Why the grind has got to go in MMO's

[Blackwater]

How did you not know about the story part of the game. The way the story is told was the main feature I bought it for.

Maybe this is not the game for you?

 

Also, and this is a big secret, so don't tell everyone.

 

If you go into the menu you can select the auto skip.

Also, Alt + T is target of target.

 

Don't tell anyone though, I mean its not like you could look through the game menu and find these settings and commands or anything.

Awesome, so i skip all the dialog. What are you left with? A WoW clone with striped features and linear worlds

[Darkevilhum]

Grind is all about opinion.

 

I don't want an easy game, but I don't want an impossible one.

 

That's probably why I like Aion. I think it had a perfect grind, though NC has made it easier since launch. Would it not be for NCsoft's complete failure at managing an MMO in the western market I would probably play Aion for 5+ years.

 

Lol i'm sorry but that is just a lack of depth to your character/personality if you find any challenge within a grind.

[Revelationjp]

Awesome, so i skip all the dialog. What are you left with? A WoW clone with striped features and linear worlds

 

If you're skipping all the dialog you're buying a lamborgini, painting it puce and putting a fiero motor in it. Not that this is a Lambo, but you're not using it for it's intended purpose is my point. No wonder you're disappointed.

[LizardSF]

No way. The way they've implemented it is great. You want the bonus quest on the way to kill the main guy or reach the main objective or something.

 

Works perfectly.

 

Cheers.

 

Please reread what I wrote.

 

I am *agreeing* with you.

 

I PREFER the SWTOR way to the WoW/most other MMOs way.

[Turando]

I have been as big of a proponent of the VO acting. I am now 34 struggling to get to 35, I know understand the OP point. And I think at best, I am 1/2 way to cap.

 

Maybe I am getting older, maybe I forgot how friggin long it took me to get my WoW toons to max level in vanilla. Maybe MMOs and their grind is no longer for me.

 

I really love this game, and I love raiding, I am realizing how much dislike I have for the leveling process. It starts out great, I absolutely love the class quest line and want to see what happens next, but I am starting to dread slugging through the content just so I can raid.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Turando

[LizardSF]

I would shift your analogy a bit. I think leveling is more like practice before the baseball game. In WoW the game did not really begin until you hit the level cap and could run top level dungeons to get gear to then go on to raiding.

 

For me, this is where WoW (and most other MMOs) end. I want to do a quest, finish the story, get my reward, and do another quest. I don't want to run the same dungeon over and over and over until I get the items I need to run the next dungeon over and over and over. A well-designed dungeon should be good for 2-3 runs, especially if there's options/events/choices that can change the experience. 5 runs? That's pushing it. 10 or more? You must be joking. PVP battlefields are a little different, because there are so many more random factors and unexpected events, but even they get repetitive after a while, and it can be worse, because you don't unlock new battlefields when you get enough epic gear, you just keep doing the same one, but now you've got bigger shoulderpads.

 

All of this artifice is to provide a backdrop for you to level until you hit the cap, and can join a large raiding group and have fun playing with others every tuesday and friday at 8PM EST for 4 hours.

 

I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, because, to me, you're describing the area where MMOs went completely wrong. You play one kind of game from level 1 to cap, and a totally different kind of game at cap, and if you like one kind of game, you probably won't like the other.

 

That's a fundamental genre design flaw, and while BioWare doesn't seem dead-set on changing it, they at least have a chance to mitigate it.

[Deepmemories]

There is a grind in SWTOR. There is one in WoW. There was one to grind holos to get the uber jedi armor in SWG, although to grind a regular combat character took less than 2 days.

 

Developers are under the impression there is an unwritten rule to grind levels. If they had interesting quests like some single player games then the grind would disappear. For example in Fallout New Vegas it took about 50 hours (including side quests) to reach max level 20.

 

Having to kill Benny's body guards to get to Benny is one thing, but having to kill 20 rakghouls just to gain X amount of experience because some developer doesn't want to use his brain is another.

 

The Secret Worlds is stepping away from the leveling grind and it's focusing on skill based character development. Guild Wars 2 looks revolutionary in it's concept and I'm sure it will have a huge following, but swtor brought nothing new. Voice acting has zero value in end game and it slows development of new content due to the cinamatics. BW should of kept all this voice acting to the Mass Effect series and not try to implement it into a mmo. I know some disagree now but if you do come back and talk to me about it in a month or two. These mmo need to focus a lot more on end game content, because that is where everyone heads. In my opinion combat, content, world interaction and general fun in doing things alone or with others is a big part of a mmo.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Deepmemories

[ViridianFox]

Wait...What? Can someone please tell what exactly the 'grind' in this game is? Because I haven't noticed a 'grind'. There are a few bonus quests but they're bonus quests and you don't really need to do them. People really need to reevaluate what the term 'grind' means. I'm pretty sure the original term was doing a repetitive task which was boring and you only done it to progress or gain a certain item(s). So far I haven't found myself in a 'grind' at all.

[Baizak]

It has gone in DC Universe Online. 1-30 in 1 or 2 days - then raid and grind dailys for better gear and additional skill points with which to customize your build layout.

 

More games should follow this model IMNSHO because in 30 levels in a couple of days you can figure out how your class works. The great storylines in SWTOR are the only reason I'm cutting Bioware any slack right now on an otherwise unnecessarily long grindfest.

 

Really? Really? DCUO is not a model anyone should follow when making an MMO. That game is bad beyond belief.

[TheOnlyKyrenS]

Just go, OP. Just go.

[gurugeorge]

I find this:

 

Accept Quest: Kill Some Guy

While on my way to kill some guy, I blow up some of Some Guy's guards, and find out I get a bonus if I kill 30 of them. Hell, I was going to kill more than that just to get to Some Guy!

 

Preferable to this:

Accept Quest: Kill Some Guy's Guards.

Return to quest-giver.

Get Quest: Kill Some Guy.

 

Yes! I think this is a pretty significant improvement in the quest "flow" of an MMO.

 

With this game you get a feelling of venturing deep into enemy territory, and hoovering up quests as you go, and doing them as you go, rather than going to a quest "hub" or quest giver and going out radially and coming back, going out radially and coming back, going out radially and coming back ...

 

In this game, the "hubs" are the planets themselves, and one travels between them by spaceship. In the planet zones, the sequences of quest-givers are laid out more linear or fan-like, which is much easier on the brain, but also means less running back and forth.

 

You run a lot, but in one direction, penetrating into enemy territory, then you run back (or fast travel back, because usually you're within the fast travel timer by that stage).

[Darkulous]

Any MMO that has progression will inherently have a certain level of Grind. The level of grind is dependent on the player.

 

People talk about revolutionary MMO's coming out in the future that have fixed the "grind" problem. Really? Do the games offer progression? Yes? Than a certain level of grind will be present. The player, as always, will decide whether the grind is worth it.

[MadJerry]

I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, because, to me, you're describing the area where MMOs went completely wrong. You play one kind of game from level 1 to cap, and a totally different kind of game at cap, and if you like one kind of game, you probably won't like the other.

 

That's a fundamental genre design flaw, and while BioWare doesn't seem dead-set on changing it, they at least have a chance to mitigate it.

 

I am not being sarcastic, and I totally agree with you. Grinding is a completely different game from the high level raiding and such.

 

What I was trying to say there was that the game environments they created for leveling feel so contrived and shallow that I hardly find it plausible that someone would enjoy that aspect of the game, any more than sitting around a table rolling dice and imagining what a mustard jelly looks like. Add to that the fact that they are only challenging within a certain level bracket, meaning you have no need to return to them once you have leveled out of them. So after one hits the level cap on their toon, its almost as if that area does not even exist. All end game content takes place in concentrated and specific areas, where level capped players will always congregate.

[Mandrax]

There is a grind in SWTOR. There is one in WoW. There was one to grind holos to get the uber jedi armor in SWG, although to grind a regular combat character took less than 2 days.

 

Developers are under the impression there is an unwritten rule to grind levels. If they had interesting quests like some single player games then the grind would disappear. For example in Fallout New Vegas it took about 50 hours (including side quests) to reach max level 20.

 

Having to kill Benny's body guards to get to Benny is one thing, but having to kill 20 rakghouls just to gain X amount of experience because some developer doesn't want to use his brain is another.

 

The longer they persuade you to stay, the more money you give them through subscriptions.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Mandrax

[jestertron]

 

Having to kill Benny's body guards to get to Benny is one thing, but having to kill 20 rakghouls just to gain X amount of experience because some developer doesn't want to use his brain is another.

 

you know you don't have to do those.

[jestertron]

my personal opinion is this: MMOs without a grind could tend to be on the suck department. there has to be something that you need to do to learn your character and invest the MMO feeling of time with something you care about. I expect good mmos to have a grind, so you can feel the "yes! finally I dinged I can start doing this and this and this and this now!" Also, you need to have a reason for wanting to level up another character, hence Bioware making the grind in this game like watching a Star Wars film.

 

After playing Skyrim for 2 months, I'm convinced Bethesda would be the only company that could pull the by skill grind off. However, that would be a terrible idea because I play games like that simply for it's sandboxed single player game.

[Darkulous]

Almost all games, not just mmo's, offer progression. Progression = Grind.

[DeathDiciple]

Aside from a couple of heroics and what not that had 'kill x mobs' as only objective, I've yet to see the grind in this game? Most of the killing is either finished by the time you reach the primary objective (yes you do have to fight your way through the enemy base, they wont just hand their boss/codes/items to you) or bonuses.

 

There definitely are enough quests and stuff to do to level, why exactly is grind necessary here? If anything, I ended up not caring, not even thinking about levels and xp needed to level here.

[kasanth]

Have you played MMORPGs before WoW?

You want a grind? Go play them before WoW where you couldnt do ANYTHING without a group, leveling or questing.

 

You couldnt quest your way to level cap.

Most of your levels were earned through standing in one area, killing the same mobs

over, and over. and over again.

Spend 14 straight hours doing that and you may gain a level and a half.

It was common to sit at the same level for a week, and in some cases a month.

 

WoW and SWTOR are not even close to a real grind.

[Paksis]

I understand the frustration But it's not so bad. Every MMO is bound to have intervals where the "grind" can be necessary or beneficial even. It can get boring, but there are ways to break up the monotony a bit.

 

Truth is, every game has a limit. It's just not the real world.. you know? And I mean that with all respect. Eventually everyone will hit the ceiling and run out of things to do because a game isn't really meant or able to perpetuate realistic growth. It's just an isolated environment of entertainment.

 

One way to help with the feeling of mindless grinding is, quite frankly, taking a break and doing something else altogether for a little while. Games aren't meant to be played for hours and hours and even days on end. (Though it can be fun! Hehe.) Sometimes, when I'm not working, I just step back and read a book, exercise, or play a different game. Then go back when I feel refreshed. It really helps

Edited January 8, 2012 by Paksis
Mispelled Context

[phatmhat]

ppl are so funny.

 

grinding is so relative. ppl want a story - so they get one. and for the most part ppl like the stories in this game - regardless of their level.

 

ppl want to pvp - which if you think about is essentially grinding but through real players. you even get xp to level up with by grinding through pvp.

 

it always make me laugh when ppl talk about grinding through levels. isnt the point of logging on to PLAY the game? COMBAT? kill stuff? use skills? AND YOU"RE DOING THIS AT EVERY LEVEL. so what more are ppl asking for when it comes to leveling? i want to be level 50 NOW or SOON so...so what? for what? to play the game THEN? to combat THEN? im just baffled.

 

ya wana know something scary? rpgs are a PERFECT BUSINESS MODEL. ppl want stuff. doll it out only as they pay. sersiously that is whats been going on in mmorpgs. hold that carrot out there - new armor. new spells. whatever. and make it so you can't get it unless you pay about 15 bucks for it. (or make your game ftp and then just ask them for the 5 bucks or whatever straight up.)

 

either way the gameplay is essentially the same. you log in and you kill stuff.

 

ppl dont know *** they want and so its no wonder no one is happy.

[TESTyourMIGHT]

Almost all games, not just mmo's, offer progression. Progression = Grind.

 

It should be noted that I think ultimately, progression needs to be changed as far as PACE is concerned with many RPG's and MMO's alike. Like in Diablo 2, for example (not an MMO, but this is irrelevent): one of the important aspects to note was the idea you could get to level 80 in one day if you worked at it for quite awhile.. anything after that took some serious time to do, though.. but that wasn't a bad thing, because there was a ton of content at the end of the game to look forward to.

 

I don't think leveling is a bad concept, moreso HOW it's done. It's tough deciding where tod raw the line, though. Make it too slow and it's boring. Make it too fast and it feels effortless and lackluster (also boring). In the game's current state I'd make it fast(er) to get to level 40, and have the remaining levels take exponentially more time. The only drawback? There needs to be plenty of content to back up something like this. This game is great, but I think the amount of potential loot is sadly lacking. I'm sure that will change as time progresses, though.

[masaville]

There is a grind in SWTOR. There is one in WoW. There was one to grind holos to get the uber jedi armor in SWG, although to grind a regular combat character took less than 2 days.

 

Developers are under the impression there is an unwritten rule to grind levels. If they had interesting quests like some single player games then the grind would disappear. For example in Fallout New Vegas it took about 50 hours (including side quests) to reach max level 20.

 

Having to kill Benny's body guards to get to Benny is one thing, but having to kill 20 rakghouls just to gain X amount of experience because some developer doesn't want to use his brain is another.

 

Yup. This game is about as boring as it gets. At least with WoW I wanted to play. Here, I'd rather see what's up in the forums since nobody is in the game. This whole instanced world makes it feel like single player, so what's the point in grinding it out. Might as well go play Skyrim, etc. SW Galaxies was much better.

[Paralassa]

Hi there!

 

The General Discussion forum should be focused on the Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ game, and as such, please be sure to create topics which encourage specific gameplay discussion and not general MMO discussion.

 

As this thread is off-topic, we have closed it. Thank you.