Stealth and the Shadow Tank

[mbjones]

Hi all,

 

My Jedi Shadow Tank is currently level 18 and I am thinking about tanking the Hammer Station soon. Should I use Stealth to pull\open combat (with Shadow Strike) or not? Is Stealth used at the end game by Shadow Tanks?

 

Thanks

 

Jedi Embi-Jai of RP-PvP Lord Calypho

[ThaGoods]

No we do not stealth because eventually we will get a force pull. Early level tanking you have the right idea, but be careful you may be seen. The most important thing to remember is when you lose threat use mind control and keep projecting. Until you get Slow time, project + Telekentic throw are your go too moves. When you need force use saber strike.

[feliix]

Stealth is very useful for setting up some cc pre-pull.

Just be careful about application, and try to drag the

engaged enemies away from the cc when you pull.

 

You'll get mind maze at level 20.

 

Shadow strike is very expensive for a tiny bit of

additional damage as a shadow tank, there are

probably other things you can do at various levels

that more efficiently use your available force.

 

My typical low level tanking pull started from stealth

for a mind maze, leave invis with a double strike,

kite to a fight location that drew enemies away from

the cc.

[Kaffis]

Opening with Shadow Strike is generally a terrible idea. Even infiltration specced Shadows only want to use Shadow Strike when they've got the Find Weakness proc up to make it affordable.

 

I often do find myself using stealth before combat, though. Why? Because I need stealth to use Mind Maze. You're not at a high enough level to have it, though, I don't think. Mind Maze is a 60 second mez that can only be used from stealth.

 

So on difficult pulls, I typically mark a few targets for my group members to CC (slice, Sage's Force Lift since they get to extend its duration if the spec for it, the Commando one I can never remember, Tranquilize, etc. All healing specs get access to at least one 60 second mez), then stealth, Blackout to get close, and Mind Maze. Then I open up with a TK Throw or Double Strike, move things into position away from the mezzed targets (Force Speed really helps with LOSing ranged targets), and then let loose with Breach, Whirling Blade, and/or Double Strike to start proccing Particle Accelerations.

 

When we kill the unmezzed stuff, Force Pull is an easy way to pick the next guy out of the mezzed group so we can use stuff like Combat Breach that would otherwise break mez. I find this much more useful than burning its 45 second cooldown on the pull.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Kaffis

[mbjones]

Thank you all, cleared a few things up for me.

[Silverspar]

No we do not stealth because eventually we will get a force pull. Early level tanking you have the right idea, but be careful you may be seen. The most important thing to remember is when you lose threat use mind control and keep projecting. Until you get Slow time, project + Telekentic throw are your go too moves. When you need force use saber strike.

 

Force Pull is not an opener. This is something you use to peel a baddie off a squishy or grab a fleeing mob, not something you use to start a fight with. And yes, a shadow tank uses stealth, we have a long CC, we use it and any shadow tank forsaking mind maze is just being silly. Stealth also lets us set up a good spot for tanking when we start the pull.

[Zintair]

Force Pull is not an opener. This is something you use to peel a baddie off a squishy or grab a fleeing mob, not something you use to start a fight with. And yes, a shadow tank uses stealth, we have a long CC, we use it and any shadow tank forsaking mind maze is just being silly. Stealth also lets us set up a good spot for tanking when we start the pull.

 

Well Id like to slightly disagree with this. While I acknowledge that you should not use Force Pull to open up on mobs there have a been a few hardmode FPs where we would CC two adds and I would yank the middle mob into more adds that are spawning to sort of centralize the AoE. I did it specifically on like Esseles and Maelstrom with all the adds that come running through doors once you start the pull.

 

I basically pull one of the silvers into that area and let the AoE do its work.

 

Its basically an ability to help organize position, make focus firing easy and allow you to yank mobs back to you if they peel off and run toward a group member.

 

 

EDIT: As a tank I never use Shadow Strike unless the mob is nearly dead and Spinning Blade is down and I wanna look flashy when I kill the mob. I'll either use Project and hope for the Upheaval proc or use Shadow Strike cause I like seeing the burn hole on their backs as they fall to the ground. Shadow Strike has no room in a good tanking rotation however.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Zintair

[Silverspar]

I never said anything about shadow strike, shadow strike isn't even on my bar. My belief and it remains that way, is if you aren't infiltration just take it off your bar. Same with Mind Crush, if you aren't balance, take it off your bar. I use stealth to set up a good spot for tanking in. IE getting in between a group then opening up with a nice AE like slow time or Force Breach or both, unless there is a mezzed mob nearby then I use project which often throws two rocks for me.

 

My basic rotation typically falling on a project double strike, strike, double strike until I get a proc or project refreshes. Then once I get three shadow stacks I use TK throw. Use of AEs depending on if there is a mezzed target nearby or not.

[Zintair]

I never said anything about shadow strike, shadow strike isn't even on my bar. My belief and it remains that way, is if you aren't infiltration just take it off your bar. Same with Mind Crush, if you aren't balance, take it off your bar. I use stealth to set up a good spot for tanking in. IE getting in between a group then opening up with a nice AE like slow time or Force Breach or both, unless there is a mezzed mob nearby then I use project which often throws two rocks for me.

 

My basic rotation typically falling on a project double strike, strike, double strike until I get a proc or project refreshes. Then once I get three shadow stacks I use TK throw. Use of AEs depending on if there is a mezzed target nearby or not.

 

Oh No sorry that Edit was for a direct @OP to never use the ability. I was only pointing out some unique ideas for Force Pull to open up with.

[Rejectoo]

I use stealth to setup my CC and things before my pull then to target and get a good back stab in to get some good threat before the first taunt. Put has someone else noted force Pull is the bomb. It is also good to get that 1 or 2 mobs the game designers love to stick off all alone into the AoE for other classes or yank that mob off a healer.

[Samyrius]

My basic rotation typically falling on a project double strike, strike, double strike until I get a proc or project refreshes. Then once I get three shadow stacks I use TK throw. Use of AEs depending on if there is a mezzed target nearby or not.

 

You're saying you open with Project? Why would you do that?

[Kaffis]

You're saying you open with Project? Why would you do that?

On a single target, why wouldn't you? It's one of our harder hitting abilities, often with bonus threat (from bombardment); if you get a natural crit, it can activate (if talented) bonus crit rates for melee attacks; and it's not like you're losing anything by activating it without a PA proc -- when PA does proc, it'll reset the cooldown. You can also do it at 10m while still closing on the target.

 

For multiple targets? Okay, yeah, I'd rather Breach on the way in and then follow up with Whirling Blade.

[Silverspar]

On a single target, why wouldn't you? It's one of our harder hitting abilities, often with bonus threat (from bombardment); if you get a natural crit, it can activate (if talented) bonus crit rates for melee attacks; and it's not like you're losing anything by activating it without a PA proc -- when PA does proc, it'll reset the cooldown. You can also do it at 10m while still closing on the target.

 

For multiple targets? Okay, yeah, I'd rather Breach on the way in and then follow up with Whirling Blade.

 

Breaching is something you do when there aren't mezzed targets nearby. And I would rather use slow time on targets, harder hitting (even more so after patch) and 5% off on damage is way more useful than 5% off on accuracy and increased threat from slow time. Breach is good in its own way, but you don't use AEs unless the target you are hitting isn't close to mezzed enemies. That's tanking 101.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Silverspar

[oddmyth]

On a single target, why wouldn't you? It's one of our harder hitting abilities, often with bonus threat (from bombardment); if you get a natural crit, it can activate (if talented) bonus crit rates for melee attacks; and it's not like you're losing anything by activating it without a PA proc -- when PA does proc, it'll reset the cooldown. You can also do it at 10m while still closing on the target.

 

For multiple targets? Okay, yeah, I'd rather Breach on the way in and then follow up with Whirling Blade.

 

See many of the other threads, Project should only be used on PA proc. You are basically force starving yourself for mediocre damage.

 

We have limited resources, you have to find the most efficient ways of dealing damage, while using the least amount of force and maintaining your debuffs on the target(s).

[feliix]

The original poster seemed to mostly be focused on early levels, with

an additional question for later game. As for opening with project...

 

Well, at higher levels you can indeed get it all, at least for now.

You can proc PA pre-pull, invis, get pre combat cc's off, and throw

your PA buffed project followed by a move to a cc safe combat

area.

 

Just whirling blow pre combat, proc PA, then do your pre combat cc.

You'll still have time on PA for a buffed project. And by the time you

move to a cc safe battle location, your force will have regenerated.

 

Or just eschew project and start off with a double strike.

[Samyrius]

On a single target, why wouldn't you? It's one of our harder hitting abilities, often with bonus threat (from bombardment); if you get a natural crit, it can activate (if talented) bonus crit rates for melee attacks; and it's not like you're losing anything by activating it without a PA proc -- when PA does proc, it'll reset the cooldown. You can also do it at 10m while still closing on the target.

You're absolutely losing something: you're losing 25 force and a third of your damage if it doesn't crit. There's no reason for force-starving yourself this early in a fight. Opening with Project seems like a poor choice.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Samyrius

[dronepilot]

Strange I often try the stealth - back stab approach, often failing because the NPC detects me behind him before I have managed to strike. Is it that the higher the NPC is or Player is, the better chance they have of detecting you in stealth - but from behind ? how ?

[dronepilot]

You're absolutely losing something: you're losing 25 force and a third of your damage if it doesn't crit. There's no reason for force-starving yourself this early in a fight. Opening with Project seems like a poor choice.

 

Good point, after lots of playing around with this I can safely agree with that. But I usually open up with mind maze or some thing like that. TBH

[kaydo_]

thanks guys, this thread helped a budding shadow tank. i've been opening with Project on a further out secondary target, kind of treating it like avenger's shield from my tankadin days, then Breach, and Double Strike on main target. That practically exhausts my Force though, so no wonder DPS can pull threat...

 

I'll conserve Force, lock on the main, keep breach up and trust dps to focus fire too.