Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[GarbonzotheDude]

I disagree with this. What's been abundantly shown in the past few years is that trying to compete with WoW is a waste of time, because WoW has saturated its own market for WoW-type themepark, competitive endgame MMO gameplay.

 

IOW, the very reason for the failure of the WoW clones has been that they are WoW clones.

 

Which is why I think BW have been going for a different market. i.e. they are trying to avoide the mistake of the WoW clones. Sure, they're going to be happy to attract some ex-WoW-ers, and to some extent the game does have some WoW features; but at core, I think they intend to find and attract new players to the MMO genre. At core, the game isn't a "rush to 50, participate in competitive endgame" type of game. In this game the journey is certainly AS important if not MORE important than the destination.

 

For example, if you check the "age" thread, you will notice that there's a high proportion of older and female players, and also couples and families. I think this is more what BW is aiming for. I'd also add that part of the older player demographic is older CRPG fans who really appreciate the CRPG aspect of the game, and may actually have memories of older types of multiplayer games (MUDS, etc.)

 

All of this demographic is the sort of demographic that's happy to play through the game slowly, appreciating and savouring the storylines. i.e. this game, like all BioWare games, has a very strong emphasis on immersion.

 

More generally, if anything has become clear about the gaming industry in recent years, it's that there are still HUGE untapped markets out there for videogames. I don't think we're anywhere near saturation with videogames in general, or with MMOs, and different types of multiplayer experiences.

 

Anyway, the upshot of it is, that an LFD tool is one of those game design features that may be "short term good, long term bad". It's obviously something that some people would like, but it may be a thing that people want that's not very good for them, in that it will lead to a shorter retention in the long run (i.e. it might be one factor that, like God Mode in a single player game, leads to people getting bored with the game more quickly).

 

Hence, you are correct, obviously BW want to make money, but part of that is designing a game that has long-term appeal.

 

Game designers have to balance what people want with what they know, as game designers, is going to be better for the long-term health of the game. And an LFD tool is something that might lead to people getting bored with the game more quickly.

 

Not saying all this ex cathedra or anything, just some thoughts for the discussion.

 

They don't need to incept the same model as WoW. They can be free to vary it up however they want. But to not have anything available is simply foolish on their part. I already had someone that I was friends with get po'd and quit the gamea over this very subject. They were dps and just got overly frustrated because they had no luck at all finding groups for the content. Not something I would do but I can understand her frustration.

 

...and while I hate the whole WoW clone term in general since you bring it up you think this is a subject they're taking a stance on? Really? This game is just as much a WoW clone as the rest. There is no difference between this and other themepark games. They're all going for the same types of players. If they weren't there would be other avenues they would gear towards such as an abundance of PvP content or a sandbox themed game.

[NuanceNW]

The theory that this game will fail because it doesn't have a LFG tool based on people's focus that other games have one is silly. This isn't other games.

 

The warzones already have the feature to auto group players. Those warzones include level 10 players alongside level 50 players, other games haven't been able to work out the details of how a low level and a high level can fight side by side and be matched on fighting abilities.

 

This isn't other games. Once people accept that they can move forward in this game and utilize the toolset and social features of this game to engage with others and group on common missions and flashpoints.

 

The first step is acknowledging that being social is the key to success, that asking to group or offering to join a group is part of the play style and not a failure of design. This game company is doing it right and providing rich features supported by rewards for those that actively participate with others.

 

Other games reward players by being anti-social, by providing tools that auto form groups from players across multiple servers. The results and gaming experience are a mixed bag of negative or self serving. Ninja looters, angry players who just want to complete the run to get to the next one who don't take into account group members experience because quite frankly they don't have too, after all they were auto formed from across multiple servers.

 

From my view Bioware got it right, the other games got it all wrong.

Bioware took into account social aspects of a game, placed rewards in game for social activity and even created a LFG tool that social people would utilize to form groups. This removes rewards for selfishness and creates incentives for social engagement. Just because players were used to something from another game doesn't mean that game got it right for this game. Remember, this isn't those other games.

 

Other games have you focus on you to the point of excluding all else - You're the focus, you're the only thing that matters and they got that focus from the very elites they hired from the very elite guilds to help in design. In the end that creates barriers, walls and elitism. This game has done everything to empower every player, to put everyone on the same playing field and perhaps that's really the concern, that because of the experience from other games they grew accustomed to "solo play while grouped" and in this game you actually gain reward from being social and engaging with others, that here everyone is king of the hill.

Edited January 8, 2012 by NuanceNW

[gurugeorge]

Psst. SWTOR is a WoW clone. It has the exact same endgame progression as WoW, both in PVE and PVP, but with a more linear levelling process.

 

But there's a huge chunk of SWTOR that's not cloning WoW at all, isn't there? Where are the immersive dialogues and storylines in WoW? Where are the acres of gigabytes devoted to audio files for voice acting?

 

One of the game directors of SWTOR even said in an interview that going too far away from the WoW model is guaranteed failure.

 

"Going too far away from" is not the same as "not cloning". To some extent BW are trying to cover all their bases, sure, but it's clear that their main emphasis in making SWTOR has been on their strenghts as developers who have experience making immersive storylines with good voice acting and well-done digital puppet shows.

 

(You sometimes see peple complaining about the money spent on voice acting - money that they believe might have been better spent on making SWTOR even more like WoW. But clearly BW intentionally spent more money on that aspect, and put more care into it, than any other developer could.)

 

No, it's not. A cross-server tool I might say fits that description, but a convenience tool that does nothing but help you find other players on your own server who want to do the same stuff you do is only a good thing both short-term and long-term.

 

That is unless one of your metrics of success includes unnecessarily drawing out the time to do anything in your game and purposely wasting peoples' time.

 

That's a bit of a joke in the context of an MMO surely? "Wasting time" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Anyway, a LFG tool such as you describe already exists. All it requires is a bit of effort and - guess what? - communication , in order to work.

 

It's the automation of the team-finding process that's convenient (short-term good) but in its own small way discourages human interaction (long-term bad).

[Gungan]

The theory that this game will fail because it doesn't have a LFG tool based on people's focus that other games have one is silly. This isn't other games.

 

Do other games have social points?

Do other games have social points rewards?

Do other games have cut scenes for every mission?

Do other games have companion's that actually heal or fight?

Do other games have open field heriocs?

 

 

Yes. They don't need to be named "Social Points" to be effectively the same thing.

Yes.

Do you need cutscenes to tell a story? No.

Yes. There's one other MMO I know of where every class gets a fully customizable pet. It's called Bounty Hounds.

Yes.

 

There is novel new here except maybe that the game has voice over, and every class gets a pet.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Gungan

[gurugeorge]

They're all going for the same types of players. If they weren't there would be other avenues they would gear towards such as an abundance of PvP content or a sandbox themed game.

 

How about "immersive voice-acted storylines"? You don't think that's attractive to another type of player (not saying some people can't like all these things, but you know what I mean)?

 

Think about this. Suppose SWTOR is your first MMO, you are an older player, with some experience of videogames, but you're not hardcore, and you have a bit of nostalgia for the SW lore, so you give the game a try. You haven't played WoW or any other MMO because they're such obvious timesinks with silly grinds.

 

The first thing you experience is an immersive storyline with good voice-acting and a well-done digital puppet show.

 

Then, at some point, you might drift into playing with others - THEN you "get it", you get the magical feeling we all felt in our first MMO, that we all try (and mostly fail) to recapture.

 

I think it's this type of player, and others with a family resemblance to him, that BW is trying to open up a new market towards.

 

See, the "rush to 50, play competitive endgame" type of player isn't the only type of player in the world. Nor even the "competitive PvP-er", nor even the "sandbox lover". Those types of players are already catered for in the market (WoW, GW, EVE, for example).

 

There's probably a huge market of people who haven't been attracted to any of THOSE types of MMO gameplay, but might well be attracted to a more storybased gameplay that gradually INDUCES them to group up, and start to get into those other aspects.

 

I can't tell you the number of times I've spoken, over the years, to both casual and hardcore single player game gamers who despise MMOs because they see them as mere grinds and timesinks. But a game with a good story? Well, maybe they might get into that, and maybe that might lead them to appreciate exactly what all us MMO fans have been into all these years

 

As I say, I think this is more BW's thinking than direct compeitition with WoW.

 

(Actually, as I've said elsewhere, I think WoW will decline most via GW2 - the only thing that will prise WoW players away from WoW is a new way of doing competitive MMO gaming, and Arenanet are the only people who have EVER had a chance in hell of doing that, IMHO, not least because they were involved in the design of WoW itself, and were especially responsible for its networking aspects. GW was more of a PvP game, but GW2 may be a massive PvE hit.)

Edited January 8, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Gungan]

But there's a huge chunk of SWTOR that's not cloning WoW at all, isn't there? Where are the immersive dialogues and storylines in WoW? Where are the acres of gigabytes devoted to audio files for voice acting?

 

 

 

"Going too far away from" is not the same as "not cloning". To some extent BW are trying to cover all their bases, sure, but it's clear that their main emphasis in making SWTOR has been on their strenghts as developers who have experience making immersive storylines with good voice acting and well-done digital puppet shows.

 

(You sometimes see peple complaining about the money spent on voice acting - money that they believe might have been better spent on making SWTOR even more like WoW. But clearly BW intentionally spent more money on that aspect, and put more care into it, than any other developer could.)

 

 

 

That's a bit of a joke in the context of an MMO surely? "Wasting time" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Anyway, a LFG tool such as you describe already exists. All it requires is a bit of effort and - guess what? - communication , in order to work.

 

It's the automation of the team-finding process that's convenient (short-term good) but in its own small way discourages human interaction (long-term bad).

 

Have you played WoW lately? Every zone in WoW has its own unique story line. It's not a class story line, but it is a zone story line (especially the revamped classic zones). You don't need cutscenes, or voice overs for it to be considered a story. In fact, in game design circles, cutscenes fall in the "bad design" bin more often than the "good design" bin. A story in an interactive medium should be told through gameplay (ie Portal, Bioshock, Half-Life), not through endless cinematic chatter. I do admit cinematic games have their appeal and I love em (Uncharted), but that's a single player game that is not an RPG.

 

WoW's dungeons are also a natural extension of zone story lines. Silverpine forest tells the story of Undead vs Worgen, and culminates in an assault on Shadowfang Keep. You know how easy it is to find a group for a dungeon when the dungeon is the ending of a zone wide story arc? Very. None of the SWTOR flashpoints have anything to do with any planetwide stories, they stand alone as their own events. You can easily skip every flashpoint and not lose any story.

 

Yes, interactive dialogue is nice to have, but have you really paid attention to how little the dialogue choices actually influence what happens in the world? The net benefit of your dialogue choices amounts to little more than light or dark side points, and an affection change on your companions.

 

Dialogue choices so seldom actually change what happens in the game world that it is more like a placebo, or illusion of choice. In the vast majority of situations there are conversations where I could have picked any of the three choices, and the same event would have happened regardless of my choice.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Gungan

[Umbral]

I disagree with this. What's been abundantly shown in the past few years is that trying to compete with WoW is a waste of time, because WoW has saturated its own market for WoW-type themepark, competitive endgame MMO gameplay.

 

IOW, the very reason for the failure of the WoW clones has been that they are WoW clones.

Just what games are you talking about? The games that have failed since WoW have all actually shied away from offering most of the features you can find in WoW. They've all tried to distance themselves from that game by offering something different, and have fallen flat.

 

Which is why I think BW have been going for a different market. i.e. they are trying to avoide the mistake of the WoW clones. Sure, they're going to be happy to attract some ex-WoW-ers, and to some extent the game does have some WoW features; but at core, I think they intend to find and attract new players to the MMO genre. At core, the game isn't a "rush to 50, participate in competitive endgame" type of game. In this game the journey is certainly AS important if not MORE important than the destination.

You do know that by a huge number, most WoW players have never actually participated in the raid type endgame content right? Most players in WoW are leveling slowly, and/or playing multiple alts and leveling each one of them slowly.

 

For example, if you check the "age" thread, you will notice that there's a high proportion of older and female players, and also couples and families. I think this is more what BW is aiming for. I'd also add that part of the older player demographic is older CRPG fans who really appreciate the CRPG aspect of the game, and may actually have memories of older types of multiplayer games (MUDS, etc.)

Sorry, but checking a thread on any forums that is even remotely resembling a poll looking for evidence of anything is essentially foolish. Forum run polls and the like are notorious for being gamed by "special interest" groups. As in messages of "hey post in this thread" etc etc running back and forth behind the scenes, etc etc.

 

That, and given that there's already been a few games released that were specifically designed to cater to the exact group you're speaking of which have only garnered a very small subscription base, I'm pretty sure no company worth it's salt would have made the decision to go that route. besides, there's nothing about SWTOR that's very different about WOW as far as game play and atmosphere other than the choices one can make as they follow the story. SWTOR just doesn't have many of the desired features.

 

All of this demographic is the sort of demographic that's happy to play through the game slowly, appreciating and savouring the storylines. i.e. this game, like all BioWare games, has a very strong emphasis on immersion.

Could you point out what about WoW hampers immersion, if that's what someone s looking for. You do realize that despite all the raging for years, WoW did more to facilitate RPing than any game had done to date, and that the Warcraft series of games, including WoW, is steeped in story and lore? I'm afraid you've walked into a bit of a trap here. I use posts from people like yourself to point out that obviously you have either never played WoW, or if you did you went into it not wanting to like it.

 

More generally, if anything has become clear about the gaming industry in recent years, it's that there are still HUGE untapped markets out there for videogames. I don't think we're anywhere near saturation with videogames in general, or with MMOs, and different types of multiplayer experiences.

As I think I already stated, in my opinion the mmo genre is a finite market. It may grow, but at a much much slower pace than other video game genres.

 

Anyway, the upshot of it is, that an LFD tool is one of those game design features that may be "short term good, long term bad". It's obviously something that some people would like, but it may be a thing that people want that's not very good for them, in that it will lead to a shorter retention in the long run (i.e. it might be one factor that, like God Mode in a single player game, leads to people getting bored with the game more quickly).

The thing is though, that is predicated on players leveling through the game only doing instanced group runs. That is very very rare, given that if one is only intent on achieving max level as fast as possible the xp gained in open world questing is usually always greater than dungeon running. At least it is in WoW anyway, and if it isn't in other games then it's just a case of poor game design, Edited January 8, 2012 by Umbral

[gurugeorge]

The net benefit of your dialogue choices amounts to little more than light or dark side points, and an affection change on your companions.

 

Again, you're looking at it from the point of view of a competitive gamer, and an "old hand" at that. Think about it from the point of view of someone new to MMOs.

 

Besides, if your point held, BW's single player games would have held no attraction to anyone either, and that's clearly not the case.

[HoneyBoy]

Again, you're looking at it from the point of view of a competitive gamer, and an "old hand" at that. Think about it from the point of view of someone new to MMOs.

 

Besides, if your point held, BW's single player games would have held no attraction to anyone either, and that's clearly not the case.

 

Compare the interactive dialogue branches in Bioware's single player RPG's to the dialogue in this game. It's obvious they are way more indepth than TOR. In TOR it basically comes down to the same three choices every dialogue wheel.

 

1) Agree to quest

2) Agree to quest with smart-alec/mean response

3) Refuse quest

 

There are very few choices that have any sort of impact on the world besides getting a letter in the mail, unlike in the Mass Effect or Dragon Age series because by nature this is an MMO.

 

Anyone who played any western CRPG before (KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, etc) could probably see through this.

[GarbonzotheDude]

How about "immersive voice-acted storylines"? You don't think that's attractive to another type of player (not saying some people can't like all these things, but you know what I mean)?

 

Think about this. Suppose SWTOR is your first MMO, you are an older player, with some experience of videogames, but you're not hardcore, and you have a bit of nostalgia for the SW lore, so you give the game a try. You haven't played WoW or any other MMO because they're such obvious timesinks with silly grinds.

 

The first thing you experience is an immersive storyline with good voice-acting and a well-done digital puppet show.

 

Then, at some point, you might drift into playing with others - THEN you "get it", you get the magical feeling we all felt in our first MMO, that we all try (and mostly fail) to recapture.

 

I think it's this type of player, and others with a family resemblance to him, that BW is trying to open up a new market towards.

 

See, the "rush to 50, play competitive endgame" type of player isn't the only type of player in the world. Nor even the "competitive PvP-er", nor even the "sandbox lover". Those types of players are already catered for in the market (WoW, GW, EVE, for example).

 

There's probably a huge market of people who haven't been attracted to any of THOSE types of MMO gameplay, but might well be attracted to a more storybased gameplay that gradually INDUCES them to group up, and start to get into those other aspects.

 

I can't tell you the number of times I've spoken, over the years, to both casual and hardcore single player game gamers who despise MMOs because they see them as mere grinds and timesinks. But a game with a good story? Well, maybe they might get into that, and maybe that might lead them to appreciate exactly what all us MMO fans have been into all these years

 

As I say, I think this is more BW's thinking than direct compeitition with WoW.

 

(Actually, as I've said elsewhere, I think WoW will decline most via GW2 - the only thing that will prise WoW players away from WoW is a new way of doing competitive MMO gaming, and Arenanet are the only people who have EVER had a chance in hell of doing that, IMHO, not least because they were involved in the design of WoW itself, and were especially responsible for its networking aspects. GW was more of a PvP game, but GW2 may be a massive PvE hit.)

 

Initially maybe but they won't last unless they find they really enjoy the mmo genre as a whole.

 

...and frankly missing features such as group customization makes it more likely they won't enjoy their experience long term rather than help it. Especially if the stoyline concept is what drives them but they cannot find people to experience the group oriented ones.

 

I do agree with your thinking on GW2. Although to be fair I heard this all before when GW was going to come out. However, there might be something about this one. Unless the devs are blowing a lot of smoke. Could change the industry as a whole and be the killing blow to a couple mmos that are already on their last legs. We'll see...

[HoneyBoy]

I guess in the end I simply cannot fathom how people are so adamantly against any sort of automated group finder, when in the case of it ever being implemented they could simply opt out of it and find their groups/friends/social cliques/etc the same way they have been doing.

[Gungan]

Again, you're looking at it from the point of view of a competitive gamer, and an "old hand" at that. Think about it from the point of view of someone new to MMOs.

 

Besides, if your point held, BW's single player games would have held no attraction to anyone either, and that's clearly not the case.

 

You're so wrong on this point it's not even funny.

 

You're trying to compare choice in a single player game to choice in an MMO.

 

First of all, in a single player game, the developer is free to empower you in any way they see fit without breaking the game. Unlock/locking content as they see fit because you're the only person they need to worry about. You are the only hero. Replaying the game can have different results because you're actually locked/allowed out of/into content depending on your choices. Take Fallout 3... your first big choice is whether to vaporize a town with a nuke, or save it - and if you vaporize it, it stays that way.

 

In an MMO they cannot do anything remotely of the sort. They can't lock you out of any content that requires even one other person to do. They can't destroy a quest hub because now you can't group with people who didn't for that content. They have some leeway to tweak the class story lines to do some mind shattering events, but the core of this is still a multiplayer game, and vast majority of the quests are clearly not class story. Replaying the same class in SWTOR is nothing more than replacing Light side choices with Dark side choices, and the same story plays out except this time some people die, and the companions that liked you last time hate you this time.

 

Trying to make the same quality single player experience in an MMO as you get from a single player game is impossible without separating it from the multiplayer part of the game (which they've had to do). They've hamstrung themselves because they can't break the balance of player interactions.

 

And if you've watched the dev diaries and convention interviews at all, you'll have heard them say that this is still an MMO, it's still a multiplayer game.

 

I also want to point out one other thing:

 

WoW's dungeons were and have always been a natural extension of zone story lines. Silverpine forest tells the story of Undead vs Worgen, and culminates in an assault on Shadowfang Keep. You know how easy it is to find a group for a dungeon when the dungeon is the ending of a zone wide story arc? Very. People want to know how the story ends.

 

None of the SWTOR flashpoints have anything to do with any planet stories. They stand alone as their own events apart from the rest of the galaxy. You can easily skip every flashpoint and not lose any story from any planet because the story begins and ends in the instance.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Gungan

[Gohlar]

Saying that pugging stepping stone content destroys a community is ridiculous.

 

That is all.

[GarbonzotheDude]

I guess in the end I simply cannot fathom how people are so adamantly against any sort of automated group finder, when in the case of it ever being implemented they could simply opt out of it and find their groups/friends/social cliques/etc the same way they have been doing.

 

I don't get it either. Especially since it can be implemented however they want. There's nothing that says it has to be something cross server or instantly ports you into the instance when your group is fully formed or either of those. It doesn't have to be a carbon copy of WoW LFD.

[dargor-]

I just hope they don't wait 6 months before releasing it, by then the game will be a ghost town

[joeragu]

the lfg they have is perfectly fine as is.. i can put tank lf: then a bunch of diff shorthand fp names... it could be better, like flags for chars, or a window for groups lf a certain role, but when people simply refuse to put the effort into finding a group, they just want it all done for them.....

 

people who want a wow lfd are just too lazy to type something out or look at a window to find people plain and simple.

 

btw wow's sucess had nothing to do with a lfg tool.

 

also cry more about wanting ezmode

 

I'd be fine with a better LFG window like they have now. It absolutely needs to show more characters in comments.

 

It also needs to show groups looking for players.

 

Bottom line is, they need to do SOMETHING. LFG instant queue, better LFG interface, global channel, whatever.

[luro]

Was just adding my support for this idea.

I understand the concerns, but i quit another mmo after playing it for 6 years, am perfectly happen with a lot about swtor.

However, this hanging out in general chat waiting to find a group is a little stupid when a better way has been found. Theres nothing fun about waiting for a tank and healer.

[joeragu]

I guess in the end I simply cannot fathom how people are so adamantly against any sort of automated group finder, when in the case of it ever being implemented they could simply opt out of it and find their groups/friends/social cliques/etc the same way they have been doing.

 

Yeah me either. I suspect it's because if people have easier ways to find groups then their own special groups/friends/social cliques won't seem as special.

[gurugeorge]

Just what games are you talking about? The games that have failed since WoW have all actually shied away from offering most of the features you can find in WoW. They've all tried to distance themselves from that game by offering something different, and have fallen flat.

 

I disagree. AoC, TR, Aion, CO, Rift, have all been WoW clones with a few of their own unique twists, but their failure has been in lacking the vast amounts of content necessary to satisfy people coming from a game with VAST amounts of endgame content. Rift is possibly the best of the bunch, and it even innovates quite a bit, but it's still lacking in content.

 

Here's the pattern I've observed: WoW clone launches, has a huge subscription (with, anecdotally and amusingly, a concomitant dip in WoW players online), tanks hard after one month, tanks even harder after 3 months, and best case ends up as a modestly successful f2p niche game (AoC), worst case ends up plug pulled (TR).

 

As I see it, it's all about content. All those games have their charms, some not inconsiderable (I really enjoyed the fps-ish combat in TR and the melee combat in AoC, and CO has a great freeform build system). What they've all lacked is the tremendous resources that would be necessary to match the blizzard of WoW content that's built up over the years.

 

You do know that by a huge number, most WoW players have never actually participated in the raid type endgame content right? Most players in WoW are leveling slowly, and/or playing multiple alts and leveling each one of them slowly.

 

Yes, I believe there are two statistics that are quite funny about WoW - trial account users never go beyond level 10, and the bulk of players have never taken a toon beyond lvl 35 or something like that (might be 36).

 

But part of WoW's "glamour", the buzz around it, what sustains its fame, is the people at the top who are committed to it. Even players who are taking it more leisurely, many enjoy being a part of that kind of game.

 

Actually, I'd say that one major factor in WoW's success amongst the non-hardcore is its "charming" art design and lore. None of the WoW-clones have matched that, and in a sense many of them have tried to be too "serious", or have tried to be "charming" but have failed at it.

 

Sorry, but checking a thread on any forums that is even remotely resembling a poll looking for evidence of anything is essentially foolish.

 

In comparison to what? In comparison to some special inside information that you've got?

 

 

That, and given that there's already been a few games released that were specifically designed to cater to the exact group you're speaking of which have only garnered a very small subscription base, I'm pretty sure no company worth it's salt would have made the decision to go that route. besides, there's nothing about SWTOR that's very different about WOW as far as game play and atmosphere other than the choices one can make as they follow the story. SWTOR just doesn't have many of the desired features.

 

Again, like many critics, you are, I think, unduly minimizing the importance of BioWare's strenghts. Nothing other than storyline being different? Is that really such a small thing? Really? In view of the fact that BioWare became a successful AAA company on the basis of that "other than"?

 

Could you point out what about WoW hampers immersion, if that's what someone s looking for. You do realize that despite all the raging for years, WoW did more to facilitate RPing than any game had done to date, and that the Warcraft series of games, including WoW, is steeped in story and lore? I'm afraid you've walked into a bit of a trap here. I use posts from people like yourself to point out that obviously you have either never played WoW, or if you did you went into it not wanting to like it.

 

Where did I say anything about WoW "hampers immersion"? I've played WoW (I'm one of those "only to 36 guys ) and I enjoyed it, and it's obviously a brilliantly well made game, and I found it immersive enough for an MMO with text-based quests (some of which are excellently well-written). Ultimately the lore and art design weren't my cup of tea, but no harm done.

 

What I am saying is that SWTOR is MORE immersive, in its own BioWare way, than WoW. And that immersion in itself can be a strong pulling point - and maybe (time will tell) just as strong for a multiplayer game as it has been for BioWare's single-player games.

 

But obviously, this means nothing to people who "rush to 50" - but that's what I'm saying, maybe "people who rush to 50 and endgame" aren't the main target market for BW. Maybe it's peeling off a few of the leisurely players, the couples and famliies, etc., etc., plus attracting more of that type of player, who don't already play WoW, or maybe any MMO, atm.

 

The thing is though, that is predicated on players leveling through the game only doing instanced group runs. That is very very rare, given that if one is only intent on achieving max level as fast as possible the xp gained in open world questing is usually always greater than dungeon running. At least it is in WoW anyway, and if it isn't in other games then it's just a case of poor game design,

 

Well of course it's not a make or break issue on its own. But I suspect ultimately that either it's not in because they just haven't had the time or resources to put it in yet (other things were more urgent), or, if it IS a policy based on a rational game design decision, then the rationale I've been outlining is the only one I can see making sense.

 

And with that I must bugger off and do some stuff, sorry I can't reply to the others who've been engaging! All good argument

Edited January 8, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Badbonez]

I guess in the end I simply cannot fathom how people are so adamantly against any sort of automated group finder, when in the case of it ever being implemented they could simply opt out of it and find their groups/friends/social cliques/etc the same way they have been doing.

 

^^ This. It's like people arguing against putting radio in cars, saying it ruins family interaction. Just turn it off.

 

And when I am unable to find a group to do a FP at an appropriate level, I am missing out on content that I have/am paying for.

[mid_knight]

Please add a LFD, if it's only server wide fine. There's no way a person like me, who has maybe 10 hours a week to play and is always behind the level curve can enjoy group content without it. LFD was the ONLY reason I resubbed to WoW when it was implemented. I laugh at the "it will destroy community argument". What community?

[Gungan]

I disagree. AoC, TR, Aion, CO, Rift, have all been WoW clones with a few of their own unique twists, but their failure has been in lacking the vast amounts of content necessary to satisfy people coming from a game with VAST amounts of endgame content. Rift is possibly the best of the bunch, and it even innovates quite a bit, but it's still lacking in content.

 

 

What? What? What?

 

Age of Conan far less a WoW clone than SWTOR. AoC was targetting the mature demographic first of all. M rated game. Secondly, it was using a totally different combat system, especially for melee classes. It was trying to put more twitch and skill into combat with combat game type button presses. This is entirely different gameplay. The only thing that was very similar to WoW was the questing.

 

Aion was predominantly a PVP game. Rather an RVRVE game with 3 factions, one being an NPC based faction. The entire endgame in Aion revolves around faction warfare. That is not WoW in the least. The only thing it really shares with WoW again, is the questing, and perhaps the use of hotbar skills, but that isn't something WoW invented anyways.

 

I assume TR is Tabula Rasa. Can't comment on that since it bombed and closed in like a year.

 

Champions Online was the spiritual successor to City of Heroes, except City of Heroes came out before WoW, and had more content and better features than Champions Online, so why would you play the super hero MMO with fewer features than the other super hero MMO? It even has user created content... which Champions doesn't.

 

Rift may be the closest thing to a WoW clone in your list, and it's still doing very well for a game released during WoW's lifespan. Personally I couldn't stand it because I hate MMO's that make up trivial soulless lore from scratch.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Gungan

[peterpangelo]

I'm a little on the fence with this issue. The ease of a dungeon finder is quite appealing, but of course for me at least setting up a group manually gives me a better feel of comradery and what not... I love going into the flashpoints as a group and all. But then there's that horrible drag of assembling the group.

 

My thought is that since the game is new, people are less likely to jump into a group because they're still trying to get down certain game aspects. I feel that after a little bit of time, once server pops are raised and filled, and once people get a hang of things, and DEFINITELY with SOME sort of aiding system (marking yourself as "LFG" is practically useless, but it could be the start of a helpful component once it's more developed) would solve this issue.

 

My reflection: I don't like how LFD queues streamline things. It works in WoW because so many people have done the grind before and just want max level characters asap. There's no problem with that, but to me it takes away from the experience when all you have to do is queue for things. Once the LFD system is implemented, then the complaints will be that its queue time is too long. Then they make it inter-realm. Then that queue time is still too long. If BW just streamlines everything, this game will sink before your queue even pops.

 

So, I don't think we need a queue system, but we DO NEED something to help groups get together. It is VERY TRUE that groups just aren't able to be formed. In a perfect world, I see us not having any sort of group finder, but rather some tool... maybe a global chat, or a revamped and more effective version of marking yourself as "LFG".

 

I propose this then as a compromise: if we absolutely HAVE to have a dungeon finder type thing, then maybe the loot or mobs could be nerfed (much like the new LF raid thing in WoW...) so that people could see the flashpoint, and then maybe venture more to do it in a normal group way. I still believe that the lack of people doing flashpoints is just because we're all still trying to get a handle of the game in our own way. I can definitely say that for myself. I passed on many flashpoint opportunities just because I didn't know the fights and I felt like I'd be a problem for the group and not a help.

[Moricthian]

^^ This. It's like people arguing against putting radio in cars, saying it ruins family interaction. Just turn it off.

 

And when I am unable to find a group to do a FP at an appropriate level, I am missing out on content that I have/am paying for.

 

^^^^^^ This all the way.

 

Here's the thing BW (I'm referring to BW here becasue they'd be stupid not to follow this thread and I hope they are more reasonable than some people in this thread)

 

I like doing flashpoints. They are a lot of fun. As a TOR player, flashpoints compete with space combat, questing, PvP and crafting for my play time. Out of all of these activities, only one of them requires me to sit around a space station an obnoxious amount of time hoping to get a group together. I'm a tank and its a pain, I can't imagine how much it sucks for a DPS.

 

So I can either waste an afternoon hoping to get a group together for a Flashpoint, or I can use that time to all of the other activities right away. Why spend 40minutes trying to get a group together for a Flashpoint when I can spend that time questing or PvPing? I like doing flashpoints, the are honestly fun. But they are not worth the wait time compared to the other enjoyable activities in this game. Waiting 30 minutes for a group will loose to PVP/Questing every time. For that reason, I've virtually stopped doing flashpoints.

[HoneyBoy]

^^^^^^ This all the way.

 

Here's the thing BW (I'm referring to BW here becasue they'd be stupid not to follow this thread and I hope they are more reasonable than some people in this thread)

 

I like doing flashpoints. They are a lot of fun. As a TOR player, flashpoints compete with space combat, questing, PvP and crafting for my play time. Out of all of these activities, only one of them requires me to sit around a space station an obnoxious amount of time hoping to get a group together. I'm a tank and its a pain, I can't imagine how much it sucks for a DPS.

 

So I can either waste an afternoon hoping to get a group together for a Flashpoint, or I can use that time to all of the other activities right away. Why spend 40minutes trying to get a group together for a Flashpoint when I can spend that time questing or PvPing? I like doing flashpoints, the are honestly fun. But they are not worth the wait time compared to the other enjoyable activities in this game. Waiting 30 minutes for a group will loose to PVP/Questing every time. For that reason, I've virtually stopped doing flashpoints.

 

Scroll back through this topic and you'll see some people honestly and compassionately believe that those 40 minutes are the WORK you should be putting in to PLAY THIS GAME.