roleplaying. I've never bothered trying to make WoW be my game to roleplay in; yeah, there are unofficial RP servers, but that's not the WoW mindset. That's not what most people playing WoW are playing WoW for; that's not what the devs are making WoW to basically be all about. I'd be the stupid one to try to make WoW be what it is not, in that respect. As a leveling-into-raiding game, it is excellent, and if you take it for what it is and don't get brainmelty trying to make it and its general playerbase be what it and they are not...you can have a lot of fun with it. TOR is not WoW. It has operations, but they're not like WoW's raids. Mechanically, kinda similar, but the presentation is entirely different. The -mindset- is entirely different, and even if Bioware tries its utmost to be an immersion game and a raid game...they're not going to magically make -people- be different. Raiders will want to raid, and they will want their tools for raiding. They will, with those tools, wipe the floor with the current scaling of difficulty of all challenges, force the hands of devs to make those challenges stiffer, harder and responsive to that degree of precision...and that takes a lot of work and effort. The kind of work and effort they've committed themselves to supporting in the story, for example. Bioware is probably going to have to choose what type of game they're going to be, and if it isn't 'immersive story game', they've committed themselves to wasting a lot of time and money on supporting a model that hardcore raiders won't really care about. I don't know what Bioware's thinking. I won't pretend to know things I don't, point in case, but what I -do- know is that they have committed themselves to a standard of delivery and immersion. There's no argument to be had of it; the entire game stands as evidence of how they want the game to be presented. If they try to also foster the same kind of raid environment that WoW has in that model...I predict two things. Hardcore raiders will get sick and tired of all that fluff being packed into all the raids and will rant endlessly on about Bioware being solely responsible for why they've broken the spacebars on XX numbers of keyboards before the game is two years old, being the first. Secondly, the necessary escalation of raid difficulty to keep the hardcore challenged will create the same gulf of disparity between the majority of gamers and the hardcore in being able to do that content at all. And then they'll just be repeating the mistake WoW's been trying to bridge for years; the kind of thing their dungeon finder and raid finder stand as unarguable testament to their acknowledgement of as a problem needing address. When only about 5% of your playerbase ever sees the content you're providing as endgame material; the culmination of everyone's efforts throughout the entire game; something is wrong. How does it wind up like that? Failure to account for different playstyles and degrees of commitment, frankly. So no, I do not think that add-on enabled servers would be terrible places at all. In fact, I think a segregation might make them much nicer places, as well as their counterpart of add-on disabled servers, because two increasingly oppositional styles of gameplay are not being forced into proximity on the same servers. They could, in fact, escalate difficulty all they need to keep up with the most hardcore of hardcore on add-on enabled servers...and tailor difficulties to be more vanilla and 'normal' mode on add-on disabled servers. If they want to service both general styles, they're not going to be able to do it with the same cake. The 'sides' have gotten too definitive; the cultures have become too defined, and they are different. They could service both. But they'll be smarter to offer the folks that want cake the cake, and the folks that want steak the steak. Offering both steak-flavored cake will only piss them both off and leave everyone dissatisfied. Follow my analogy there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This information is superfluous. You don't need it to play effectively. You want it. You don't need it. Difference.Arguing want vs need is a sure sign that you don't actually have a valid counter argument. He wants something that has 0 impact on you; you want him not to have it because you're delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 See? You're just a braggart who wants the biggest e-peen. No, I'm just a sane gamer who is sick of your lame attempts at social engineering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Problem is recount cheapens the experience for everyone. Downloading programs to help clear content fast is bad for the game. I agree, programs like DBM that help clear content are stupid. Luckily, recount does nothing to help clear content. All it does is tell me how much DPS I do. It doesn't tell me what abilities to use. It doesn't tell me what I did wrong. It doesn't tell me what I did right. All it tells me is "You did this much damage over this period of time." That's it. That's all. Does nothing to make content easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryphikik Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I never loved it, but i was a healer and an officer leading our healers, even though I could often lead recount healing, I never thought it really represented clutch healing or anything like that. Especially the overhealing stat, overhealing by nature isn't something you desire, but certain classes naturally overheal more than others... suddenly people who are ignorant, often dpsers who have no idea how the healing side of the game functions... start looking at stats like that and think they know something. For instance in WoW Paladins always were more prone to overhealing, their style and role just made it something that happened... but you get people that don't understand things like that and think it means someone is being sloppy, when the reality was that they were being safe and doing the right thing. So I see the purpose for judging things like dps... but there are a lot of pointless stats in Recount that usually serve to misinform ignorants rather than inform the person who already understands their role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crohadan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Right, you don't need a program. So I want to know your DPS and how you come up with it without recount. You were talking about "I know how much damage my abilities do." So, please, what is your methodology for determining your DPS output? You've continually insulted us by saying we don't need recount to find this stuff out. So, please, enlighten us as to your DPS. its called pay attention to what your doing! its not that hard to figure out the best sequences to maximize damage output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicSix Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If they add something like recount, then i'm on the edge to leave. I know how to do DPS, but with a recount system, then people expect me to take the best of the best dps spec, and i don't want that. Recount ruins the game. People should pick what ever they want, without any complaints. If the mob/boss in a flashpoint dies, then he dies, no problems, dosen't matter how fast you get him down, as long as it works and you have FUN! So much hyperbole. The only people i ran into that were crazy about your gear was top end raiding guilds in wow. If bosses were dying I never saw to much venom thrown around over dps. Though i disagree with people picking whatever they want and me having being fine with it. Your on a team a remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhit Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Even here in this thread there are just 3 guys (where one allready has the name of a cheat) who want this I think you have illustrated why some of combat logging is needed. Might want to review the posts and check your counting. But the bright side comes in 11 days. The forums and the game itself will turn into one carebear fest. TOR has failed to meet the expectations of many players, most of which will be gone on the 21st. After the record breaking drop in subscriptions happens, the TOR community will truely have a majority of people that don't want any of the modern trappings players have come to expect after playing other MMO's. Edited January 10, 2012 by Zhit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) It has the side effect of making the game a lot easier and trivializing things a lot faster. WoW introduced ultra easy mode, I don't want it here too. That's normal mode here. Even better you could argue that an add on like recount allows more tight encounters that are better tuned and well harder. Edited January 10, 2012 by TheHauntingBard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThanosTitan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It shows you what abilities you should be using. Yes, I get that you've convinced yourself that reading an easy to follow chart consists of learning to play but in reality had to have a program do it for you. You are now making decisions that you were previously unable to make because recount told you what to do. Get it now? See you never learned to play, you took a shortcut. Making decisions based on available data and a mod playing for you are in vastly different ballparks. Does the game play for you when it shows debuff timers on your target? Is it playing for you when bossed emote before a big ability instead of them just doing it? Heck why even have tool tips at all if all the fun is in making guesses as to whats actually going on in game. Your argument is incredibly stretched, weak, and moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Simple minds and hearts not worth a damn are the problem with these devices. Guns don't kill, people do... The meters are fine, but any player abusing these tools should be held in violation of ToC. So I'm not worth a damn? Nice. I really appreciate that. I'd like to know precisely how I violated the ToC for Rift. The person I did this to was an insufferable anti-addon moocow who deserved exactly what he *did to himself.* He was so sure that parsing damage was impossible in Rift and I showed him otherwise. If he had taken the slightest deep breath it would've been fine. But go ahead, keep trying to demonize me. Enough players understand what I'm saying that I am confident it won't work. Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Arguing want vs need is a sure sign that you don't actually have a valid counter argument. I wrote them above. You ignored them. Repeating "the other side has no argument" doesn't make it true. It just means you can't read. He wants something that has 0 impact on you; you want him not to have it because you're delusional. It impacts me because now not only do I have to compete with the boss, but my own teammates who have turned this video game into a job with spreadsheets. Edited January 10, 2012 by JustTed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I agree, programs like DBM that help clear content are stupid. Luckily, recount does nothing to help clear content. Please don't tell me you honestly believe this. Helping ensure optimal dps is a HUGE benefit to clearing content faster. Come on now... Again, downloading programs to help you beat a game is lame. That's normal mode here. Even better you could argue that an add on like recount allows more tight encounters that are better tuned and well harder. Removing the learning process is not in the best interest of the game. Content won't last as long. Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 its called pay attention to what your doing! its not that hard to figure out the best sequences to maximize damage output. But I want to know what that output was. So, please, inform me. I want to experiment with if power would give me more DPS output than crit. I want to check sidegrades to see what is superior for overall DPS, even if it's a 1 DPS increase. So I want to know how I can figure that out without recount. You guys keep saying we can figure it out, so please, enlighten me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 its called pay attention to what your doing! its not that hard to figure out the best sequences to maximize damage output. bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 But I want to know what that output was. So, please, inform me. I want to experiment with if power would give me more DPS output than crit. I want to check sidegrades to see what is superior for overall DPS, even if it's a 1 DPS increase. So I want to know how I can figure that out without recount. You guys keep saying we can figure it out, so please, enlighten me. They can't neither will they look at the difference between haste/crit and what not. They are just talking out of their necks to get their point across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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