Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[Sir-Coffee]

^ Sticky the above post.

 

It is golden... In fact, I suggest that the guy who posted it, makes a thread. If not, then I will.

[Cruzee]

What I think is really interesting is that Blizzard has honed and refined their LFD and LFR tools with their latest expansion. And despite the fact that several of you are in love with that tool, Blizzard has lost accounts to the tune of over a million subscribers.

 

Before you call me a fanboy, biodrone, or any version of noob followed by the suffix of your choice, know that I played WoW for over 5 years, and I enjoyed a lot of my time in Azeroth. I think Blizzard is a top notch company that puts a lot of time, effort, and money into their game.

 

For me personally, I left because the game felt too impersonal. Also, being over 30, I tend to want to interact with people differently than the younger generation. Doesn't make me right or you wrong, it's just the way it is.

 

I think Bioware realizes that it is not going to go toe-to-toe with Blizzard on the exact same player demographic. In fact, I believe Bioware is making a conscious effort to target a different segment of the gaming population. I believe that a substantial portion of this segment does not want the cross-server LFD tools, which is why Bioware isn't considering it.

 

Will there stance work out for the best? I don't think any of us know for sure. All I can tell you is that I will never step foot in Azeroth again, but I just dropped down a 6 month sub on this game.

 

No matter what, I hope you all manage to find what you are looking for, in this game or another. May the force be with you.

[pkmnrckt]

God, NO! Do NOT add a dungeon finder. It RUINED WoW, and it WILL ruin SWTOR. SWTOR handled flashpoints perfectly by giving the option to add group members to friends list at the end of a dungeon. If it's really taking you a long time to find a group, you need to MAKE SOME FRIENDS on your server. That's how MMORPGs are SUPPOSED to work.

[Touchbass]

Seriously BW, can you sticky this? Better yet, can you print this out and read it to your design team? Ever better yet, can you stick it on that little fridge in the break room so everyone has to read it?

 

Thanks for your input! I made a general post on the forums, the next two replies were people insulting me then Bioware deleted it for no reason ... I randomly found this post so I thought I'd try again

[Kurnea]

God, NO! Do NOT add a dungeon finder. It RUINED WoW, and it WILL ruin SWTOR. SWTOR handled flashpoints perfectly by giving the option to add group members to friends list at the end of a dungeon. If it's really taking you a long time to find a group, you need to MAKE SOME FRIENDS on your server. That's how MMORPGs are SUPPOSED to work.

 

People make friends by running content, which requires finding a group in the first place. Dungeon finders, especially same server DF's, help people find groups in a better way than spamming fleet general.

 

As for 'ruining WoW', I enjoyed WoW just fine post LFD, and was more social after LFD than before.

[Touchbass]

Don't mean to post again so quickly but wanted to add something additional to the conversation at hand. I don't think people here realize how many people are for at minimal a internal LFD feature, if not a global. When I first started discussing this issue it was 90% - 10% against any implementation of any feature from my discussions with people, both in-game and on forums on my main account. I decided people needed an opportunity and some time to see the error of their ways and look what's happening now, almost a month in and the forums are getting to close to a spilt of 50-50% of at least a dungeon internal finder. I've seen a lot of posters post strongly against it that are now supporting it because they are in our camp now.

 

The worst part is the LFD haters who don't care that our gaming experience is compromised. They want us to quit if we don't like as if our subscription dollars are insignificant. Half my real life friends have already left the game, i'm with the other half trying to tough it out and TRYING to propose soultions to why the other group left to bring them back. Instead of positive feedback I get yelled at, trolled, flamed and told to leave. Where is this precious community that you're trying to perserve?

Edited January 15, 2012 by Touchbass

[Ellisande]

I remember a couple of weeks ago, most people here would literally jump down your throat for saying this game needed a LFD tool badly. These days the ratio of pro-LFD to anti-LFD is what, 10 to 1? I wish all the fanboys didn't blindly defend this game and maybe we'd already be able to form groups by now.

 

Because of this BW is still convinced that their position is correct and it will takes weeks for a decent tool to come out -by then there won't be very many people to group with...

 

That's because the people who didn't feel the need to comment earlier, didn't read the forums earlier or had their eyes opened by actually playing the game and finding themselves never able to run a flashpoint suddenly decided to speak up in defense of a LFD system.

 

An irrational argument is burnt to dust beneath the light of truth.

[Amp_]

That being said, our design team doesn't philosophically believe that cross-server Flashpoints are good for the game at this stage in the game's lifespan. There is huge social pressure to not be a jerk that goes away when the odds that you will never see these people again is high. I'm not saying never - there may come a time in the future where we reevaluate this - but at least in the short term, we believe this will cause more damage to the community than good.

 

I'm not going to take anything BioWare has to say about the community seriously. As far as I am concerned you guys really dropped the ball on the whole server community aspect when you decided to not offer us official server forums, which are absolutely crucial. The community pillar is nothing more than the wobbly leg of the table with a book shoved under it.

[Edstonx]

let me give you a scenario (that I think will be pretty common). Imagine I'm level 50 and I'm trying to figure out whethr or not I want to PvP on Ilum or do some flashpoints. Under your model, I'd have to choose one or the other. If a choose flashpoints, I will have to leave Ilum, go to the fleet, and get a group together. If multiple people did this (which is it is reasonable to assume) they will simply be standing around the fleet rather than traveling and doing other things thus turing TOR into a lobby game.)

 

Now under my model, this change. Suddenly, the player isn't forced to deal with such limitations. While he is waiting the 10-15 minutes for his LFD tool to pop he will be engaging in world PvP for that amount of time. He will then obviously leave during the time of the flashpoint but then be ported right back to Ilum after its over in order to continue PvPing. In this model, he spend 0 time just standing around the fleet. This will do wonders for the game is more players will be out in the world and less will be standing around the fleet. This is a good thing.

 

 

 

This reasoning is completely subjective and based on personal opinion. The fact that it "feels like a completely different game than the rpg experience of questing, flashpoint, and world pvp" has no logical consistency whatsoever other than personal preference. Why doesn't feel it that way? What about warzones suddenly differentiate them from the rest of the gameplay experiences in TOR? How does it not have an RPG experience when each warzone has story elements attached to them (the battle of alderaan, preserving data from voidstar even huttball has story elements). There is no objective reason to separate warzones from all the other modes.

 

It's like you are trying to argue Red is not as colorful as Green or Blue because it doesn't feel as pretty to you. This doesn't justify your inconsistancy.

 

I'm going to start with the warzone pvp. First it's relevance to the issue of PVE content does not exist, but for your sake and the arguement I will continue. In an RPG game Zelda, Skyrim, Dragon age, Mass effect, and countless others. At what point during your journey do you stop and go to a predefined evenly matched battle repeatedly that has no quest climax and no story behind it? You really don't, it's not an RPG experience, its more like quick matches from FPS games than anything from an RPG. Though often times in RPGs you find yourself seemingly randomly attacked by an unknown mob out in the world, the difference with the MMO model is that mob is a person, so the feeling of RPG mechanics is still in place. It still feels like the world you're in. The difference is far more than just opinion, it mechanicly different from rpg concepts. So to include it in a debate about a PVE issue is pointless.

 

Moving on to your scenario, you seem to be missing the point of incentive. In your scenario you made it sound as though the average person would willingly stand on the fleet for hours or more when they could be questing just to avoid a 10-15 minute travel, instead of questing or participating in world pvp until the group is found. My model allows the group to be found without being at the fleet to do so. Right now I do the same thing using the /who to find the rare people who are flagged throughout different zones. The difference is I'm asking for an easier more collected tool that will most likely be used more frequently to gather this group from anywhere.

 

In you model people only have to be at point A or B they never have to go between the two, random encounters will never occur, the scale of the game world will diminish and become trivial. Any point in the world that is not a hub will become empty. And that's all aside from the fundamental idea that traveling is and always has been part of the RPG experience.

 

If you are saying that the 10-15 minute travel time will cause you to sit on the fleet instead of questing then that is your issue. To say all people will do this is assuming far too much. With various incentives placed around the various worlds and a relatively short travel time, any player who is not incredibly lazy or unmotivated will leave the fleet instead of just waiting to find a group that can be found from any point in the games world. I find this assumption of game wide lazyness to be absurd.

[Akaela]

I'd love a server only LFG tool like WoWs, but one that only puts you in queue for a flashpoint with people from your own server.

 

the list thing is horrid to use. spamming general is annoying.

[eroscastaldi]

Improving our LFG system is high on the list of features that Systems Design wants to add to the game. We want this to be good not just for helping people find Flashpoints and Operations to run, but also other multiplayer content like heroic missions. A key emphasis will be on advertising for specific role needs (healer, tank, DPS). This feature is currently in the design stage, and once this feature has moved beyond this to a development stage and has a firm ETA, I'll be coming back to you guys to give more details.

 

We've known we would need to revisit this feature for a while. In the level-up game, finding players isn't too rough because, with few exceptions, everyone in that level band is either on your planet or on the fleet. Once more and more players hit endgame, and are spending their time in more places, the need for this feature is going to increase. Note that right now, high level players have the opposite problem - there aren't enough other players up there to group with. This problem will dissipate as the game ages, and more players reach the later levels.

 

That being said, our design team doesn't philosophically believe that cross-server Flashpoints are good for the game at this stage in the game's lifespan. There is huge social pressure to not be a jerk that goes away when the odds that you will never see these people again is high. I'm not saying never - there may come a time in the future where we reevaluate this - but at least in the short term, we believe this will cause more damage to the community than good.

 

read this.

[raidyr]

Originally Posted by DamionSchubert

That being said, our design team doesn't philosophically believe that cross-server Flashpoints are good for the game at this stage in the game's lifespan. There is huge social pressure to not be a jerk that goes away when the odds that you will never see these people again is high. I'm not saying never - there may come a time in the future where we reevaluate this - but at least in the short term, we believe this will cause more damage to the community than good.

Simply do what the competitor does: Make it so adding said jerk to your ignore list permanently blacklists him from ever joining your group again. I won't pretend to know the networking behind it but after the effort gone into implementing a cross server LFG tool, surely such a mechanism wouldn't be too difficult to add?

[Moricthian]

I'm going to start with the warzone pvp. First it's relevance to the issue of PVE content does not exist, but for your sake and the arguement I will continue. In an RPG game Zelda, Skyrim, Dragon age, Mass effect, and countless others. At what point during your journey do you stop and go to a predefined evenly matched battle repeatedly that has no quest climax and no story behind it? You really don't, it's not an RPG experience, its more like quick matches from FPS games than anything from an RPG. Though often times in RPGs you find yourself seemingly randomly attacked by an unknown mob out in the world, the difference with the MMO model is that mob is a person, so the feeling of RPG mechanics is still in place. It still feels like the world you're in. The difference is far more than just opinion, it mechanicly different from rpg concepts. So to include it in a debate about a PVE issue is pointless.

 

You argue as if your above statements are fact. First of all, PvP warzones do have story elements. They might not be emphasized as much as FPs but they are there Take Voidstar. You arrive at a space station and are then contacted by Satele Shan who tells you that there is important information the republic must require that the Empire also wants. Therefore you must hold them off while tecs download the information. The story climax occurs when either the Republic or the Empire is successful in downloading the Data. In fact, the only real difference between PvP content and PVE is not story but who controls the bad guys. In PVE, the computer controls them, in PvP its other players. Both include story elements, play cooperation, and multiplayer content etc.... Your distinction between PvP and PvE is reflecting your personal preference not any objective fact or evidence.

 

Not to mention the distinction between PvE and PvP is irrelevant when it comes to teleportation. You argue that traveling to PVE destinations enhances roleplaying experiences but doens't effect PvP experiences. You come to this conclusuion becasue of personal preferrence alone. My preference is opposite. I find PvP to be equal to flashpoints (perhaps with the exception of Esseles/BT and Maelstrom Prison/Foundry) in RPG elements. Therefore porting to PVE does the same thing as porting to PVP. Which personal preference should BW go with? The one that is most common.

 

Moving on to your scenario, you seem to be missing the point of incentive. In your scenario you made it sound as though the average person would willingly stand on the fleet for hours or more when they could be questing just to avoid a 10-15 minute travel, instead of questing or participating in world pvp until the group is found. My model allows the group to be found without being at the fleet to do so. Right now I do the same thing using the /who to find the rare people who are flagged throughout different zones. The difference is I'm asking for an easier more collected tool that will most likely be used more frequently to gather this group from anywhere.

 

In you model people only have to be at point A or B they never have to go between the two, random encounters will never occur, the scale of the game world will diminish and become trivial. Any point in the world that is not a hub will become empty. And that's all aside from the fundamental idea that traveling is and always has been part of the RPG experience.

 

If you are saying that the 10-15 minute travel time will cause you to sit on the fleet instead of questing then that is your issue. To say all people will do this is assuming far too much. With various incentives placed around the various worlds and a relatively short travel time, any player who is not incredibly lazy or unmotivated will leave the fleet instead of just waiting to find a group that can be found from any point in the games world. I find this assumption of game wide lazyness to be absurd.

 

You are completely missunderstanding my model. First your characterization that a LFD tool will take hours to form a group is absurd. My model also allows the player to not be in the fleet to form groups. That's the best part. My model doesn't even force players to enter the fleet at all. It's just like the warzone que. So they can also form groups while out questing/world PvP. The only difference is, because the tool is doing it for them, they don't have to spam general chat/fumble through /who menus but instead focus on doing other things (questing/world PvP).

 

As to my last quote you are just contradicting yourself. "I find this assumption of game wide lazyness to be absurd." We have already agreed that the majority players will do the most efficient time saving thing possible every time. That's why most of them will use a teleport if it becomes available. Again this isn't laziness (please keep the elitist attitude to a minimum please) its maximizing time players have to content. You argue "travel to the fleet only takes 10-15 minutes, thats not too bad." Guess what's faster than that? Teleporting. Why retain 15% hassle when you can remove it all together? My model allows people to play more game for their time as they can quest/PvP and then port to the dungeon when its ready.

 

Players will wait in the fleet if theres no port option. Why would you start questing if you have to leave the area as soon as the group is ready? Sometimes it takes a while to get to the quest area. Why take the time to get there if your group is going to be ready in 10 minutes and you'll have to return to the fleet ayway? You won't have time to actually quest or do anything else. The majority of players will just stand around the fleet because the fp is right there. You might not like that or think players shouldn't do that but they will. They will do what is most convienient. In the case of SWTOR, its waiting for the group to form in the fleet. Its not lazyness, its just experiencing more game for your time.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Moricthian

[Sir-Coffee]

Don't mean to post again so quickly but wanted to add something additional to the conversation at hand. I don't think people here realize how many people are for at minimal a internal LFD feature, if not a global. When I first started discussing this issue it was 90% - 10% against any implementation of any feature from my discussions with people, both in-game and on forums on my main account. I decided people needed an opportunity and some time to see the error of their ways and look what's happening now, almost a month in and the forums are getting to close to a spilt of 50-50% of at least a dungeon internal finder. I've seen a lot of posters post strongly against it that are now supporting it because they are in our camp now.

 

The worst part is the LFD haters who don't care that our gaming experience is compromised. They want us to quit if we don't like as if our subscription dollars are insignificant. Half my real life friends have already left the game, i'm with the other half trying to tough it out and TRYING to propose soultions to why the other group left to bring them back. Instead of positive feedback I get yelled at, trolled, flamed and told to leave. Where is this precious community that you're trying to perserve?

 

^ This. Touchbass is ghandi, and Bioware + the anti LFD haters are the british.

[HeroXx]

How many people against the LFD are playing Republic?

 

It is incredibly hard to find a group as Republic.

[Huatar]

They don't necessarily need a Dungeon Finder.

 

They just need a better LFG tool.

[Sir-Coffee]

They don't necessarily need a Dungeon Finder.

 

They just need a better LFG tool.

 

Just spent the past 2 hours looking for a group. Yeah, I'm probably done for today.

 

Let's see, I set my note on the /who LFG list. I advertised LFM/LFG, and I stated my role. There's also a universal LFG chat btw.

If Bioware can make a LFG tool, that everyone will use, then bravo... I doubt they can though.

[xworndownx]

1. Can continue questing while waiting for group to form.

 

1. You can quest while LFG with the current system.

- People can also search to find anyone who is flagged LFG.

 

The only problem with the current LFG system is that not enough people use it or know how to use it in a beneficial way.

[Pravis]

What this game really needs at this point...is a Dungeon Finder. It was a huge success in other MMO's, no reason for it not to be in this game.

 

Pros:

 

1. Can continue questing while waiting for group to form.

2. Prevents trolls from sitting there ruining General Chat while they are bored trying to fill a group.

3. Proves that BioWare can do something like this. Buys street creds.

 

Cons:

 

1. Some people think it ruins the community...but I think they are wrong. They obviously have not sat for an hour trying to fill a Flashpoint group.

2. People who think like that are probably in a huge guild and have no trouble filling groups. We're usually filling 2-3 of 4 and just need that last role.

 

 

Pros:

1. True.

2. False. Not going to happen. Trolls will always exist in general chate

3. Silly.

 

You have 1 Pro.

 

Cons.

1. It does. kill the community. With LFD you remove accountability. Ninja looters will increase (those that NEED on an off-spec, off-class item). Communication will suffer (In WoW people never talk other than to harass others into hurrying up or complaning about lack of heals/dps/etc). Increase amount of jerks. Also if it is cross-server then removes the chance of aking friends that you can group with in the future.

2. False. I'm in a small guild and in a completely different level range than my guildmates. So I frequently have to LFG in Imperial Fleet or in the planet for Heroics. Guess what. I never have a problem because EVERYBODY is doing the same as me...using General to LFG. I;ve met everyone on my friends list (20+ people outside the guild) who I frequently chat with and group with.

3. Number 2 is actually 2 parts.

 

And most important CON which you left off (conveniently since you probbaly practice it)

 

 

4. IF IT is ever implemented, you'll have people gaming the system to get in a flashpoin/ops. And by that I mean Sorceror Lightning DPS queuing as healer, Mercanary dps queing as healer, Powertech dps queing as....well you get the picture. Poeple do it in EVERY game with a queue. DCUO and WoW have it all the time and its annoying.

[AlphaDragh]

whats social in

 

"lfm need a healer for cademimu"

 

?

 

 

Spending HOURS on doing this! Why can't it be done automatically be the damn game?

Edited January 15, 2012 by AlphaDragh

[NuanceNW]

I am opposed to automating the forming of groups and instant transportation to quest entrances.

 

I find travel part of the gaming experience.

 

I find asking others for help or offering to help part of the social experience.

 

I do not have problems getting into or forming groups for heriocs or even flashpoints.

 

Some people spam general chat, I've also noticed that those same people having problems with group formation have also been problem makers in general chat, offending others and being rude... perhaps that's more the issue, that some people lack social grace and as a result aren't getting grouped and a LFG tool that automates formation would put these players with others ruining their experience.

[dargor-]

Let's just get something straight.

 

Your "kill the community" argument is ridiculous.

 

People already aren't accountable, it's the friggin internet.

 

There already are a crapload of ninja looters ninjaing stuff since day 1 and people are still grouping with those because they have no other option.

 

Your point is null and non-existant.

Edited January 15, 2012 by dargor-

[brusthoden]

Yeah i got the 60 day card so i got a bit over a month left for this to improve i talked so much junk on how this game is going to kill wow but I'm dreading to even log on now. With out a LFD finder there is nothing to do but stand around and spam it's so boring. Thank god i didnt cancel my wow Sub. I hope it improves in the coming month. If it doesnt it's going to be like rift i bought it played it and it didnt improve in the first 60 days so i quit and never looked back as did a lot. For an MMO of this day and age there are too many Bugs and it lacks the bare minimal of what an MMO gamer comes to expect. Which is sad considering it's budget.

[Taekoma]

they do need this, everyone says it ruins community which is bullcarp. What ruins community is people leaving the game. Some people do not want to spam general for flashpoints. Hell, I was about ready to quit some other MMO before they added this, this gave me another 2 years in it and let me do things on my schedule as a casual player. Right now at 50 I have only done 1 flashpoint.....Esseles....at lvl 10. I bet if they pulled metrics they would see there are alot of people like me who are not expereince the hard work they put into these flashpoints since their idea of community is would be gamebreaking.

[PUREH]

This is needed so badly. Everyone elses arguments are quite hilarious. It needs a Dungeon Finder implemented.