Selecting Need for your companion

[Eldren]

I love the mental gymnastics. OK - we cooperate on downing bosses. YOU, unilaterally, picking need for an item (say that you cannot even equip) to give to another (companion, alt, stranger, guildmate, alt's companion, alt's friends neighbors sister) means you are stating that anyone in the game YOU unilaterally deem worthy is just as entitled to the fruits of the labors of the group they were not in. Anyone in the game is just as entitled to "Need" that loot - even if they don't need it in the R/L definition way - because YOU are entitled to decide to elevate those who did nothing to being full party members, with rights and privileges therein, to benefit from those living breathing people of the fruits of their labor because YOU are capable of hitting the need button.

 

The problem with your approach, OK, is you're equating companions with non-present guild members/alts/friends/etc. That isn't the case. Companions are parts of each of our characters, and as a result, they're a part of your upgrade path. I'd be in agreement that needing on a BOE to equip a non-present guild member or other actual player is in poor taste, though in its broadest application it likely amounts to the same thing in many folks' minds.

 

Since a companion is a part of my character assumed to be present in the majority of content I'm going to run until I hit level cap and spend all my time in dailies, HM Flashpoints and Operations, I'm going to upgrade them as a viable upgrade option.

 

We've actually talked about it in my guild chat, and all the guild members are in agreement: our companions need upgrades, and if a companion gets an upgrade, the guild still benefits via times when there are just two of us in a Flashpoint and both our companions are out, or when two of us are questing together. Once we're running Operations, we'll see if we adjust anything. I figure we likely won't.

 

I've even asked coworkers here today, as I'm surrounded by four people who all play. They're all in agreement with me: it's just fine to equip companions via FP or Ops drops.

 

And none of them use these forums, so it makes me wonder just how many other players like that hold the same perspective.

[Cartumandua]

The solution remains simple. Discuss loot rules before you begin a group.

[OdonKnight]

The problem with your approach, OK, is you're equating companions with non-present guild members/alts/friends/etc. That isn't the case. Companions are parts of each of our characters, and as a result, they're a part of your upgrade path. I'd be in agreement that needing on a BOE to equip a non-present guild member or other actual player is in poor taste, though in its broadest application it likely amounts to the same thing in many folks' minds.

 

Since a companion is a part of my character assumed to be present in the majority of content I'm going to run until I hit level cap and spend all my time in dailies, HM Flashpoints and Operations, I'm going to upgrade them as a viable upgrade option.

 

We've actually talked about it in my guild chat, and all the guild members are in agreement: our companions need upgrades, and if a companion gets an upgrade, the guild still benefits via times when there are just two of us in a Flashpoint and both our companions are out, or when two of us are questing together. Once we're running Operations, we'll see if we adjust anything. I figure we likely won't.

 

I've even asked coworkers here today, as I'm surrounded by four people who all play. They're all in agreement with me: it's just fine to equip companions via FP or Ops drops.

 

And none of them use these forums, so it makes me wonder just how many other players like that hold the same perspective.

 

You avoid the entitlement issue (you being entitled to need for items you dont need but that others who were not on the mission might need) and it smacks of desperation that a conveniently unnamed guild unanimously agreed as well as convenient coworkers you decided to ask today just in time.

 

response: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/raidlootgmanswer.jpg/

[LoveBucket]

I can say from my many years of experience playing MMOs that any time there was a person in a group that rolled need for something they obviously didn't *truly* need, they were definitely frowned upon.

 

I agree with everyone who's mentioned asking first, it's just the best way to go about it if you're worried about anyone getting upset.

 

Yes, I know that our companions play a key role in our game play with SWTOR *but* they shouldn't have priority over someone who needs a piece of armor for their actual main character. If you roll need on something that I need and it's clear you are not going to be wearing that piece of armor, of course I'm not going to be happy about it.

 

This doesn't mean I'm going to throw a temper tantrum but I certainly would take note of who you are and warn anyone else in my guild and those I know not to group with you. I wouldn't do that with the silly idea it would punish you, I would do that to protect people I know from having the same experience.

 

There are plenty of ways to get decent armor for your companions, I personally use commendations, especially when there's nothing decent for my character.

[PolishTank]

The problem with your approach, OK, is you're equating companions with non-present guild members/alts/friends/etc. That isn't the case. Companions are parts of each of our characters, and as a result, they're a part of your upgrade path. I'd be in agreement that needing on a BOE to equip a non-present guild member or other actual player is in poor taste, though in its broadest application it likely amounts to the same thing in many folks' minds.

 

Since a companion is a part of my character assumed to be present in the majority of content I'm going to run until I hit level cap and spend all my time in dailies, HM Flashpoints and Operations, I'm going to upgrade them as a viable upgrade option.

 

We've actually talked about it in my guild chat, and all the guild members are in agreement: our companions need upgrades, and if a companion gets an upgrade, the guild still benefits via times when there are just two of us in a Flashpoint and both our companions are out, or when two of us are questing together. Once we're running Operations, we'll see if we adjust anything. I figure we likely won't.

 

I've even asked coworkers here today, as I'm surrounded by four people who all play. They're all in agreement with me: it's just fine to equip companions via FP or Ops drops.

 

And none of them use these forums, so it makes me wonder just how many other players like that hold the same perspective.

 

And the troll finally makes himself obvious. Well done on getting such a rise out of everyone!

[Draflorin]

Companions are an extension of your character, so if you need to enhance your game play ability by upping the ability of your companion - go for it.

 

What are you grouping for anyway? for the chance to get better gear to enhance your gameplay/character, and i know that if my companion is top notch it makes things a lot easier for me to get through harder content alone.

 

Each person has an equal chance at the roll - that's the fair part, if you lose the roll, line up again and have another go like every other mmo.

 

if i need it, i need it - if i don't i pass

Edited January 6, 2012 by Draflorin

[SingleCoilPickup]

And the troll finally makes himself obvious. Well done on getting such a rise out of everyone!

 

Really, you're going to label Eldren as a troll to try to validate your argument?

 

Regardless of whether you agree with his or her opinion on the matter, the fact is that he or she has presented nothing but a level-headed constructive debate on the issue.

 

Labeling someone a troll doesn't mean you're right.

[Eldren]

You avoid the entitlement issue (you being entitled to need for items you dont need but that others who were not on the mission might need) and it smacks of desperation that a conveniently unnamed guild unanimously agreed as well as convenient coworkers you decided to ask today just in time.

 

response: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/raidlootgmanswer.jpg/

 

I avoid the entitlement issue because it isn't there. 4 people cooperate in a Flashpoint, 4 people have the option to roll. Some choose a lower-priority roll than others, but it was still their choice. They can't then get upset with someone who chose a higher priority roll. If they were that worried about losing the roll, they could have likewise chosen the highest priority rolling option.

 

4 people go in, 4 people have the same chance at loot. Nothing could be more fair, more impartial.

 

As for your comments about a "conveniently unnamed guild" unanimously agreeing (guilds tend to do that, agree: it's why they're a guild to begin with), or even coworkers that I asked just a few minutes ago (because we're talking about it now here; funny how that works...)... what's your point? Do you ask everyone you know far ahead of a point where it's relevant conversation? Your whole argument is falling apart for one simple reason: you're upset with how someone else is choosing to play their character.

 

What's likely of greater upset to you, I think, is simply that you want to control how others play the game, and you can't.

[rocketeerabc]

Rolling need for anything but your main char and current spec is nothing but abusing the semi anonimity of the big servers we have. You know perfectly well it will piss people off, but you do it anyway because you do not have to fear the consequences as later groups won't be aware of it.

 

If you do something out of an expectations of not having to face the consequences, something you wouldn't do otherwise, chances are its wrong.

 

Just give us a rating system, like ebay or amazon uses for sellers. At the end of every run people can choose to rate one of their companions for good or for bad. That gets attached to your char in the group finder(f.e. [8:2 +:-] meaning 10 ratings of which 8 where positive nad 2 negative), and then people can decide beforehand wether they want to group with someone just like we can decide beforehand wether we want to buy something on amazon/ebay.

 

Why not use a system of which we know it works? Only being able to give one rating per run would ensure you would only rate something you felt strongly about, and you could only rate a person once per account to prevent abuse. Btw that would filter out alot more than just ninja looters ...

[FuzzPop]

Bearing in mind that, as we progress in level, that we all have access to multiple companions and hence multiple reasons to collect gear for each and every one of them.

 

As they all influence our gameplay experience, this absolutely has a bearing on how we behave in a flashpoint.

 

All the socialization and discussion prior is a good thing, but it still does not resolve one issue: that of the person who agrees to the group's loot rules, but when the shiny piece of gear drops, he goes against the group, wins the loot, and quickly leaves.

 

No matter what happens, the simplest solution really is this:

 

Always be the last person to roll - so you can keep an eye on who's doing what. If there is a ninja, then you follow suit. By doing this you cover yourself.

[jayderyu]

Again?

 

Yes you are Wrong.

Your Companion will not go into a FP with a full group.

Your Companion will not raid.

What you take from another Player who NEEDS it for a FP or Raid will not get it.

 

It's simple. If you want it for your Companion ASK to NEED it for you companion. Don't take it by assuming that you are required too because you travel mostly with your companion.

 

You are essentially taking gear from another HUMAN PLAYER who needs it NOW to be more effective at Flash Points.

 

I'm not against people taking gear for their Companions, but they are an NPC. Ask for it first. It's simple and polite.

[AlkalineKitten]

Pretty lame of you, in my opinion.

[Nanomancer]

It's only your opinion that I'm some kind of jerk for rolling need for a companion.

 

The opinions of a small minority of players in a video game are of very little consequence in my life.

 

im just glad there is a very small chance we are on the same server.

[SingleCoilPickup]

Here's a suggestion of what I think is a good way to treat this issue that should make everybody happy and able to play how they want.

 

The group leader should be able to set looting rules and a mechanic should exist to enforce them. For example, the leader could say "Need for primary character only" and then the Need option doesn't show up on items that the primary character can't use - eliminating the need for companion issue for people who don't like to play that way. Alternatively, there would be a "Need for PC or Companion" that would let you need if it's something you or a companion you currently have (not out, but have available). Finally a "Open Need" option that lets anyone Need for any reason.

 

Then we can all join groups who play by Loot rules we think are fair and we can all avoid this in the future. Is there anyone that doesn't find a solution like this to be workable?

Edited January 6, 2012 by SingleCoilPickup

[rocketeerabc]

Besides what exactly does a companion NEED FP gear for? Players NEED gear to be able to participate in heroics or raids, but companions? Even green gear will be plenty sufficent for any solo quest content in this game unless im mistaken.

[OdonKnight]

I avoid the entitlement issue because it isn't there. 4 people cooperate in a Flashpoint, 4 people have the option to roll. Some choose a lower-priority roll than others, but it was still their choice. They can't then get upset with someone who chose a higher priority roll. If they were that worried about losing the roll, they could have likewise chosen the highest priority rolling option.

 

4 people go in, 4 people have the same chance at loot. Nothing could be more fair, more impartial.

 

As for your comments about a "conveniently unnamed guild" unanimously agreeing (guilds tend to do that, agree: it's why they're a guild to begin with), or even coworkers that I asked just a few minutes ago (because we're talking about it now here; funny how that works...)... what's your point? Do you ask everyone you know far ahead of a point where it's relevant conversation? Your whole argument is falling apart for one simple reason: you're upset with how someone else is choosing to play their character.

 

What's likely of greater upset to you, I think, is simply that you want to control how others play the game, and you can't.

 

The defense rests:

 

 

Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.[3] {my companion (or any one else I deem qualified) is an extension of me because I say so}

 

I, in disagreeing with your sense of entitlement to abuse the need button for anything you deem you need, even if you cannot use it, is an attempt at controlling you? No, it is an attempt at exposing you and your make believe unanimous guild and unanimous friends. Do you realize how difficult it is to get a group of diverse human being to all agree on something or the chances they all will be of initial agreement upon being posed a question?

Edited January 6, 2012 by OdonKnight

[PolishTank]

Really, you're going to label Eldren as a troll to try to validate your argument?

 

Regardless of whether you agree with his or her opinion on the matter, the fact is that he or she has presented nothing but a level-headed constructive debate on the issue.

 

Labeling someone a troll doesn't mean you're right.

 

Chance of 4 people that "work around him" actually play this game exist = 10%

 

If they do exist, chance that all 4 agree that being a Loot Ninja is ok = 0%

 

Chance that any guild would EVER collectively agree that being a Loot Ninja is ok = 0%

 

Like I said, Eldren's a troll.

Edited January 6, 2012 by PolishTank

[SingleCoilPickup]

Chance of 4 people that "work around him" actually play this game exist = 10%

 

If they do exist, chance that all 4 agree that being a Loot Ninja is ok = 0%

 

Chance that any guild would EVER collectively agree that being a Loot Ninja is ok = 0%

 

Like I said, Eldren's a troll.

 

I have 5-6 guys at my work who play. It depends where you work and who works with you. You can't just assume that there's no way people around someone play or don't.

 

I haven't taken a poll of everyone here's looting preferences, but one guy I play with almost every night plays the same as I do, so I don't think this as much of a stretch as your junk statistics indicate.

[Petromir]

Again?

 

Yes you are Wrong.

Your Companion will not go into a FP with a full group.

Your Companion will not raid.

What you take from another Player who NEEDS it for a FP or Raid will not get it.

 

It's simple. If you want it for your Companion ASK to NEED it for you companion. Don't take it by assuming that you are required too because you travel mostly with your companion.

 

You are essentially taking gear from another HUMAN PLAYER who needs it NOW to be more effective at Flash Points.

 

I'm not against people taking gear for their Companions, but they are an NPC. Ask for it first. It's simple and polite.

 

There are two main logical arguments in this issue:

 

a) The Companions are part of the charecter and therefore if its an improvement for them its fine to need it.

 

b) the companion is an NPC or alt spec and therfore isnt entitled to roll need for it.

 

 

The soloution is what I consider good practice in any group situation out of a regular group or guild in any game;

 

Clarify looting rules BEFORE you start. This goes for both sides of the argument. IF you havent done this then if people are looting by an alternate rules standard to you, clarify the loot rules at the next convient moment. If you havent clarified the rules beforehand then you cant take umbridge against anything thatn isnt clearly malitious.

 

THere are absolutes that are always unacceptiable and acceptible in groups, but anyone who thinks this is anything like proper ninja looting is unreasonable.

[Eldren]

The defense rests:

 

 

Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.[3] {my companion (or any one else I deem qualified) is an extension of me because I say so}

 

I, in disagreeing with your sense of entitlement to abuse the need button for anything you deem you need, even if you cannot use is an attempt at controlling you? No, it is an attempt at exposing you and your make believe unanimous guild and unanimous friends. Do you realize how difficult it is to get a group of diverse human being to all agree on something or the chances they all will be of initial agreement upon being posed a question?

 

You're correct in one thing: the defense has rested. The problem is, it's rested because it can't offer compelling defense.

 

I don't consider your disagreement with my position as an attack on my superiority. I consider it a difference of opinion: you're attempting to set up an absolute where one can't be set up.

 

Undeniably, companions are a part of our characters, and a part whose presence and capability is assumed in the design of each "tier" of leveling content, or any content we're running that doesn't involve other players. This is where each player of this game spends the majority of their time: in non-group content.

 

IF companions are an assumed part of leveling (which is true), and,

IF companions require gear upgrades to remain level-appropriate capable (which is true), and,

IF upgrades are available in a variety of sources (which is true), and,

IF we all want the most expedient method of gearing up everything involved with our characters (which is true),

THEN it only makes sense to pursue the path of least resistance, which is staking a claim, in all situations where one can be staked, to any upgrades which become available. When uncontested, it isn't an issue (GTN purchases, quest rewards, world drops). When contested, an impartial system of distribution determination is required, which we have (the loot rolling system).

 

Your acceptance of my guild and its agreement on loot distribution is irrelevant. I know it to be true, you have no way of knowing if it's true, and you thus can't be convinced. Your acceptance of my coworkers' perspective (those who play, anyway; those who don't won't care) is irrelevant for the same reasons.

 

End result, and the reality I experience: I ask if I can as a courtesy, I do so if I want as a reality, I deal with all consequences as a result. I've yet to deal with any negative consequences from my approach, and my name is already reasonably well-known on several worlds on my server because I *GASP!* actually talk with people. My position is known, as is the respectful manner in which I exercise it.

 

It doesn't affect your game, so why do you care so much?

[Stormwater]

Debatable. Your companion increases the damage/defense/healing output, as a tool or part of your gear/equipment. Therefore, rolling need for your companion could be rolling need for an extension of your gear, that if your companion participated in the kill/fight. Edited January 6, 2012 by Stormwater

[EternalFinality]

Many players are also hardcore single-player players who are fans of Bioware/KOTOR/SW and only play this because one or more of these 3 listed are on their "like/love" list, despite that they hate mmo-s.

 

If you're a hardcore single player player then why are you in a flashpoint with a group of other players?

 

Play single player and stay away from the rest of us - you get to keep ALL the loot that way.

 

This is part of where the disagreement comes from: you don't think the companion actually needs an upgrade outside of quest gear. If someone else disagrees with you, since it's their character and not yours, their choice outweighs yours.

 

Fine then - prove it. Prove that you can't get to level 50 without gearing your companion through flashpoints. I mean, that's what you actually need your companion for, right?

 

I, on the other hand, can prove you wrong - as I'm level 49 and have never placed a single piece of flashpoint gear on any companion. I've been gearing all 5 of my companions through random questing drops and rewards the entire game and have had NO issues soloing content that is meant to be soloed.

 

Thus - you do not actually need to roll need on companion gear when in a group.

 

Questions like this are very interesting to me because it is a 100% social rule that has been completely made up. There is nothing in the game stopping you from rolling "need" for a companion - therefore, it is technically fine and completely viable.

 

However, players will often make up social rules and then vehemently enforce them on others. There have been a few interesting studies about how far players go to enforce rules that do not exist programmatically.

 

Many people in this thread attempt to apply social pressure to others to play the game the way -they- believe it should be played. There is absolutely nothing in-game that says it should be played that way; they have just decided it should be true, and resort to lots of anger and negative reinforcement to enforce their viewpoint of what is "right" and "wrong" in the game.

 

There's nothing preventing you from always rolling need even if neither you nor your companions are upgraded by the gear.

 

But we all know it's wrong. Right and wrong do exist even if there is no "rule" in the code of the game enforcing it.

 

Most reasonable people have decided that needing for companions is wrong. Buck this trend at your own peril.

[dipstik]

this needs to be sorted out before the first mob is killed, if i greed for my companion, then u ask, "can i need for comp?" I am going to say no, since I would have needed for comp if i knew we were doing that. i most definatly do not need on something for your companion that can be used by another player.

[PolishTank]

There is no rationale for the pro Loot Ninjas regarding this issue. Just like there is no acceptable rationale for thieves. When it comes to items found in a group quest, only participants in the quest that can use the item get first option to take it. If this applies to more than one, then they roll Need for it to settle the issue.

 

Anyone who deviates from this very basic, easy to understand ethic is a ******* thief. Loot Ninjas can blah blah about needing for their companion all they want, just like Loot Ninja's blah blah about Needing for crafting, money, alts, and whatever else in every other MMO. They're still ******* thieves, and god I wish MMOs would somehow mark players who always roll need on items they can't use so I don't have to group with them and not find out until it's too late.

Edited January 6, 2012 by PolishTank

[Draflorin]

You're correct in one thing: the defense has rested. The problem is, it's rested because it can't offer compelling defense.

 

I don't consider your disagreement with my position as an attack on my superiority. I consider it a difference of opinion: you're attempting to set up an absolute where one can't be set up.

 

Undeniably, companions are a part of our characters, and a part whose presence and capability is assumed in the design of each "tier" of leveling content, or any content we're running that doesn't involve other players. This is where each player of this game spends the majority of their time: in non-group content.

 

IF companions are an assumed part of leveling (which is true), and,

IF companions require gear upgrades to remain level-appropriate capable (which is true), and,

IF upgrades are available in a variety of sources (which is true), and,

IF we all want the most expedient method of gearing up everything involved with our characters (which is true),

THEN it only makes sense to pursue the path of least resistance, which is staking a claim, in all situations where one can be staked, to any upgrades which become available. When uncontested, it isn't an issue (GTN purchases, quest rewards, world drops). When contested, an impartial system of distribution determination is required, which we have (the loot rolling system).

 

Your acceptance of my guild and its agreement on loot distribution is irrelevant. I know it to be true, you have no way of knowing if it's true, and you thus can't be convinced. Your acceptance of my coworkers' perspective (those who play, anyway; those who don't won't care) is irrelevant for the same reasons.

 

End result, and the reality I experience: I ask if I can as a courtesy, I do so if I want as a reality, I deal with all consequences as a result. I've yet to deal with any negative consequences from my approach, and my name is already reasonably well-known on several worlds on my server because I *GASP!* actually talk with people. My position is known, as is the respectful manner in which I exercise it.

 

It doesn't affect your game, so why do you care so much?

 

Agree