Can Sages Roll on Willpower + Power Items?

[Khadroth]

They are talking about "Force Power" in that link, not "Power". Different stats. Force Power increases damage and healing for Force abilities only while Power applies to all damage and healing skills overall, regardless of type.

 

Both contribute the same amount to your bonus dmg/healing though so for a Sage they really aren't any different. The only difference is that force power comes exclusively on weapons, where as power can be on anything.

[Thaderin]

My position has always been, if you need it then roll on it.

[kesayo]

It's not that you can't use it. It's that he can use all of it's stats, as is, without modding. That gives him priority. That's why you ask if he needs it before you roll instead of being a total dick.

 

 

 

Right so a Guardian can roll on Vanguard gear then? It's heavy armor, and likely uses the same enhancement slot. All he has to do is swap the mod/armoring.

 

Where does the slippery slope end? It still just comes down to letting him have it if he needs it because it's the right thing to do. Be greedy all you want, but you would have no place in my group if you ever rolled on that without asking the Shadow first.

 

I'm sorry, but I guess I'm not leet enough to know what every other class needs in terms of stats. I only know what my own class needs. So if I see something drop that I can actually equip and boost my primary stats with, I will roll need on it.

 

If I end up getting something that you think someone else should get, if you can just explain it to me rationally, I'm sure I would be happy to trade it over.

 

But if you're going to boot me just because I rolled on something without asking first, that seems unnecessarily hostile and no one learns anything.

 

If you don't want people deciding their own rolls and you have very specific rules for priority, then you should let people know ahead of time. Otherwise, I think many people will just roll "need" if they "need" it.

[Khadroth]

I'm sorry, but I guess I'm not leet enough to know what every other class needs in terms of stats. I only know what my own class needs. So if I see something drop that I can actually equip and boost my primary stats with, I will roll need on it.

 

If I end up getting something that you think someone else should get, if you can just explain it to me rationally, I'm sure I would be happy to trade it over.

 

But if you're going to boot me just because I rolled on something without asking first, that seems unnecessarily hostile and no one learns anything.

 

If you don't want people deciding their own rolls and you have very specific rules for priority, then you should let people know ahead of time. Otherwise, I think many people will just roll "need" if they "need" it.

 

Like I said already, It's one thing if it's a mistake. It's another thing to do as other posters have said and willingly/knowingly roll need in the presence of the class it was optimally designed for. People like the latter are greedy and will immediately receive a boot from me.

 

The point of this all is to be courtious and considerate of the needs of others. When I catch someone purposely doing the opposite, then frankly I have no desire to reward them in any way. In the OP's scenario I would have informed them that they shouldn't have done that and told them why. The OP ultimately did the right thing and handed it over, so I have no problem with it. He simply didn't know that accuracy was useless for him.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Khadroth

[hadoken]

The accuracy on the item is a big clue it is not for a healer, regardless of how you could mod it after the fact.

 

Heals don't miss.

[synfoola]

I'm glad I came across this thread and learned some info about other stats. Having had way too many ninja looters on the dead server I let my friends drag me to (Sith rolling Need on Sniper Rifles...SRSLY?), it's good to know what not to do when leveling my Consular.

[Khadroth]

I'm glad I came across this thread and learned some info about other stats. Having had way too many ninja looters on the dead server I let my friends drag me to (Sith rolling Need on Sniper Rifles...SRSLY?), it's good to know what not to do when leveling my Consular.

 

Aye, it's always a good idea to ask before rolling for companion loot too.

[Ruuprect]

No you really shouldn't roll on this. The accuracy is a totally useless stat for you as a Sage, hence it being "made for Shadows". Obviously if the Shadow doesn't need it then sure, it's fair game, but you should never roll need on another classes loot without getting permission first. If you didn't know about the whole accuracy thing, then fine, mistakes happen, but it's very poor form to do this knowingly in a group.

 

^^This^^

 

You should not be rolling on +accuracy items.

 

Heal items have Will/End/Crit/alac on them most of the time at lower lvls and at 50 they have will/end/power on them.

[Sagerk]

^^This^^

 

You should not be rolling on +accuracy items.

 

Heal items have Will/End/Crit/alac on them most of the time at lower lvls and at 50 they have will/end/power on them.

 

Wrong, Accuracy is useless to a HEALER, it is not useless to a SAGE.

 

Yes, Accuracy is generally MORE usefull to a melee class but it is still useful to a sage as well.

 

Just wanted to clarify that, the reasons can be found in many spots in this thread and in the various stat guides around.

[Khadroth]

Wrong, Accuracy is useless to a HEALER, it is not useless to a SAGE.

 

Yes, Accuracy is generally MORE usefull to a melee class but it is still useful to a sage as well.

 

Just wanted to clarify that, the reasons can be found in many spots in this thread and in the various stat guides around.

 

Accuracy is useless for a Sage. It only reduces resistances. Bosses have no innate resistance. Players RARELY have innate resistance in pvp and even then it's always tanks. The cost of actually trying to slot it for the rare occasions you might run into it simply make it worthless compared against slotting another stat.

[Eelam]

The point I was making is that the other stats gain dwarfs any kind of accuracy gain. It's not even about the moddng really. If you look at my figures above, it clearly shows that I as a Sage would gain a hell of a lot from equipping that item. That gain dwarfs the tiny amount of accuracy that has to offer, by comparison.

 

Your argument seems to lie somewhere along the lines of, "It has accuracy, so you can't have it as a healer". So I would say once more, if it had +1 accuracy on it, would you still say it wasn't a healer item?

 

Also, I obviously wouldn't roll on trooper gear or whatever your example was above, because those stats are entirely different, and that would be an entirely different situation. I can use this item, and it will benefit me in a big way. So I would roll need.

 

That doesn't make me selfish, or any other derogatory you can dream up. I'm needing on gear that is USEFUL, in a big way. If I was selfish, I'd act like the person having a go at him and tell the other guy NOT to roll. As I said, it's open game. We can all use it, and we will all need. No one is the bad guy for trying to roll on "your" loot.

 

Finally, I would lose little sleep over not being invited to your group. Not sure why you think that would deter me from having this opinion. Bizarre.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Eelam

[CBGB]

So I would say once more, if it had +1 accuracy on it, would you still say it wasn't a healer item?

 

That's a good question. The accuracy bonus is the lowest of all the stats, and this would have been a substantial improvement for me in Willpower and Power, two clearly important factors.

 

Can't we team with the reasonable rule of, 'if this significantly upgrades your key abilities, go ahead and roll on it?"

[kesayo]

Like I said already, It's one thing if it's a mistake. It's another thing to do as other posters have said and willingly/knowingly roll need in the presence of the class it was optimally designed for. People like the latter are greedy and will immediately receive a boot from me.

 

The point of this all is to be courtious and considerate of the needs of others. When I catch someone purposely doing the opposite, then frankly I have no desire to reward them in any way. In the OP's scenario I would have informed them that they shouldn't have done that and told them why. The OP ultimately did the right thing and handed it over, so I have no problem with it. He simply didn't know that accuracy was useless for him.

 

Sorry dude, but you're totally back pedalling. In your post you said the OP was being "a total dick" by not asking before rolling and that you would boot people like that. You didnt say anything about trying determine the intent first. You just assumed he was a dick.

[Khadroth]

Sorry dude, but you're totally back pedalling. In your post you said the OP was being "a total dick" by not asking before rolling and that you would boot people like that. You didnt say anything about trying determine the intent first. You just assumed he was a dick.

 

No I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

I said that the poster I was quoting would have been a total dick to knowingly roll on the piece over the shadow despite it having accuracy, just because it was moddable.

 

You may have interpretted it that way because you're looking for someone to attack, but I haven't been hostile towards the OP at all. Doubt me? Check my first post:

 

No you really shouldn't roll on this. The accuracy is a totally useless stat for you as a Sage, hence it being "made for Shadows". Obviously if the Shadow doesn't need it then sure, it's fair game, but you should never roll need on another classes loot without getting permission first. If you didn't know about the whole accuracy thing, then fine, mistakes happen, but it's very poor form to do this knowingly in a group.

 

Oh look... that line about mistakes that I repeated for you.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Khadroth

[RuQu]

OP, ignore the people saying you can't roll, this was a legitimate upgrade for you.

 

Gear comes in 4 major flavors, with a primary stat for each class, not each AC. If it has willpower on it, any sage or shadow can roll.

 

Epic (purple) gear tends to have some fixed stats and some mod slots. If you removed the mods, that item would have:

 

+30 Endurance

+24 Willpower

+ (Mod Slot)

+ (Enhancement Slot)

 

Those base stats make that a Consular (any AC) item. You could easily have a +Power enhancement in your current armor you could pull out and slot in immediately to replace the +accuracy.

 

The argument that this allows Guardians to roll on Trooper gear is fallacious, as the base stats on that epic Trooper gear would be +end +aim. If it was entirely moddable heavy armor with +aim mods in all slots, then the Guardian rolling on it "as an upgrade" would be clearly lying as it would only serve a cosmetic benefit to him.

 

I am pretty sure everyone agrees that rolling need for cosmetics vs someone who is rolling need for the stats is rude. No one is arguing in favor of that.

 

What people are saying is that if an item is an upgrade for you but has a bad mod in it, you don't have to pass, just replace that mod.

 

This game has a lot of shared loot, which cuts down on the number of vendored items or useless drops but can also lead to multiple people in a group needing the same item. Raids made entirely of Troopers or entirely of Consulars are perfectly feasible.

 

If you need an item, roll need on it. Don't throw a fit if you lose, congratulate the person who won an upgrade. Remember that this isn't WoW, everyone you group with is from your server. Try and build good relationships. If it is a 5% upgrade for you, but a 100% upgrade for them (maybe they haven't managed to find boots in 10 levels, and yours are crafted blues for your level), consider passing or trading it to them when they show how bad their item is. You will likely see them again, and you may just make a friend. Or, and I've done this, if an item drops that is better than I can make, so I roll need on it and win, and then they link how bad their item was that it would replace. I offered to craft them the blue version I'd been using that I just upgraded. Now we both have upgrades, everyone wins.

 

Long post, but the point is you were fully right to roll need on that upgrade based on its base stats and how good it was for you. Trust me, that same person who insists +18 accuracy in the (removable) enhancement means that the gear belongs to them alone will gladly roll on your +power items as well. They are just trying to decrease competition for themselves based on their time WoW's cross-server community/accountability destroying dungeon finder.

[Mazikeen]

My teammates argued that Sages need Alacrity...

 

When you play a character, you need to research what is beneficial to them as well as their capabilities/weaknesses

 

If you let others tell you what is best for you then you should probably spend more time looking into game mechanics

[Dungeoness]

The subject question isn't quite representative of the heart of this issue, but the answer is still yes. The fact that Accuracy is present on the item may indicate that it was originally created for a Shadow, but as others have said, this doesn't disqualify a Sage from getting plenty of use out of it.

 

Everyone's gear is viewable and linkable, so who should get the item should come down to how big of an upgrade the 3 other important and relevant stats are. Especially this early in the game.

[Belamont]

Sorry folks, Khadroth is completely right in this issue.

[JeremyDale]

I'm not a loot-guy or much fixated on particular gear, so I'm amazed to have an item question. But since I am a happy-teammates-matter guy, I want to ask about how to prevent a conflict like one I just encountered.

 

As a Sage, I rolled on a Willpower and Power item and got quite a tongue-lashing. For the stat-curious, it was

[Prototype] Elder Seeker's Handwraps

+66 End

+52 Will

+18 Acc

+30 Pow

with a Mod of

+12 End, +28 Will, +16 Pow

and an Enhancement of

+24 End, +18 Acc, +14 Pow

 

It's BoE, and I gave it to the Shadow in our group, who could certainly use it. I didn't mind at all that he rolled.

 

I did mind that my rolling was such a big deal. It was a big upgrade for me in every sense, especially Willpower and Power, and I want to avoid trouble next time.

 

My teammates argued that Sages need Alacrity... fine for

many Sages, I'm sure, but hardly a big deal for me. Of the dozen abilities I use most often, only two have cast times, and the one of issue is a damage ability that teams aren't out to maximize. (You never hear, 'Need 1 more, Healer With MIND CRUSH!'). Really, aren't I getting more by adding Power to all my abilities?

 

One teammate also argued that high End made this a Shadow item, and I certainly agree a Shadow can use this, too. But minutes later, everyone passed to give me a minor upgrade with an Implant of stats +47 End, +39 Wil, roughly the same proportion as the item above. Many good Sage items have Endurance close to or exceeding the Willpower boost.

 

 

Wah, wah, QQ. The item doesn't matter. But group dynamics do, and I want them to be as smooth as possible in the future. Should I really not roll on Willpower/Power items?

 

You didn't specify what type of Sage you are - and it wasn't a Willpower/Power item. It was a Willpower/Power/Accuracy item.

 

If you are a Seer and specialize in healing, I would think it's bad form to roll on accuracy items personally, even if it's an increase to your willpower - unless no one else in the group wanted it and you really had crap gear in that slot and desperately needed an upgrade.

Edited January 10, 2012 by JeremyDale

[Fsixknight]

As the previous poster said, if you are a healer sage and had a dps shadow in your group then it's just common sense that the shadow gets priority on a willpower item with accuracy.

Accuracy does NOTHING for a healer. Your teammates will not try to dodge or resist your heals.

Heals are 100% hit.

That is why your group gave you a hard time and they were right.

 

That said, if there is no dps shadow or dps sage in your group and you get more willpower / power out of such items then off course you can (and should) roll need.

[CBGB]

It's sure interesting that the thread has turned into a debate about the item having Accuracy, which wasn't the issue with my original team. That raises two questions: is there an equivalent stat that makes an item for a Sage and not for a Shadow? And does ANY accuracy rating make an item a Shadow piece?

 

This item has Accuracy, its lowest attribute, only as slotted:

 

OP, ignore the people saying you can't roll, this was a legitimate upgrade for you.

 

Gear comes in 4 major flavors, with a primary stat for each class, not each AC. If it has willpower on it, any sage or shadow can roll.

 

Epic (purple) gear tends to have some fixed stats and some mod slots. If you removed the mods, that item would have:

 

+30 Endurance

+24 Willpower

+ (Mod Slot)

+ (Enhancement Slot)

 

Those base stats make that a Consular (any AC) item. You could easily have a +Power enhancement in your current armor you could pull out and slot in immediately to replace the +accuracy.

 

...Remember that this isn't WoW, everyone you group with is from your server. Try and build good relationships.

 

I sure do, which is why I posted here, to prevent the problem again.

 

I'm a considerate player. I look after my teammates and, as far as loot goes, share willingly. I asked about rolling on this, as I do for any Need roll; here I got no response before timeout and then... quite a response when I won. A good run was instantly turned into an attack over one stupid item, one I never saw coming.

 

 

If it is a 5% upgrade for you, but a 100% upgrade for them

 

That does matter. It was quite an upgrade for me. I don't know how much it improved the Shadow, but I do know that it was no more than 18 points of Accuracy, almost certainly less.

 

 

Thanks for the thoughts here. My original view was 'If an item substantially improves your primary stats at least as much as for anyone else, roll on it.'

 

That had served me well through so many groups - perhaps because I kept it as a high standard and rolled Need rarely - that I didn't expect a nasty time for such a thing here.

[BadMFer]

I hate when people say "it's common sense" or "you should know it's not for your class" It was a big upgrade for him which would have made him a more effective healer and he "needed" it. It's not a item spec'd for your class roll, its a need roll. I hate elitist in these games that are like "OH IT HAD 2 ACC IT WAS FOR ME!" no its not thats why they have need rolls. Obviously it was very useful to the OP, so he needed it and so did the shadow SO THATS WHY THEY ROLL ON IT! If the shadow loses oh well. run the instance again to try to get it to drop again or continue on and find a better item with even more ACC.

 

Not to mention on WoW I was a hunter and I had a rouge roll on a bow that would have been great for me cause my bow was very under my level, just so he could get one stat to sit in his ranged slot and he would never actually "use" it. I was a little upset but hey a couple days later I found a much better bow.

 

I hate item whiners, should I call the WHAAAABULANCE!

[BadMFer]

It's sure interesting that the thread has turned into a debate about the item having Accuracy, which wasn't the issue with my original team. That raises two questions: is there an equivalent stat that makes an item for a Sage and not for a Shadow? And does ANY accuracy rating make an item a Shadow piece?

 

This item has Accuracy, its lowest attribute, only as slotted:

 

 

 

I sure do, which is why I posted here, to prevent the problem again.

 

I'm a considerate player. I look after my teammates and, as far as loot goes, share willingly. I asked about rolling on this, as I do for any Need roll; here I got no response before timeout and then... quite a response when I won. A good run was instantly turned into an attack over one stupid item, one I never saw coming.

 

 

 

 

That does matter. It was quite an upgrade for me. I don't know how much it improved the Shadow, but I do know that it was no more than 18 points of Accuracy, almost certainly less.

 

 

Thanks for the thoughts here. My original view was 'If an item substantially improves your primary stats at least as much as for anyone else, roll on it.'

 

That had served me well through so many groups - perhaps because I kept it as a high standard and rolled Need rarely - that I didn't expect a nasty time for such a thing here.

 

OP you did the right thing and you shouldnt have gave it to the other player. Dont argue with them just drop out and find other people to play with, if its a guildy then you can have a quick discussion and im sure it would work out fine. Dont listen to these elitists that have nothing better to do in life but to study mmo's and think everyone else doesnt have a life.

[Turando]

OP you did the right thing and you shouldnt have gave it to the other player. Dont argue with them just drop out and find other people to play with, if its a guildy then you can have a quick discussion and im sure it would work out fine. Dont listen to these elitists that have nothing better to do in life but to study mmo's and think everyone else doesnt have a life.

 

Many, but perhaps not all, of the "elitists" have politely put forward their reasons why it would have been inappropriate to roll need. Calling them names doesn't earn you any credibility.

 

There are clearly many class roles that overlap on the use of base stats, but for many it is the secondary stats that help us distinguish which gear really belongs to which class roles. I don't think it was right to roll on the item, unless the OP asked if anybody minded if he rolled need.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Turando

[DarKenigma]

I've always hated these things, if it is better than your current equipment roll on it. This item especially, it is just as good for a sage as a shadow, you both roll who ever gets it gets it no whining. Definately find a new group to hang around with. You'll always hear at least one complaint on every nice item.