friendly advice to scoundrels/operatives

[blackcerberus]

warning: no tl;dr version provided. Those of you who never read anything longer than a McDonalds menu, close this thread and take some more Ritalin.

 

Lets face facts, noone should kill anyone singlehandledly in 3 seconds with zero preadvice and slim chances to escape your certain doom once things have started rolling, and lack of expertise doesnt excuse this.

 

 

But then, Im not expert on the class, so I cannot offer any valuable input on how to fix this to put the scoundrels/operatives on line with the rest of classes. I dont know their weaknesses and strengths, I dont know what I should give them if I remove their massive damage during stun

 

guess what? BioWare developers are more or less like me

 

 

There are many expert operative/scoundrel players out there. And this is something that you guys have to understand, BioWare DOESNT KNOW THE CLASS THEY DEVELOPED AS WELL AS YOU DO.

 

When you have devoted dozens, hundreds of hours to master a class, you are a much more respected expert about it than any developer, which half of the time dont play their own game, and the other hañf dont play competitively, and has to pay attention to all 8 classes so he cannot go as deep as it should be necessary to understand them all to perfection.

 

 

Start brainstorming, offering constructive criticism on how to make the class balanced. And do this before a BioWare developer with no clear understanding of the class simply gives to complainers and swings the nerfhammer right into your skulls without understanding a simple concept: when you take some you have to give some.

 

 

Ask a mod to create a sticky to gather all data collected, all suggestions on how to fix the problem, ask for BUFFS in the areas that you feel will put you on a disadvantage after they remove your massive burst opener.

offer valuable input, analyze it, critizice it, test it, and come up with a fair proposal.

 

 

 

or dont...

 

I have said this twice so far. first in WAR for Witch Elves, then for Saboteurs in Rift.

 

they didnt listen to my advice, they kept negating they were broken, they kept stubbornly telling people to L2P, causing even more uproar.

 

they both were nerfed beyond words can express. In my opinion it was plainly an overnerf, in many regards totally uncalled for, and the specs became completly FUBAR for months on end.

 

 

Thats what you are about to face. Its in your hands to change it.

Edited January 8, 2012 by blackcerberus

[Sathid]

I have been thinking about this,if they lower the initial burst of damage they should lower the cooldown on the vanish,were too squishy imo,im sure i can think of some other ideas maybe later or some other players can chime in and be impartial.

 

One thing ive noticed about Agents im a Scoundrel is that the blade thing they do is very fast and they do little circles around yah,and yes us scoundrels and agents look for eachother,,alot.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Sathid

[biowareftw]

Lets face facts, noone should kill anyone singlehandledly in 3 seconds with zero preadvice and slim chances to escape your certain doom once things have started rolling, and lack of expertise doesnt excuse this.

 

 

But then, Im not expert on the class, so I cannot offer any valuable input on how to fix this to put the scoundrels/operatives on line with the rest of classes. I dont know their weaknesses and strengths, I dont know what I should give them if I remove their massive damage during stun

 

guess what? BioWare developers are more or less like me

 

 

There are many expert operative/scoundrel players out there. And this is something that you guys have to understand, BioWare DOESNT KNOW THE CLASS THEY DEVELOPED AS WELL AS YOU DO.

 

When you have devoted dozens, hundreds of hours to master a class, you are a much more respected expert about it than any developer, which half of the time dont play their own game, and the other hañf dont play competitively, and has to pay attention to all 8 classes so he cannot go as deep as it should be necessary to understand them all to perfection.

 

 

Start brainstorming, offering constructive criticism on how to make the class balanced. And do this before a BioWare developer with no clear understanding of the class simply gives to complainers and swings the nerfhammer right into your skulls without understanding a simple concept: when you take some you have to give some.

 

 

Ask a mod to create a sticky to gather all data collected, all suggestions on how to fix, ask for BUFFS in the ares that you feel will put you on a disadvantage after they remove your massive burst opener.

offer valuable input, analyze it, critizice it, test it, and come up with a fair proposal.

 

 

I have said this twice so far. first in WAR for healing DOKs/WPs, then for Saboteurs in Rift.

 

they didnt listen to my advice, they kept negating they were broken, they kept stubbornly telling people to L2P, causing even more uproar.

 

they both were nerfed beyond words can express. In my opinion it was plainly an overnerf, in many regards totally uncalled for, and the class became completly FUBAR for months on end.

 

 

Thats what you are about to face. Its in your hands to change it.

 

All classes can do the same with stacking buffs (the real problem).

 

Ranged shouldn't be able to 100-0 melee from ranged by your logic.

 

The fastest I have died has involved an assasssin. Second fastest was probably a bounty hunter.

 

PvP is not balanced in WoW until endgame either. WoW is balanced by the resilience stat, this game is balanced by the expertise stat. NOONE is forcing you to pvp at low levels. In fact seeing that you can cap badges from like 40-44? I would say anyone leveling only in warzones? Wasting their time.

 

If you are a tank crying about scoundrels/ops? Wait until you get gear. 20 k health in warzones? 3 shot? Yeah right...

[Sathid]

Yah there is a ceiling to our damage it seems,ive noticed well geared tanks/Mechs i cannot take down in my burst,even some light armor classes i cannot believe it or not,i dont know what they do but they are sith inquis's and Mechs are always a problem,i just avoid them now.

 

Oh and any half decent geared sniper,ditto i burn through everything and often lose.

 

Edit in all honesty,i think its gear i believe people posting OMG i got taked down this fast etc are not geared enougth compared to the OP counterpart,i could be wrong but thats what im getting from this.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Sathid

[blackcerberus]

If you are a tank crying about scoundrels/ops? Wait until you get gear. 20 k health in warzones? 3 shot? Yeah right...

 

I have a Jugg with centurion. ops/scoundrels with half a brain know they should ignore me and look for greener pastures.

 

I also have a lowbie Sorc, and ops/scoundrels kill me in the duration of the stun. my average day involves me being on the receiving end of lots of 6k and 7k crits.

 

 

I know both sides of the fence. and one of the sides being fine doesnt mean the other side should be a hell.

Thats the kind of as.s backwards logic that will have you rerolling anytime soon after a developer wrecks your class due to complains.

Edited January 8, 2012 by blackcerberus

[biowareftw]

I have a Jugg with centurion. ops/scoundrels with half a brain know they should ignore me and look for greener pastures.

 

I also have a lowbie Sorc, and ops/scoundrels kill me in the duration of the stun. my average day involves me being on the receiving end of lots of 6k and 7k crits.

 

Oh but stunning people from 30 yards away, and downing other classes before they can reach you is balanced?

 

There is no balance in MMO's. There is counters. Stop crying and learn to play better. I can easily outdmg my scoundrel/op in overall dmg on a Merc/Commando/Sage/Sorc. I am not calling for freakin nerfs on them though. I have ZERO chance of beating an assassin/shadow in a one on one played at equal skill level.

 

Do me a favor. Level a scoundrel/op. Get revealed out of stealth randomly about 100 times in warzones. Play a all tank/SI team where knockbacks somehow don't fill up a resolve bar. When you fail as an operative/scoundrel (and you will) come back here and admit you were wrong.

Edited January 8, 2012 by biowareftw

[LordRygarr]

Operatives deserve the nerf hammer and of course will get it here soon. The fact that any class can get me to 60% before I can even open up is pretty stupid. And im sitting at 11% expertise and still get my *** handed to me before I can move on my Sage.

 

Overpowered classes always pop up and ALWAYS get a nerf hammer to the face. So look forward to it ;].

 

-Athen the Sage who makes Emp's mad.

[Jaku]

Get revealed out of stealth randomly about 100 times in warzones.

 

You probably shouldn't tell people to learn how to play then state this.

[LordRygarr]

Oh but stunning people from 30 yards away, and downing other classes before they can reach you is balanced?

 

There is no balance in MMO's. There is counters. Stop crying and learn to play better. I can easily outdmg my scoundrel/op in overall dmg on a Merc/Commando/Sage/Sorc. I am not calling for freakin nerfs on them though. I have ZERO chance of beating an assassin/shadow in a one on one played at equal skill level.

 

Do me a favor. Level a scoundrel/op. Get revealed out of stealth randomly about 100 times in warzones. Play a all tank/SI team where knockbacks somehow don't fill up a resolve bar. When you fail as an operative/scoundrel (and you will) come back here and admit you were wrong.

 

^when people say "Stop crying and learn to play better" I'm just reminded about how people take their skills in a game and are convinced it makes them superior to other humans. Aha when In fact they are just squally little pathetic faces in front of a computer screen. No one cares about your negative opinions.

[voidsurvivor]

Start brainstorming, offering constructive criticism on how to make the class balanced. And do this before a BioWare developer with no clear understanding of the class simply gives to complainers and swings the nerfhammer right into your skulls without understanding a simple concept: when you take some you have to give some.

 

They made very clear in beta that any changes will be based on metrics, not player feedback. And yes, we've posted a ******** of feedback threads.

[biowareftw]

You probably shouldn't tell people to learn how to play then state this.

 

Try playing a premade with all assassin (tanks and dps), SI's (dps and heal specced), with one Juggernaut for the buff. This is all people are running in premades. Most of the time they skip the Juggernaut lol.

 

They are not stacking op's/scoundrels in premades for a reason.

 

You open. Knocked back. You get anyone to half health (good luck with guard stacking) you are ranged stun/knocked back. Add in dots on the ground everywhere from madness/balance tree. I can stay on my target for about 2-3 seconds max against these premades. Without burst the operative/scoundrel is litererally useless because their opener fills up a resolve bar and they suck at interupting compared to an assassin/shadow/

 

Premades are not stacking operatives/scoundrels. They are stacking assassins/shadows. When you get to 50 or don't play on a pve or roleplay server you will see this lol.

Edited January 8, 2012 by biowareftw

[Sathid]

They made very clear in beta that any changes will be based on metrics, not player feedback. And yes, we've posted a ******** of feedback threads.

 

And the metrics will show that ops are not doing the highest damage or getting the most kills,i can think of three classes that fall under that category and one of them stuns far too much.

OP's are situational ,not flying into the thick of things,or snipeing on the side if specced with what we are discussing,remember there is three tree's,i often use sawbones when questing.

[blackcerberus]

Oh but stunning people from 30 yards away

6 out of 8 classes can do that, brotato

 

am I killing them or something? tanks can CC people? omg, unheard of, first MMO ever that goes down this route...

 

and downing other classes before they can reach you is balanced?

a Jugg can do that? before they reach me? you mean me figthing at range and killing them before they get to melee range?

 

hey bud, Im playing SWToR...what game are you playing?

 

 

There is no balance in MMO's. There is counters.

 

there is no counter to a single-stun-kill-or-vanish. At best, if you have military reflexes and a healer in your team also has military reflexes you will survive it and the OP will vanish and look for an easier target. But thats a draw, not a counter.

 

Stop crying and learn to play better.

I can easily outdmg my scoundrel/op in overall dmg on a Merc/Commando/Sage/Sorc. I am not calling for freakin nerfs on them though.

 

Yep, I can also press the AOE keybinds. Sadly they are only oh-so-useful to stat pad dmg scoreboards, and help healers stat pad healing scoreboards too. Absolutly meaningless.

 

Do me a favor. Level a scoundrel/op. Get revealed out of stealth randomly about 100 times in warzones. Play a all tank/SI team where knockbacks somehow don't fill up a resolve bar. When you fail as an operative/scoundrel (and you will) come back here and admit you were wrong.

 

I would stalk and solo kill ligths so none of the above would molest me, I'd get tons of medals and cause lots of rage.

hey look, thats what ops/scs are doing rigt now.

Edited January 8, 2012 by blackcerberus

[Maximilus]

Do me a favor. Level a scoundrel/op. Get revealed out of stealth randomly about 100 times in warzones. Play a all tank/SI team where knockbacks somehow don't fill up a resolve bar. When you fail as an operative/scoundrel (and you will) come back here and admit you were wrong.

 

The problem here is simple. 65% of all op/scoundrels don't get/know why everyone is crying for a nerf. 35% of them do know why but they are keeping their mouths shoot as long as possible to keep their secret. Bottom line is there is a problem with a mechanic been use to do kill anyone in 3 seconds, and when BW is ready, they'll fix it and then no more op/scoundrels 3 seconds illkillyouwithknife bs, so simple.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Maximilus

[blackcerberus]

They made very clear in beta that any changes will be based on metrics, not player feedback. And yes, we've posted a ******** of feedback threads.

 

they made very clear with the slicing overnerf that was a plain lie. If you keep believing after that they dont concede to he who cries the loudest, you are in for a really, really, REALLY awful surprise.

[Juicenewtonz]

The class is fine, stop whining

[biowareftw]

am I killing them or something? tanks can CC people? omg, unheard of, first MMO ever that goes down this route...

 

 

a Jugg can do that? before they reach me? you mean me figthing at range and killing them before they get to melee range?

 

hey bud, Im playing SWToR...what game are you playing?

 

 

 

 

there is no counter to a single-stun-kill-or-vanish. At best, if you have military reflexes and a healer in your team also has military reflexes you will survive it. But thats a draw, not a counter.

 

 

 

Yep, I can also press the AOE keybinds. Sadly they are only oh-so-useful to stat pad dmg scoreboards, and help healers stat pad healing scoreboards too. Absolutly meaningless.

 

 

 

I would stalk and solo kill ligths so none of the above would molest me, I'd get tons of medals and cause lots of rage.

hey look, thats what ops/scs are doing rigt now.

 

Guess I have "military reflexes" because I can trinket something within 3 seconds...which is the time it takes from the knockdown to actually get the backblast in.

 

If I don't trinket a stun from ranged? I am just as dead. A BH/Commando can kill me just as fast with trinket/adrenal/expertise potion stacking, plus warzone buff, plus sent/marauder buff.

 

On second thought don't play a operative/scoundrel. You would just call for nerfs on all other classes. I am going to laugh hard when they introduce rated warzones/arena in this game and assassins/shadows are stacked over op's/scoundrels.

 

Then what will you do? Admit you were wrong? Nope that will never happen. Blame the game, blame classes. Refuse to get better. If you fail on a sage or sorc in this game? Pick a new game. Do not pass go. Play Hello Kitty Island Adventure or something.

Edited January 8, 2012 by biowareftw

[Jaku]

When you get to 50 or don't play on a pve or roleplay server you will see this lol.

 

I'm 50 and play on a PvP server.

 

I do not see teams that stack assassins/shadow, maybe sorcerers/sages.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that if you're getting knocked out of stealth all the time, you're doing something wrong. I get that knockback/aoe CC is spammed, specially in hutball, but if you're running into a lot you need to be more patient as a stealth class.

[ArchAUstin]

l get my *** handed to me before I can move on my Sage.

 

Overpowered classes always pop up and ALWAYS get a nerf hammer to the face. So look forward to it ;].

 

 

A sage is complaining about overpowered classes?

 

This game is balanced for 50's you obviously arent 50 or good for that matter, your shield absorbs our biggest hit and you can cast it twice....

 

Do yourself a favor, remove our stun with your CC remover, knockback, sprint, or force lift us. You have now beat us.

[Chado_]

I lol'd quite a bit at the op's notion of internal testing on a system of this scale. Either he's never worked on one or his company is not going very far..

[BoneCruncher]

Try playing a premade with all assassin (tanks and dps), SI's (dps and heal specced), with one Juggernaut for the buff. This is all people are running in premades. Most of the time they skip the Juggernaut lol.

 

They are not stacking op's/scoundrels in premades for a reason.

 

You open. Knocked back. You get anyone to half health (good luck with guard stacking) you are ranged stun/knocked back. Add in dots on the ground everywhere from madness/balance tree. I can stay on my target for about 2-3 seconds max against these premades. Without burst the operative/scoundrel is litererally useless because their opener fills up a resolve bar and they suck at interupting compared to an assassin/shadow/

 

Premades are not stacking operatives/scoundrels. They are stacking assassins/shadows. When you get to 50 or don't play on a pve or roleplay server you will see this lol.

 

So if you attack an organised group you die quick? What has that got to do with anything?

 

Anyone attacking a group gets smashed, the difference is, if your group attacks another group you are free to sneak in and kill one of them in seconds, then vanish, then kill another in seconds. It would take an extremely well organised group to counter your insane opening dmg output whilst simultaneously concentraing on the fight they are already engaged in.

[raelimar]

I think they could definitely use a damage reduction...however, we have extremely limited mobility. Every other close-range AC has much better closers than we do. Assassins have Force Speed, Juggernauts, Marauders, and Powertechs have their Leaps. We don't really have anything like that...it makes Huttball pretty rough, when you also consider that we don't have any sort of pull or knockback.

[Sathid]

Scoundrels dont get flashy lightsabers or kool flames shooting or lightning,cmon guys leave us alone.

[LordRygarr]

A sage is complaining about overpowered classes?

 

This game is balanced for 50's you obviously arent 50 or good for that matter, your shield absorbs our biggest hit and you can cast it twice....

 

Do yourself a favor, remove our stun with your CC remover, knockback, sprint, or force lift us. You have now beat us.

 

Ahaha how on earth are sages overpowered. Sure I clock at about 400k dmg every warzone but that won't save me from a 1v1 encounter with an Op. I'm very obviously 50 but I don't care to prove it to you. Just that I know from experiance and at rank 51 valor that just stunning an Op and running away wont kill them at all lol, especially one in the same gear as me. They still will crit me and since I'm dps my heals cant save me.

[Sathid]

So if you attack an organised group you die quick? What has that got to do with anything?

 

Anyone attacking a group gets smashed, the difference is, if your group attacks another group you are free to sneak in and kill one of them in seconds, then vanish, then kill another in seconds. It would take an extremely well organised group to counter your insane opening dmg output whilst simultaneously concentraing on the fight they are already engaged in.

 

It's a dangerous world out there.