Can you address our concerns?

[sac-]

More like 1/2 of the players - "This is too hard."

1/4 of the players - "There are statistically proven issues with this class's performance vs other classes."

1/4 "No, you suck L2P!"

 

The people wrong in this equation are the L2P'ers by the way.

 

'Statistically proven issues'? I'm sorry, could you please tell me WHERE those numbers came from? AFAIK, there's no combat log, so how can you 'statistically' prove something? Don't aswer with 'warzones', seriously. Warzones can't prove ANYTHING regards dps. Ranged classes with high AoE and high burst damage will OBVIOUSLY do more damage, if you can't see that I think we have no further quarrel. And more damage DOES NOT means better dps, you know that, right?

 

Sorry but the only thing I can read from all this is people crying about how they can't hit two or three buttons and kill everything. It also looks like you NEVER played a melee class. In every game, ever, everywhere, melee classes were ALWAYS 'penalized' just for being melee and this won't change. Root and snare had and always will leave you useless for a short period of time, that's why you have skills like Saber Throw, Crippling Throw, Displacement, Fleetfooted, Dispatch, Transcendence, Resolute, Freezing Force, Force/Zealous/Guardian Leap, etc. I could continue but you get the picture. Have you ever played a warrior against a frost mage in WoW? Yea that's ******** but this is how melee classes work, if you can't deal with it the only thing I can see you doing is playing another class. Like someone in this same thread said, if they do buff Knights/Warriors somehow, imo, this class will be almost unbeatable for those who know how to play properly. And no, I don't want that. Killing people with three skills isn't fun.

 

Also, I can guarantee that people who can't beat class bosses are, somehow, doing it wrong. Be it a sentinel, who aren't supposed to tank ****, using Kira, a dps companion, 24/7 or maybe not using interrupts at all, not having a medpack/stim, not gearing up and instead grabing every single lockbox from quests rewards, ignoring the fact that Force Leap is also an interrupt, or just trying to beat them 5 levels below (yea, I've seen that), the list goes on. And don't be naive, read the other classes forums or just pay attention to general chat in-game, you'll see people saying they can't defeat 'x' class boss, it's not a Knight/Warrior exclusive 'problem'.

 

With that said, I do think I could use a CC like Force Lift and that Pommel Strike feels pretty useless, at least for me (guardian), right now, since I'm not Defense spec'd. Nevertheless, sentinels have their CC to droids so I don't know. They could also make Sundering Strike replace regular Strike for guardians, I wouldn't complaing about that, wouldn't mind if they don't either. The current engine with the broken ability delay makes things a lot worse, I agree, but I guess they'll fix it eventually. If they don't fix it, well, I can always quit.

 

Then again, I can almost see, once there's a guide everywhere telling you what your 'rotation' is, or how you should do you talent tree, or 'how to beat x' all this cry will basically disappear.

 

TL;DR

 

Yes, L2P.

Edited January 10, 2012 by sac-

[urborror]

I abandoned my Jedi Sentinel character at level 26 after dying 20 times to Valis and having no money for a speeder. No single player RPG EVER killed me 20 times when being 2 levels above the content.

 

Moved into Sith Sorcerer and never looked back. I felt pretty bad about abandoning the story, especially when I hear it's the "main" story. I'm basically just waiting for them to fix the class.

 

From dabbling in trooper and playing Sith Sorcerer extensively, Jedi Sentinel is hard mode, and at some quest bosses, it vastly exceeds hard modes of most every single-player RPG. People who use a lot of MMO acronyms might disagree, but then Bioware should be able to tell what sorts of players are disagreeing (the non-casual crowd.) A kid might pick Jedi Knight by default, and that kid just chose to play a frustratingly hard game he might not like for that reason.

 

I always feel like I'm doing more damage with my healer Sorcerer. I can take out bosses and mobs while being levels below the content. If I die, a new approach usually does the trick, and teaches me something about how to use the class.

 

Dying with my Jedi Sentinel, I always felt like the game simply wasn't giving me the tools to win. I was so underpowered I remember "role-playing" that I was actually a really weak, scrub Jedi! Not exactly what the story-writers wanted, I think (although their 4 heroes-on-1 pirate champion boss battle mechanics basically ruin that kind of roleplaying, anyway.)

[McVade]

I don't have issues with my Sentinel (level 44 right now), in all honesty, but that being said... I totally understand why I don't.

 

These are keybindings for all my skills/consumables/companion stuff that I use.

 

1-7

Q, E, R, F, Z, X, C, V

Ctrl-Q, Ctrl-E, Ctrl-R, Ctrl-F, Ctrl-Z, Ctrl-X, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V

Ctrl 1-5

Alt 1-5

Shift 1-5

Mouse 4-5

Ctrl Mouse 4-5.

 

Adding that up, that's.... 46 keybindings I use regularly. I'm approaching WoW WOTLK Gladiator Hunter here and I haven't even reached level cap AND there's no macros here!

 

I abandoned my Jedi Sentinel character at level 26 after dying 20 times to Valis and having no money for a speeder. No single player RPG EVER killed me 20 times when being 2 levels above the content.

 

Valis was obnoxious. Spec Watchman and use a 6 second kick to interrupt his lightning. He falls like a sack of bricks then.

Edited January 10, 2012 by McVade

[arthasess]

I agree with 90% of this. Got sick of my sent (Such a disapointment) and tried a BH and Inq. On my level 10 inq i do more damage in pvp. Easily.

Pros of jedi

-Amazing story- love it

-Amazing companions (Story anyway)

 

Negatives

No use for us in pve

Incredibly difficult quests

Pvp is a joke- Leap in, knock back, root, dead.

 

So what we need- Easier boss characters , sure they are meant to be epic but when you just CAN NOT do the quest at that level, its broken. No other class has any of the issues we do.

-Some sort of stun, Eveyone else gets one so why not us?

- Some sort of knockback

-Slightly higher survivability

-Some other sort of stun breaker.

 

I mean COME ON BW how many topics like this have there been? 40? 50? How many responces from you? 10? O...wait...none....

 

If you dont start listening to your community (Where you get your money from) unfourtunatly (As i love the game) i can see this going the same way as rift, espically if pvp problems keep going.

[McVade]

I agree with 90% of this. Got sick of my sent (Such a disapointment) and tried a BH and Inq. On my level 10 inq i do more damage in pvp. Easily.

Pros of jedi

-Amazing story- love it

-Amazing companions (Story anyway)

 

Negatives

No use for us in pve

Incredibly difficult quests

Pvp is a joke- Leap in, knock back, root, dead.

 

So what we need- Easier boss characters , sure they are meant to be epic but when you just CAN NOT do the quest at that level, its broken. No other class has any of the issues we do.

-Some sort of stun, Eveyone else gets one so why not us?

- Some sort of knockback

-Slightly higher survivability

-Some other sort of stun breaker.

 

I mean COME ON BW how many topics like this have there been? 40? 50? How many responces from you? 10? O...wait...none....

 

If you dont start listening to your community (Where you get your money from) unfourtunatly (As i love the game) i can see this going the same way as rift, espically if pvp problems keep going.

 

Honestly, Spec Focus for PvP (second Leap on a 15 second cooldown) as a Sentinel. Also, never leap in. If you get in melee from the blind side and snare them, they cannot get away from you... because any gap opener they have, you'll have a trump card for it.

[Montegue]

Yeah. I do have a sense of entitlement.

 

I know.

 

I feel the Jedi Knight should be just as effective as every other class and have just as much ease of use and utility as every other class.

 

 

No, you feel, as you have always felt, that the Jedi Knight advanced class you have chosen to play needs to be top dog because it dual wields. You long ago gave your reasoning for this argument, and it was pretty much shot down by the devs back then (two weapons means more enhancements, thus Sentinels are entitled to top DPS).

 

I think I am entitled to not having to work five times harder than everyone else in order to get comparable results.

 

You haven't proven that you have to work "5 times harder than everyone else", and that's the problem. It only "feels" that way to you.

 

By the way, Duels are *not* a good way to test PvP balance, and are *certainly* not an accurate way to test PvE balance. PvP is a team effort, not a solo effort. How you perform when working with your team is key, not necessarily how you perform one-on-one. The Dev team isn't going to be balancing classes one on one.

 

If I am going to be on par for DPS which is the only thing that I can do as a Sentinel then I gorram feel that I should be ON PAR with other classes for utility.

 

And you are. You bring a buff to the table, in addition to mobility and off tanking equal to any other class that fills your role. If not better, given certain defensive cooldowns you get as a core element of your class.

 

 

Do I have a half dozen stuns? No. I have one stun. That is channeled and extremely short duration. I have ONE mez, that is AoE and on a long cool down, that is sub par to similar abilities of other classes.

 

So, you have crowd control, a stun, a buff, more movement options than other classes, and solid damage.

 

Being THE ONLY class IN THE GAME to lack ANY KIND OF PUSH AND PULL MECHANIC WHAT SO EVER is not a "feeling" it is a fact.

 

I would argue that Jedi Knights need Force Push at level 1-10. It's such a useful, iconic ability that it should not be postponed or relegated to the Guardian only.

 

 

Yes, there is a problem. We actually have been running tests. We have done duels.

 

Sorry, but as I said above, duels are not a good source of data. They are completely anecdotal, and irrelevant because the game's not balanced around 1 v 1 pvp. They have absolutely no value in terms of PvE balance.

 

 

This is an attack that requires the user to stay in melee range and on a target without the use of a stun of any kind without suffering a knock back, stun, mez, root, or even a snare. This attack also requires a 15 second cooldown to expire before it can be used again.

 

Master strike must be set up. When you set it up, it hits like a truck.

 

 

Montegue... Look at my track record on predictions.

 

You don't really want that, do you?

 

I predicted a population imbalance based on BioWare's marketing strategy. I was right. There currently is a population imbalance. BioWare said, "No, we have no reason to think that." and I was right.

 

Correlation is not causation. You can make the argument that their marketing strategy caused an imbalance, but you have no evidence to support a causal relationship between the two.

 

I told you (and everyone else) in the old JK forums that Satele Shan was nearly killed by Malgus in hope. I was argued back by you, Malor, and a ton of other people that I was crazy and that she had everything under control.

 

That's not entirely accurate, Walsh. You were told that she stood her ground to Malgus, and with help from her friends, completely kicked his butt. Throwing him into a mountain, and then bringing the cliff face down on his head was no small feat.

 

Do I wish she would have simply out fought him? Sure. But again, you have no evidence that this video contributed to the imbalance we are seeing.

 

 

I told Georg Zoeller, I pointed out to him, that having a class with no utility would have severe problems. I told him that they would not be favored in groups. I told him that people would dislike them and if they didn't have a DPS advantage people would not want a class that lacks utility over a class that does.

 

Except you don't have a class with "no" utility. You have a class with a great deal of utility. Is it exactly what you want in PvP? No. But it does carry with it significant mobility, a solid buff, a Crowd Control ability, and a stun. Should there be more? Who knows. I agree a knockback would be nice, but your use of hyperbole here paints a false picture, and takes away from your overall point.

 

I have repeatedly been correct. I have been right every single time Montegue.

 

No, you haven't. You claimed that the Guardian was going to be a buffing class. You were wrong. You claimed it wasn't going to have a viable DPS build. You were wrong. There's a pretty long laundry list of things you were completely incorrect about. So please, don't say you were right "every single time". You weren't.

 

 

In each and every time I have said X would happen because of Y. I have been completely correct. So just this once Montegue, give me the benefit of the doubt. I have a very good track record here.

 

You cannot claim a causal relationship without evidence, Walsh. Where is your evidence showing X happened because of Y. Right now you are simply arguing a post hoc fallacy.

 

 

Is the Sentinel unplayable? Of course not. Is it lacking versus other classes?

 

Yes.

 

 

Which you can't really prove, unless you have a log to work with. In your experience, it's underwhelming. Ok, that's fine. That's your experience. There are others who have had a different experience. The only way to really show an imbalance is with a great deal of data compared to a great deal of data on other classes that compete for your role. That requires a combat log.

 

 

 

Either we need to be top DPS hands down or we need some extra utility.

 

That's never going to happen and you know it. They said before release that they were not interested in making any class that fills a role "top dog". Each individual intended build is like a Pure class in the other MMO.

 

I don't care which one they give us, but this needs to be priority number one.

 

Why, because it's *your* priority number one?

 

I know my class Montegue. I know my binds. I have given myself every possible tool and I have crunched numbers and theory crafted for hours. I have gotten friends to stand there while I tried different rotations out after dueling them to see what gives me the highest yield.

 

That you are aware of. You have done everything you could think of. That doesn't mean you're doing it right. Your experiences differ from the experiences of others, and unless and until you can provide some solid testing data beyond just your anecdotal experiences and duels, you're not going to have solid ground to stand on.

 

In PVP I can pretty much Solo any class that isn't a dedicated healer, and at least against those I am taking up their attention as they heal themselves.

 

If this is true, it stands in *stark* contrast to your overall position. If you can pretty much solo any class that isn't a dedicated healer, one could very easily argue that the Sentinel is more than fine.

 

A single 6 second unchanneled melee stun. Precisely the kind of thing that the Imperial Agent Operative has.

 

If I recall correctly, the Jedi Knight can buy a talented un-channeled stun. Focus tree, yes?

[Vember]

I abandoned my Jedi Sentinel character at level 26 after dying 20 times to Valis and having no money for a speeder. No single player RPG EVER killed me 20 times when being 2 levels above the content.

 

 

I killed Valis first try at 27 using Kira whom I haven't put a single piece of gear on since I got her ( i use T7 ) because she is required for the quest.

 

 

Interrupts win that fight, its not hard.

[urborror]

"L2P!!!!!111" people (only in this thread are "complainers" the cohesive, literate, soft-spoken and even-tempered faction): no thread like this exists under any other class. Maybe two of the dozens of people echoing frustrations have even threatened to quit.

 

The "valis" threads have 32,000 views: most of these views come from Google, organically, from players looking for advice, because they keep dying. No other class has any phenomenon like this corresponding to a boss encounter.

 

This class is imbalanced, and I already quit (didn't quit the game, quit the class)--and I love the other classes, gameplay-wise. I feel powerful and the game is fun. I really liked the Jedi Knight story, though, so I'd like to go back to the class.

 

"Everybody always complains about class imbalances!"--maybe, but I'm not complaining about my Sith Sorcerer or Trooper. Nobody's complaining about their Sith Sorcerers or Troopers, from what I see, whereas the majority of responders hear echo the basic frustrations of the articulate OP.

[Windrush]

Haha that last post was funny. I love my JK guardian. It seems the kiddies want everything handed to them . 1 button mash own... lol. I like having those guys are actually because they are simple to kill. They can't figure out or research their character. I can tank and dps in pve and pvp. I got so many combinations to throw at players or npc's. As for pvp in our server Rakata mind prison. The highest damage total in battleground has been a JK which I can't imagine how but I am getting their. Insane totale damage and this guy que solo unless he ques with lowbies. INSANE... I've played a gnome warrior vs mage haha and i know it can be frustrating but its still doable. Just need to step back and read all your abilities with patience and talents as well.

[Rehn_Freemark]

Bah, JK definitely needs some refining, but as long as people will keep complaining because they are too dumb to kill a main quest boss, nothing good is going to come out of it. I beat Valis as combat (by far the worst Sentinel spec) with hardly any issue, it's not a class problem if you are unable to put your back to the wall and interrupt at every cd.

 

The main problem for me remains pvp, which for sentinel is a joke. It's simply impossible to be on par with other classes considering that this game's pvp is all about cc and knockbacks, and we have 0 of each. Since we don't have anywhere near the burst damage to be able to say '**** CC', most of the time we are completely useless, and frankly, just take a mental note of how things go in your warzones when you have a very large number of Sentinels/Marauders playing... on my server I often get groups with like 4-5 sentinels and we always, always get massacred.

 

And no, before anyone brings it up, the defensive cooldowns aren't the issue here. Yes they are pretty good, but the problem isn't how much damage we take or don't take, the problem is spending 2 hours into a stun, then getting knockbacked, then snared, all the while being completely unable to do absolutely anything (I know it's not easy on anyone with this system, but at least ranged classes can shoot from a distance, we also have to cover the gaps and it's not easy even with force leap).

 

Plus, combat, which is supposedly our pvp talent tree, is totally worthless. Spamming buttons as Watchman does way more damage than following Combat's dps rotation to the letter, and I'm not kidding. I hear a lot of people saying even Focus is better than Combat.

[urborror]

<as long as people will keep complaining because they are too dumb to kill a main quest boss, nothing good is going to come out of it.>

 

Actually Bioware just announced here that they're changing some of these bits in particular for the next patch, presumably since re-designing the entire class will take some time. They're addressing the OP's concerns.

 

You suggest using an exploit (stand against the opposite wall) to beat Valis?. It's kind of weak. I have no doubt these bosses are rather easy with the right strategy and coordination, even without exploits, but the difficulty level is still way out of sync with the other classes, which are reasonably challenging (probably more challenging than KOTOR 1 and 2, at least.)

 

The lead gameplay designer writes like he has a 145 IQ, so I assume he listens to people who make sense when they talk, like the OP. It's probably the best way to get Bioware's attention, if you have a valid point.

[Valves]

I abandoned my Jedi Sentinel character at level 26 after dying 20 times to Valis and having no money for a speeder. No single player RPG EVER killed me 20 times when being 2 levels above the content.

 

I died once and that's only because I lagged really hard, but I am playing a guardian? I'm level 26 now and had absolutely no trouble affording a speeder, are you not using your crew skills or something?

[SarimRune]

To the OP:

 

Please stop saying: "we" and "our". You mean to say "I" and "my"

[Rehn_Freemark]

Most of the things he said, I agree with, so he's fine to say 'we' and 'our' meaning me and him. Problem?

[Tedroni]

I really enjoy my Sentinel. But he really, really needs a better self-heal. I have to jump through 6 hoops to get any heals on my Sentinel without a healing pet.

 

Build up Focus? check! Overload Saber? check! Cauterize? check! Crippling Throw? check! Zen? ... Zen?! ... crud

 

Build up Centering... Build up Focus just to build up Centering... Build up Centering... Repeat as necessary... check; Build up Focus? check; Overload Saber? cooldown's almost up; Overload Saber? check; Cauterize? check; Crippling Throw? check; Zen? check!

(+140 HP, +80 HP)} x3 ticks against a HP pool of 8.5k-9k and half that for my companion/group members.

 

And I've been taking damage this whole time, and wheedling down my mobs...

 

This doesn't work against normal level mobs. They die before Zen get's activated.

This barely works against strong mobs. They die after 2 ticks, even without that Centering mess up.

This works against elites, but it doesn't heal for enough HP to make a real difference. I get hit for more HP than is restored while I'm jumping through the six hoops. And all this time what am I looking at? Not the beautiful game. Not the exciting combat. My cooldows and my buff numbers are the only things I can afford to watch, else I'll miss a hoop and get no heals.

 

Two things would make this a better class to play:

1. Saber Ward reflects blaster bolts back into mobs instead of just away. It's an aggressive class, my blocks should be aggressive.

2. Gimme a decent self-heal that has a 20 or 30 second cooldown AND that I can activate by pushing one or two buttons, not twenty.

 

BioWare/EA, do you even realize that YOU NEVER TOLD ME WHAT SKILLS HAVE BURN EFFECTS?! I had to figure that out myself!

 

==========================================================

 

On an un-related note: why are so many Guardians posting here? Our problems are not your problems... I see Guardians saying we're spoiled 'cause we're having a hard time, and I see Sentinels posting that Sentinel help threads are hit many times more often than any other class. If you have advice, Guardians, I'll listen (though I think you, as a heavy armor class, have little understanding of my problems as a semi-squishy class). If you're just being haughty, take it someplace else, please. My frustration levels don't need that.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Tedroni

[sac-]

"L2P!!!!!111" people (only in this thread are "complainers" the cohesive, literate, soft-spoken and even-tempered faction): no thread like this exists under any other class. Maybe two of the dozens of people echoing frustrations have even threatened to quit.

 

The "valis" threads have 32,000 views: most of these views come from Google, organically, from players looking for advice, because they keep dying. No other class has any phenomenon like this corresponding to a boss encounter.

 

This class is imbalanced, and I already quit (didn't quit the game, quit the class)--and I love the other classes, gameplay-wise. I feel powerful and the game is fun. I really liked the Jedi Knight story, though, so I'd like to go back to the class.

 

"Everybody always complains about class imbalances!"--maybe, but I'm not complaining about my Sith Sorcerer or Trooper. Nobody's complaining about their Sith Sorcerers or Troopers, from what I see, whereas the majority of responders hear echo the basic frustrations of the articulate OP.

 

I could easily argue that it's just because Jedi Knight is the most iconic class in the game and almost every first time MMO player would play this. Thus the high number of viewers. And you can't even argue with that because we don't know ****. This game doesn't have a combat log, or a 'wowcensus' like site. I won't even say you can sum that to the fact it's a 'hard' class to play because it's not, this class works like every warrior type class in any other game. I defeated Valis on the 1st try and I didn't 'exploit' anything (assuming that keeping your back to a wall is exploiting, rofl), in fact I didn't even know he had a knockback untill I read those forums, I just did the basic, interrupts.

 

 

Actually Bioware just announced here that they're changing some of these bits in particular for the next patch, presumably since re-designing the entire class will take some time. They're addressing the OP's concerns.

 

Could you please link me to where they said that? The only thing I could find is that they're changing the last class boss fight. Nowhere they said "re-designing the entire class will take some time".

Edited January 10, 2012 by sac-

[Tedroni]

I could easily argue that it's just because Jedi Knight is the most iconic class in the game and almost every first time MMO player would play this. Thus the high number of viewers.

 

First time MMO players don't often go to the class threads. I know I didn't in my first MMO (LotRO). Nor did the *vast* majority of my friends who also started their MMO experience with that game. This would seem to imply that those with at least some MMO experience are having a hard time as well, and it's not just the n00bs.

 

And you can't even argue with that because we don't know ****.

 

But clearly I can by using personal experience.

 

This game doesn't have a combat log, or a 'wowcensus' like site. I won't even say you can sum that to the fact it's a 'hard' class to play because it's not, this class works like every warrior type class in any other game.

 

My first/main toon in LotRO was a Champion, which is very similar to the Sentinel in many regards: DW, DPS focus, off-tank option, relatively simple to play, quite a few survival issues... And I can tell you that even as I was learning MMOs with LotRO at the same time as learning my Champ: the Sentinel is harder. My Champ couldn't block, parry, OR evade mob attacks, and my Champ was easier to learn than my Sentinel.

 

I defeated Valis on the 1st try and I didn't 'exploit' anything (assuming that keeping your back to a wall is exploiting, rofl), in fact I didn't even know he had a knockback untill I read those forums, I just did the basic, interrupts.

 

So personal experience is a valid measure? Good. I see lots of personal experience referenced in this thread (one guy said "I died 20 times!" for example) but you seem to insist that yours is somehow more relevant than theirs. I beat Valis on my first try as well, but that doesn't mean the class isn't hard. I've died lots of times where I thought I shouldn't have. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe that one elite was *supposed* to kick my butt all by himself, even when I solo'd a champion-tier mob that was a few levels under me the day before...

 

Could you please link me to where they said that? The only thing I could find is that they're changing the last class boss fight. Nowhere they said "re-designing the entire class will take some time".

 

I would like to see this as well!

[Vember]

I really enjoy my Sentinel. But he really, really needs a better self-heal. I have to jump through 6 hoops to get any heals on my Sentinel without a healing pet.

 

Build up Focus? check! Overload Saber? check! Cauterize? check! Crippling Throw? check! Zen? ... Zen?! ... crud

 

Build up Centering... Build up Focus just to build up Centering... Build up Centering... Repeat as necessary... check; Build up Focus? check; Overload Saber? cooldown's almost up; Overload Saber? check; Cauterize? check; Crippling Throw? check; Zen? check!

(+140 HP, +80 HP)} x3 ticks against a HP pool of 8.5k-9k and half that for my companion/group members.

 

You could play Jedi shadow and only get 1% of your health on random DoT crits that you have no control over.

 

Yea. Grass isn't always greener, is it.

[Tedroni]

You could play Jedi shadow and only get 1% of your health on random DoT crits that you have no control over.

 

Yea. Grass isn't always greener, is it.

 

I do play a Shadow. And even though he's a light armor class, he has more survivability than my Sentinel.

[ProfessorWalsh]

You haven't proven that you have to work "5 times harder than everyone else", and that's the problem. It only "feels" that way to you.

 

Oh really now?

 

3 weak con mobs. Level 50.

 

Jedi Sentinel:

 

Choose target

Force Leap

Opportune Strike

(If opponent isn't dead) Zealous Strike

Switch target

(If opponent was killed) Zealous Strike

Force Sweep

Pommel Strike

Switch target (As my current target should be dead.)

Strike

Precision Slash

Blade Rush

Blade Storm (Target will most likely be dead, if not...)

Master Strike

 

Between 12 and 13 key presses or mouse clicks.

 

Here is how you do it on a Trooper:

 

Activate Mortar Shell

Select Ground Target

Use any shot skills to take on any stragglers (Usually 1-3 shots)

 

That is between 3 and 5 key presses or mouse clicks.

 

So sure... Technically 5 times isn't accurate. Between 2 and 4 times more work.

 

By the way, Duels are *not* a good way to test PvP balance, and are *certainly* not an accurate way to test PvE balance. PvP is a team effort, not a solo effort. How you perform when working with your team is key, not necessarily how you perform one-on-one. The Dev team isn't going to be balancing classes one on one.

 

Duels are *however* a great way to determine how much damage a rotation does when used on a non-resistant target in the best possible setting. Unless you are saying that the Sentinel is the only class in the game that is supposed to have to have another class to be viable.

 

And you are. You bring a buff to the table, in addition to mobility and off tanking equal to any other class that fills your role. If not better, given certain defensive cooldowns you get as a core element of your class.

 

Oh please.

 

The buff is nice yes.

 

I don't bring the off-tanking. I don't have the CC of other DPS classes. That is proven. They have longer, better, and less intensive abilities.

 

So, you have crowd control, a stun, a buff, more movement options than other classes, and solid damage.

 

No. We have a crowd control stun that also stuns us.

We have a buff that is fairly nice.

We do NOT have more movement options than other classes. Not even close.

Our damage is solid, but we lack the utility to make it work.

 

I would argue that Jedi Knights need Force Push at level 1-10. It's such a useful, iconic ability that it should not be postponed or relegated to the Guardian only.

 

Especially since it can equate to instant kills in 2 out of 3 Warzones.

 

Sorry, but as I said above, duels are not a good source of data. They are completely anecdotal, and irrelevant because the game's not balanced around 1 v 1 pvp. They have absolutely no value in terms of PvE balance.

 

See above Monty.

 

I explained that they are a great indicator of learning which rotations have the potential for the highest damage.

 

Master strike must be set up. When you set it up, it hits like a truck.

 

It takes more work to set up, is more easily stopped, and does less damage than every other set up ability in the game actually.

 

You don't really want that, do you?

 

Try me. You don't intimidate me at all.

 

Correlation is not causation. You can make the argument that their marketing strategy caused an imbalance, but you have no evidence to support a causal relationship between the two.

 

Oh come on, that is a cop out argument and you know it.

 

That's not entirely accurate, Walsh. You were told that she stood her ground to Malgus, and with help from her friends, completely kicked his butt. Throwing him into a mountain, and then bringing the cliff face down on his head was no small feat.

 

Oh I would so provide the actual arguments if the forum hadn't been wiped. You know that wasn't the argument being made.

 

Do I wish she would have simply out fought him? Sure. But again, you have no evidence that this video contributed to the imbalance we are seeing.

 

Basic marketing trends and consumer psychology.

 

Except you don't have a class with "no" utility. You have a class with a great deal of utility. Is it exactly what you want in PvP? No. But it does carry with it significant mobility, a solid buff, a Crowd Control ability, and a stun. Should there be more? Who knows. I agree a knockback would be nice, but your use of hyperbole here paints a false picture, and takes away from your overall point.

 

It has the weakest mobility in the game of the classes that have mobility.

It has the worst crowd control mechanic in the game aside from a really good snare.

 

It has the worst stun mechanic in the game and the only stun mechanic that specifically prohibits us from dealing damage to the target with our abilities while using it.

 

No, you haven't. You claimed that the Guardian was going to be a buffing class. You were wrong.

 

*Buzzer*

I claimed the Guardian was going to be a buffing class and a tanking class. Which it completely was. The thing that changed was that people whined and complained until BioWare changed it. That isn't me being wrong, that is a change in design.

 

You claimed it wasn't going to have a viable DPS build. You were wrong.

 

*Buzzer*

It didn't have a viable DPS build and it wasn't intended originally to have one. They made a change to the design process based on complaints. That wasn't me being wrong at all, that was them changing the design.

 

They even explained that to us.

 

There's a pretty long laundry list of things you were completely incorrect about. So please, don't say you were right "every single time". You weren't.

 

No Monty. I actually was. I've not actually been wrong yet. Everything you tried to debunk we can show was changed by BioWare based completely on feedback due to the implementation in beta. Meaning, quite frankly, that I was correct until BioWare changed their minds.

 

 

You cannot claim a causal relationship without evidence, Walsh. Where is your evidence showing X happened because of Y. Right now you are simply arguing a post hoc fallacy.

 

That is a cop out.

 

I looked at what was happening. Combined what was happening with my knowledge of the psychological base of the target audience.

 

You say that you feel my methodology was wrong. I was still right. I said it would cause a population imbalance. BioWare claimed that they have no reason to suspect there would be a population imbalance. I explained to them exactly what was going to happen.

 

Now... You may argue that you believe that I am wrong but I predicted the correct outcome... I predicted the correct outcome despite all the "dev's data" which, theoretically, they should have had for more data than I did.

 

So either...

 

A) I am psychic.

B) I understand the consumer market.

C) I simply guessed right a staggering number of times.

 

A is not the case. At least not to my knowledge.

 

B is certainly plausible given that I was trained in that kind of thing and have a formal education to back it up.

 

C is unlikely because even in the two incidents you tried to quote both times I was completely correct until changes were made which BioWare announced and since they announced it and my predictions were spot on until their announcement of the change, which also included notes that proved my original prediction was completely the case prior to the change. Odds are I would have been completely wrong by now, not a "Completely right every time save for cases where BioWare admitted that they made a change."

 

Which you can't really prove, unless you have a log to work with. In your experience, it's underwhelming. Ok, that's fine. That's your experience. There are others who have had a different experience. The only way to really show an imbalance is with a great deal of data compared to a great deal of data on other classes that compete for your role. That requires a combat log.

 

You are too spoiled by WoW Monty and haven't ever lived in a world without combat logs. I have lived in a world without combat logs and you don't need them. You can test individual strings and rotations without one. This is actually easy to do. You simply duel someone while recording their relevant data before hand. Then you go through your rotation. You record the damage the rotation does. You also watch your rotation numbers as they appear and note them. Then you correlate that information.

 

You do this enough times to get a large sampling size.

 

Then you try various alterations to the rotation.

 

When you notice a drop you identify why.

 

It is a lot of work, but you don't need a log. Logs are a crutch. They make it easier, yes, but hardly needed.

 

That's never going to happen and you know it. They said before release that they were not interested in making any class that fills a role "top dog". Each individual intended build is like a Pure class in the other MMO.

 

Then give us the same access to the same kinds of stuns and mezzes that the other classes have.

 

Why, because it's *your* priority number one?

 

No, because it is statistically fair.

 

That you are aware of. You have done everything you could think of. That doesn't mean you're doing it right. Your experiences differ from the experiences of others, and unless and until you can provide some solid testing data beyond just your anecdotal experiences and duels, you're not going to have solid ground to stand on.

 

I gave you a hard number. Please. Try to refute that number.

 

If this is true, it stands in *stark* contrast to your overall position. If you can pretty much solo any class that isn't a dedicated healer, one could very easily argue that the Sentinel is more than fine.

 

No it doesn't. That just proves that I am extremely good at using the class. I'm not having the same degree of issues that common players are. I'm also not a common player. I understand that my skill level is actually very advanced. I understand that I have a higher knowledge going in as I played through beta and already knew the strategies that were needed for encounters that new players are finding hard. I'm also aware that I have used other classes and I know how easy and how hard they are and what their problems are.

 

I can identify exactly why Operatives are so much more powerful in melee combat than Sentinels are.

 

I can identify exactly why Inquisitors seem to be extremely overpowered.

 

I can identify the flaws that are present because they are clear.

 

If I recall correctly, the Jedi Knight can buy a talented un-channeled stun. Focus tree, yes?

 

Jedi Guardians only.

[Vember]

I do play a Shadow. And even though he's a light armor class, he has more survivability than my Sentinel.

 

I play both too.

 

 

And there's no way in hell a dps shadow has more survivability than a sentinel. Not in this universe.

[Montegue]

Oh really now?

 

Between 12 and 13 key presses or mouse clicks.[/snip]

 

And how can you possibly quantify if what you are doing is optimal? How can you quantify that it's not outpacing the trooper below, etc? Furthermore, how do you quantify complexity? Number of button pushes? Every DPS class pushes a button every GCD.

 

 

Duels are *however* a great way to determine how much damage a rotation does when used on a non-resistant target in the best possible setting. Unless you are saying that the Sentinel is the only class in the game that is supposed to have to have another class to be viable.

 

Not really. Not only are you basing that damage output on a subjective target with who-knows-what level of armor, etc, you can't rationally compare it to another class. Furthermore, you're not taking into account buff synergy, or your teammate's stuns and other utility helping you to do your job. In other words, all you can do is watch numbers float on a screen. It's anecdotal at best.

 

Without a combat log, you got nothing.

 

 

Oh please.

 

The buff is nice yes.

 

I don't bring the off-tanking.

 

You bring the same level of small encounter off tanking that Vigilance JK does. That was the point I made.

 

I don't have the CC of other DPS classes. That is proven. They have longer, better, and less intensive abilities.

 

And they lack your mobility.

 

 

No. We have a crowd control stun that also stuns us.

We have a buff that is fairly nice.

We do NOT have more movement options than other classes. Not even close.

 

Who has more than two auto leaps to a melee target?

 

 

It takes more work to set up, is more easily stopped, and does less damage than every other set up ability in the game actually.

 

Show your work. Find a test dummy, record the log, and make a comparison....

 

oh...wait... you can't.

 

 

Try me. You don't intimidate me at all.

 

Who was trying to intimidate you?

 

 

Oh come on, that is a cop out argument and you know it.

 

It seems the definition of "cop out" has been expanded to include pointing out glaring logical fallacies in someone's argument.

 

Your argument is flat-out a post hoc fallacy. You are claiming that because there is an imbalance after the marketing campaign, the imbalance must be caused by the marketing campaign.

 

While it *could* have been caused by the marketing campaign, it also could have been caused by any number of other factors. You have no actual evidence to back up your post hoc argument, you just claim it's true by fiat without any actual data to back up your argument.

 

Much like your overall argument in this thread.

 

 

Oh I would so provide the actual arguments if the forum hadn't been wiped. You know that wasn't the argument being made.

 

I'm not going to get into it with your evolving memories of the past, Walsh.

 

 

 

*Buzzer*

It didn't have a viable DPS build and it wasn't intended originally to have one. They made a change to the design process based on complaints. That wasn't me being wrong at all, that was them changing the design.

 

Not only did you argue that there would be no such build, but when you had to eat crow on that one, you insisted it would never be anywhere near the Sentinel for output. And when you ate crow on that certainty of yours, you swore you would not even play the game.

 

And yet, here you are. You were wrong many, many times before the game launched.

 

(snip blah blah blah WoW, blah blah blah)

 

You cannot get an accurate, large sampling size without data. You can't collect data without a combat log. You're not reading mitigation on the part of the enemy, their dodges, etc, etc. At best, if you took a screen shot every second, you could only track the numbers you did to various mobs. There aren't any decent testing mobs in the game that I'm aware of.

 

Your argument isn't going to hold water until they add a log.

 

 

I gave you a hard number. Please. Try to refute that number.

 

You gave me an anecdotal number against a subjective opponent. That doesn't make for a means of comparison. You need to have a rep of each DPS build in equal gear, and a target with appropriate PVP gear to resist. oh, wait, but what target do you use? A smuggler? A trooper? Why? Each one is going to have different mitigation and avoidance.

 

Do you see why you lack the tools to make the argument you're trying to make?

[Maellstrom]

Quote:

I don't have the CC of other DPS classes. That is proven. They have longer, better, and less intensive abilities.

 

You answer : And they lack your mobility.

I have the mobility to stay in melee range, and I stop doing any serious dmg if I dont, many other class's can choose where to be, so it make our mobility moot except to close on a target.

 

 

Who has more than two auto leaps to a melee target?

 

One of these is A skill tree trait and not in everyones build so really we have one, to balance out with some others class's knock back or pull to

 

onto next poster

Originally Posted by Tedroni

I do play a Shadow. And even though he's a light armor class, he has more survivability than my Sentinel.

I play both too.

 

 

And there's no way in hell a dps shadow has more survivability than a sentinel. Not in this universe.

Sure there is a Shadow DPS can choose to run in combat technique and boost his Armor values by 150 % which brings them around 60 % more armor value then a similarly equipped Sentinel and thats a straight up fact. He then can go to one of his other techniques when he chooses to do more dps, no special traiting required. Lets not forget that after a Shadow has started a encounter they can so choose to drop to stealth ( PVE I dont PVP so can not claim if they intend to let that work forever ) and CC a selected target then proceed to go and clean up everything else and come back to that target nice simple easy , continue on. I have soloed easily and quickly dead on the same content to this point with Both class's and the Shadow flat eats my sentinels lunch , kisses his girlfriend, and then walks on smileing like nothing happened.

 

On another note TED dude what server you on LOL

[Tedroni]

I play both too.

 

 

And there's no way in hell a dps shadow has more survivability than a sentinel. Not in this universe.

 

*shrug*

 

My Shadow is spec'd more for tanking and less for dps. He'd still live where my Sentinel would die regardless of how my Sentinel is spec'd.

 

I'm on Darth Bandon server.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Tedroni

[neocoma]

Melee versus Ranged. To keep it simple, a melee should destroy a ranged class once hit got him. The ranged should be affraid of the melee chasing and therefore kiting him. On the other hand, the ranged should destroy a melee consequently on range. This concept, plain and simple kept, mostly works in TOR. Take a scoundrel ..once he is on his target the target is almost history. Same goes for the shadow. Sents are ...twisted. Some manage to kill within secs, others dont. Guards are ...effed. Face it. We have focus and with focus comes sweep as a pvp tree that relies on one spell which doesnt need a target but an area filled with enemies to deal damage. Now let me tell you this: In a game where ability delay is existent, in a game where warzones feel laggy like hell, in a game where in warzoens even chat messages take up to 1 sec to show up after typing ... how big is my chance to land a fully charged sweep on my target and when I successs it might crit for 3k-3.5k. I can go up to 4.4k swallowing consumables.

 

That is my guardian. Do I feel heroic? Nope. Do I feel fluid gameplay? Nope. Do I feel gimped watching my toon trying to let loose riposte but the animation is stuck in a cancel loop? Yep.

 

There's so much to fix with this class ...dont even know where to start.