Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Truga]

Yes, you are the only one. Because the guy you quoted is correct.

You are under the delusion that somehow having Recount visible on the screen increases one's dps during boss fight.

 

Having a DPS meter helps tons in squeezing the last % out of your character. Just because you turn it off doesn't mean that extra % will go away.

[Jahor]

What's wrong with knowing every mathematical equation going on in the background?

 

In the Civ4 community that's the mark of the masters.

 

This is not Civ4.

 

And most of us have to juggle with largh Databases, formulas and tons of calculations in real life allready (the one who actual WORK). They want to relax when playing a GAME!

 

In addition most like to at last have the feeling of THEIR chars and a somewhat individual skilling or gearing.

 

Stuff like DPS-meters lead just to one point: EXACT the same gear with EXACT the same spec for EVERY char. Why do we need such useless stuff like skill-trees or different items at all if there is just ONE spec and ONE gear guys like you except?

 

The developers could save a lot of manpower by just stoping to produce just useless stuff and give everyone a ready to go level 50 with ready to go FIX skilltree with ready to go FIX gear.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Jahor

[AlpsStranger]

Which means you need to balance around that information, locking everyone not using the tools out.

 

And?

 

You're going somewhere with this, right?

 

I'm sure people who object to having a home PC, no doubt via some tortured "think of the children!" line of reasoning, don't do their kids any favors in school either. It's not my problem in either case.

Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Yfelsung]

Why groping around in the dark. All the information you need is already right there, displayed in the tooltips and character stats (damage per skill, crit chance, crit magnitude). All you need is figure out which rotation is the best by actual calculation, rather than trying out every single possible option on a test dummy via a DPS gauge.

 

Okay, that's great for MYSELF, but I am a guild leader.

 

I'm also the tank.

 

Let's say I'm main tanking a boss.

 

For simplicity's sake, let's say it's an 8 man Op and I have 5 DPSers.

 

Now, I need to ensure each of those 5 are doing roughly 20% of the damage (again, for simplicity's sake I'm ignoring my DPS output as a tank)

 

If one is doing 15%, and the rest are picking up the slack, I either need to improve that player or remove him in favour of someone who can do 20% of the DPS.

 

If one player is doing 30% and the rest are picking up the 70%, I need to know who my best DPSer is so I can assign him to teach the rest to be better.

 

If you're in an OP and you're not pulling your weight, a guild leader needs to know this.

 

I don't care about how nice you are, I care about your ability to pull weight.

[aimbotcfg]

This.

 

You may notice that this gets ignored by people that arent you, this is the third or fourth time I've posted it in one of these discussions and the numerophobes always seem to skim over it, or have no reply for it. Either way, it will be ignored by those rabidly against having performance measured.

[Technotica]

For me the big problem is that once upon a time people played the game for the game. To see the world, the story, the combat. Now people play the game for the numbers. To get the highest dps etc. and just to reach the next 'goal' , level 50, raid gear whatever. Its all about getting your carrot and doing it as efficiently as possible, not about just having fun playing a game. Edited January 10, 2012 by Technotica

[Truga]

And?

 

You're going somewhere with this, right?

 

You honestly don't see my point? You are the people arguing that this is entirely optional, and as such you aren't forcing anyone to use it. Well as a matter of fact, this isn't optional and you are forcing people to use it.

 

Therefore your argument holds the same value as anyone else's on this matter, and I'm pretty sure there's more people that don't want this than there are people like the two of us, who don't mind working with numbers even while we're not at work.

[Hairless]

So, what you're saying that your DPS meter augmented talent tree (i.e. highest possible dps spec) and your DPS meter augmented rotation (i.e. highest possible DPS rotation) does the same DPS even if you turn the meter off?

 

Am I the only one who's seeing a problem here?

 

Having a DPS meter helps tons in squeezing the last % out of your character. Just because you turn it off doesn't mean that extra % will go away.

 

Stop contradicting yourself.

And actually, having a DPS meter doesn't help tons in squeezing the last % out of your character. Playing well does.

[NoxiousAlby]

Okay, that's great for MYSELF, but I am a guild leader.

 

I'm also the tank.

 

Let's say I'm main tanking a boss.

 

For simplicity's sake, let's say it's an 8 man Op and I have 5 DPSers.

 

Now, I need to ensure each of those 5 are doing roughly 20% of the damage (again, for simplicity's sake I'm ignoring my DPS output as a tank)

 

If one is doing 15%, and the rest are picking up the slack, I either need to improve that player or remove him in favour of someone who can do 20% of the DPS.

 

If one player is doing 30% and the rest are picking up the 70%, I need to know who my best DPSer is so I can assign him to teach the rest to be better.

 

If you're in an OP and you're not pulling your weight, a guild leader needs to know this.

 

I don't care about how nice you are, I care about your ability to pull weight.

 

Again this causes problems within itself, not saying this will happen but couldnt it lead to some classes being left out of raids over other classes because their recorded dps is significantly higher.

[AlpsStranger]

You honestly don't see my point? You are the people arguing that this is entirely optional, and as such you aren't forcing anyone to use it. Well as a matter of fact, this isn't optional and you are forcing people to use it.

 

Therefore your argument holds the same value as anyone else's on this matter, and I'm pretty sure there's more people that don't want this than there are people like the two of us, who don't mind working with numbers even while we're not at work.

 

I don't really recall saying it would be optional for bleeding edge content.

[AlpsStranger]

Again this causes problems within itself, not saying this will happen but couldnt it lead to some classes being left out of raids over other classes because their recorded dps is significantly higher.

 

Then Bioware has to up the DPS on those classes that aren't up to snuff.

 

OH NOES BALANCE CHANGES!!!! WHY CAN'T WE GO BACK TO N64 CUZ PATCHES SCARE ME :eek:

[Soazak]

I would like to use addons.

 

What I don't understand, is why other people care that I have that option. No one is asking for addons to be forced on everyone. If you don't like them, don't use them.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Soazak

[Battousaien]

You may notice that this gets ignored by people that arent you, this is the third or fourth time I've posted it in one of these discussions and the numerophobes always seem to skim over it, or have no reply for it. Either way, it will be ignored by those rabidly against having performance measured.

 

It will be ignored, but we can always try

 

 

Actually, the person you're responding to makes a lot of sense. He's saying that there are different types of players and that people should play with other players that have the same preferences and goals ingame.

 

There are the opmization-focused players (often called elitists by those not of the same player-type). They want to push the top DPS numbers and have the right gear / spec /mods. They want to beat the hardest content. These players need and want a tool like Recount to help them optimize their performance.

 

Then there's the laid-back / RP players. They just want to hang out, explore the world, chat with friends, level alts to enjoy the other class quests, etc... These players don't need Recount at all and they won't really come into many situations where its use can be detrimental to them.

 

Both are perfectly fine ways to play the game. A good game will cater to both kinds. The optimization players will generally be quite outspoken about their preference: They'll discuss gear, performance, tactics openly. They won't be mistaken for RP-players easily. There's a ton of laid-back players that know that their playstyle isn't well-suited for the high-end content and consequently they won't focus on it.

 

The problem comes with the fact that there are plenty of players that want to do the high-end content, but that are unwilling to put in the effort that it requires. They'll play with a suboptimal spec or weird gear because it is their "style". If you mix these players with the optimization-players, you'll get conflicts. The boss doesn't die and noone knows why. With a Recount-like tool, the group can determine who is pulling their weight and who isn't and adjust their setup accordingly.

 

This means that it's easier for the players to be sorted into groups that suit their playing style. The hardcore players will have the tool they need. The laid-back players have a tool they won't need, but that won't bother them. The only people negatively affected will be the freeloaders, that want to do the challenging high-end content, but don't want to put in any effort.

 

And I don't see the problem with that.

 

And this, RachelAnne, is exactly what the person you quoted was trying to say, but in less words. In most of the games I've played, it's typically the hardcore players that have the most respect for other playing styles. They have a simple requirement though: If you want to tag along, pull your own weight.

 

All nay-sayers - read this.

[Truga]

I don't really recall saying it would be optional for bleeding edge content.

 

Then why even bother? You can have hard content without meters just as you can have it with meters. There's literally no difference between the two, bar said meters.

 

Edit @ the guy above me: There's a huge difference between need and want, read up on it.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Truga

[Yfelsung]

You honestly don't see my point? You are the people arguing that this is entirely optional, and as such you aren't forcing anyone to use it. Well as a matter of fact, this isn't optional and you are forcing people to use it.

 

Therefore your argument holds the same value as anyone else's on this matter, and I'm pretty sure there's more people that don't want this than there are people like the two of us, who don't mind working with numbers even while we're not at work.

 

But you've, and others, have argued you can accomplish what the meters do without the meters.

 

You may not have said it, but someone mentioned using a stop watch and watching your numbers.

 

So if that's true, that you can maximize without recount, then if they balance around recount it wouldn't matter as you can do it without recount.

 

Right?

[AlpsStranger]

Then why even bother? You can have hard content without meters just as you can have it with meters. There's literally no difference between the two, bar said meters.

 

Because I hate not having easily accessible objective information. Why guess on scratch paper? I'm already at a computer, so why arbitrarily require a stopwatch-and-#2-pencil solution?

 

Furthermore, why are people who can barely run the game more special than people that can't run the game at all? If person A has a computer that runs SWTOR well enough that he can handle addons, person B has a computer that is barely squeaking by, and person C can't run the game at all, then why should person A or C really care about the tiny slice of people who fall exactly into category B?

Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Yfelsung]

Again this causes problems within itself, not saying this will happen but couldnt it lead to some classes being left out of raids over other classes because their recorded dps is significantly higher.

 

Well if a class can outDPS another class when everything else is equal, then something needs to be done about the underachieving class and Bioware needs to be informed of this.

 

I need the best DPS. If a class is incapable of doing that, it's not my fault, I didn't design the class. Wallowing in ignorance and not knowing that a class is subpar DPS does nothing positive for the community.

[NoxiousAlby]

Then Bioware has to up the DPS on those classes that aren't up to snuff.

 

OH NOES BALANCE CHANGES!!!! WHY CAN'T WE GO BACK TO N64 CUZ PATCHES SCARE ME :eek:

 

Dont act childish.

 

Balance isnt as easy as you assume, balancing for pve doesnt always work for pvp & visa versa. If one particular class performs better in raids then thats the class hardcore wannabes will want to take. Adding recount will cause more problems than it will solve especially considering that players are already raiding without it and its not a game breaker.

[Bansheedragon]

If one is doing 15%, and the rest are picking up the slack, I either need to improve that player or remove him in favour of someone who can do 20% of the DPS.

 

Why?

 

What does it really matter if one person does 5% less DPS as long as the boss dies?

 

Why is it so EXTREMELY important that everyone does EXACTLY the same amount of DPS?

 

Do you play this game for the numbers or for the entertainment?

[Truga]

But you've, and others, have argued you can accomplish what the meters do without the meters.

 

You may not have said it, but someone mentioned using a stop watch and watching your numbers.

 

So if that's true, that you can maximize without recount, then if they balance around recount it wouldn't matter as you can do it without recount.

 

Right?

 

Except, it'll take me days to figure out what recount tells me in 10 seconds, making recount mandatory for any competitive gaming at all.

[Rawrie]

yes ofc we need recount, to know whos bad and kick him out

[Jahor]

You may notice that this gets ignored by people that arent you, this is the third or fourth time I've posted it in one of these discussions and the numerophobes always seem to skim over it, or have no reply for it. Either way, it will be ignored by those rabidly against having performance measured.

 

We had some guys like you in our raids too.

 

First they cryed loudest when it their class gear drobbed. So they where the first with full sets while other had maybe just 1 item of the set. If they had been a little bit kind they appeared the next to raids but some instandly logged out when they go the last item and never joined again.

Some other guys got their set and sarted with "go go next dungeon for next set" EQUAL if other had their sets too or not. They just gave a sh.. if other people wanted to get the full set too or not. They whined, flamed, rages as long as we either kicked them or moved to the next dungeon ... where they tryed to start the same game again.

 

Over all it just matter IF you manage to finish an encounter but it doesn't matter if you finish him in 3 or 5 minutes!

[AlpsStranger]

Except, it'll take me days to figure out what recount tells me in 10 seconds, making recount mandatory for any competitive gaming at all.

 

Right, so busywork is rewarded over actual reflexes and skill.

 

In a world where we can do all the busywork in 10 seconds those gifted with more raw reflexes and situational awareness come out on top. ( Note that I'm not assuming or implying that this will be *me* personally )

 

In a world where we need a scratch pad and stopwatch to optimize we get the 'A for effort' scenario.

 

Both are fine in their way I guess, but I think the first choice is generally considered more "gamerlike."

Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Ecunami]

Yes. Although with a combat log being released I believe this will be available as well wether Bioware wants it or not.

 

These tools are pretty much essential though

[Yfelsung]

Except, it'll take me days to figure out what recount tells me in 10 seconds, making recount mandatory for any competitive gaming at all.

 

Okay, so it'll take you days.

 

You're making that choice to handicap yourself.

 

You have every right to choose to handicap yourself.

 

You do not, however, have the right to tell me what I can't have because you don't want it.

 

That's prohibitionist logic, it doesn't fly unless you're willing to apply it to everything.