Selecting Need for your companion

[Xenich]

I think your argument contains a fallacy, and that's the assumption that the only content that "matters" is group content.

 

It is only relevant to group content as those attending your group outing are only in the group for that specific content. That is, solo content on your part is irrelevant to their focus. Your achievements outside of that are irrelevant. It is a group event, a group focus, a group reward. What you do after or before the group is irrelevant. Your solo play is irrelevant to the group.

 

 

 

 

 

If you're doing nothing but group content from 1st level to 50th (which I know you aren't unless you're completely ignoring your class story, which is solo play from 1-50), your perspective would be valid. As it stands, however, it isn't.

 

No, it is simply a matter of what is being done at the time. I don't take a botched sale I had with another player can carry it into another sale expecting them to carry the difference, but you make the argument that the group you enter should somehow be concerned with you outside of the success and failure of that grouping. If you group for one hour with people in a specific instance, then all that is relevant is the effort, players, and actions within that time limit. If your companion is not present within that time period to contribute, your companion and your activities outside of it are irrelevant.

 

 

We go into group content for a quality of gear that supersedes that we get from solo content. We then take that gear out into solo content to do it easier, until it gets upgraded by higher-end solo gear, GTN purchases, commendation gear, or higher-end FP gear.

 

And you are constrained by the contract of those who choose to interact with you in that content. That is, it is expected generally by the basic principal of interaction that those who contribute also gain equal measure of compensation for their contribution. Since your companion did not contribute, what grounds do you have to expect compensation for them? What grounds do you have to expect activity and performance outside of the grouping to be compensated?

 

 

 

 

In short, we're in FPs to get gear we're going to use outside the group. So its impact on solo play is very meaningful.

 

What you do outside of the group is irrelevant. If you consistently run in circles, die, or what have you is irrelevant. It has no purchase in the position that the group members for a specific "group venture" should be concerned. It is your problem, your concern, not theirs. The fact you may fail solo or succeed is irrelevant, a non-issue.

 

You aren't required to be concerned about anything I do with my character, just as I'm not concerned about what you do with yours. I cooperate with my groups to down bosses, but every single person in a group who rolls on gear is saying "I want this for my own reasons". They don't do content to gear others, they do it to gear themselves, and their companions.

 

And yet you are demanding that I am by accepting your position that your companion who has not aided the group and your solo play which is irrelevant to the current grouping is my concern. You claim I must allow you to roll on an item that will offer no immediate benefit to our contract all based on the premise that it will make your efforts after you leave the group better. Frankly, I don't care. You could die a million times after the group and I could care less. You could give up and quit the game, and I would care less. Are you starting to see the issue here? That your time, your effort, your position outside of the group is absolutely pointless to anyone but you and there for is not a "group" concern, a group dynamic, and strictly your individual concern and issue? Your solo play means nothing to the group, why in any logical sense would it be relevant to the group? The answer? It isn't, but you think it is, so you illogically intrude it into group issues to get what you desire. Sorry, but you have no grounds to do so. Your solo play is irrelevant.

 

 

So your whole argument is meaningless.

 

You argue a fallacy. Your supporting premise is invalid. Your argument is invalid. o

 

Your position is a subjective demand and irrelevant.

[Jazhara]

Simple answer to the OP:

 

If you would be in a group of which I'd be leader and rolled 'need' on anything that is not fitting to your personal class, you get booted. Not even an explanation. No discussion.

 

There is one exception: if the group is running to actually farm gear for companions.

 

If it's not for your own class, you're welcome to 'greed' it, which is exactly what it is. Greed.

 

I rather have a hard time with an underpowered group than put up with people *so* greedy that they think they 'need' an item they don't.

 

Hope I won't meet you in-game.

[SOONERFREAK]

Yes because if they need it for their main character then they are using it 100% of the time to your 90% for the companion. You should always ask first.

[Lostpenguins]

How dare you impose your morals upon their sense of entitlement.

 

If someone asked you if you needed a ride or a lift or some help and you said yes would the average intelligent human being then be ok with your sense of entitlement to pass on said offer to your significant other (who helps you make it through life) because you physically can do so? When they find out YOU didn't need it but they did but you really need it because they are "a part of your life?

 

 

 

I specifically called you a ninja looter because you said it's okay to loot an item you have no intention of using to vendor it to get gear.

 

Wow... really... you're going to say that isn't ninja looting... okay bro.

 

Try this: http://www.wowwiki.com/Loot_ninja

 

Right there it says:

"The term seems to have a few different meanings depending on whom you ask, including:

 

* A player who, when in a group, rolls "Need" on everything regardless of if he or she can use it. "

 

One, you cannot use an item, your companion can. That's not you.

 

Even if you want to see your companion is you... the fact that you said it's okay to need an item to vendor it shows that you're rolling need on something you cannot use... that's a ninja looter.

 

Congrats, you just proved my point.

 

I like how you comment on a specific section, then you left the exact part that was I was expressing to that person. I called that person a ninja looter, as defined by what popular MMO site that forms idea from general consensus (wowwiki).

 

In the terms of what is defined as a ninja-looter it states (and I shall repeat):

"* A player who, when in a group, rolls "Need" on everything regardless of if he or she can use it. "

 

The exact situation we were defining is that someone rolls need on something they cannot use, but wants it for vendor trash to obtain credits to buy gear they need. The person responding to me said that is absolutely fine. I think pointed out how that is the very definition of a ninja-looter.

 

You can get all uppity with your idealisms of morality, labeling, and complete freedom to choose whatever you want, but that's not how society works. Society has to play by a certain amount of rules, both legal and social to function properly.

 

And you're comparing your significant other to a scripted automoton that follows you... congrats. My example of rolling Need to give it to a guildie would better fit your terrible analogy.

 

You'd be better saying that if everyone on a team was rewarded with a piece of pizza, you have a right to take one home (and possibly take my only piece away) to your sig fig because they helped you practice outside of the game. Sorry, but no. I helped you win that game far more than your practice partner did because I was actually in the game.

 

Get your hands off my slice of pizza.

 

Teams don't hand out championship rings to players wives/husbands just because that sig fig has been such an important part of their life outside the specific game...

Edited January 6, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[GunFuPanda]

If you take gear for your companion that could be used by an active party member on their character, you're a jerk. How is such a simple social concept beyond so many people?

[Galbatorrix]

No entitlement means ONLY you are allowed a shot because you "need" it more than everyone else. Letting everyone have a chance is the opposite of entitlement. It says that I am not the only person in this group and everyone should have equal chance for loot. Its none of my business what they do with it.

 

 

I hope I NEVER find myself in a group with any of your toons. You're ridiculous.

 

 

If your character can USE the item, roll need. If not, roll greed. If you want it for a companion, wait until the person/people in the group that can use the item roll. If the "need", pass and move on. If the greed, you are free to need yourself.

 

 

Trust me, you will be black listed FAST if you go around stealing other people's upgrade because "I can sell it or use it on a companion". I personally would never group with you again.

[zerosaint]

Holy God I can't believe that this is even an issue.

 

1) If it is for your character and you need it, 'need'.

2) If it is for your companion or money 'greed'

 

Good lord it isn't hard.

[EternalFinality]

I completely agree with your first paragraph and completely disagree with your second. There is no code of conduct that says you cannot roll need for companions. This entire thread is proof enough that there is no social contract implying that, either (and that it is not necessarily even intuitive). You believe that; others don't. You are not right and they are not wrong.

 

There's nothing preventing me from punching someone on the street in the face, but despite me not asking them beforehand if it's ok (they might say it is!) it's a bad thing in general to do, because society has figured out that getting punched randomly in the face is undesirable behavior. People in MMOs have decided that needing everything is generally undesirable behavior. People in TOR have decided that needing for companions is generally undesirable behavior. Not everyone has learned this yet, apparently, but eventually they will learn or remain outliers, like ninja looters in other MMOs that think that they should always have a chance at all drops and suffer the social consequences of their beliefs.

 

No, you are just trying to enforce a social construct on them that you invented and attempting to shame others into following what you believe to be correct. It is impossible for you to prove that there is a right way and a wrong way to roll on loot. The only thing that can be proven is that you can either roll need or greed.

 

Flawed.

 

Example: "There's no right or wrong way to make money in life"

 

Except there is - there are numerous wrong ways to go about it. You see, there's a right or wrong way to do nearly anything, and while that depends on the opinions of the people who make up the group deciding such a thing, it does get decided, and those who violate it are judged.

 

Yes, it's a social construct - but it is established whether you like it or not. Defy it at your own risk. You will be judged by the other people making up this MMO society. Cry about "It's just a social construct!" all you want, but don't say you were not warned.

 

Welcome to life. Peer pressure is not always a bad thing.

 

It's equally interesting that somehow I am now personally involved in this: a "side" was assigned to me, even though I've stated no preference (and repeatedly have said "check with the group before rolling"), and now social pressure is attempted to be applied to me to correct my opinion (that I don't have). (Unless you meant "you" as in "someone" - in which case, nevermind.)

 

Oh please, by pretending to play the middle ground you couldn't be more transparent. Of course you have an opinion on the matter, you're just obviously afraid to give it.

 

It's not always or even often the majority that determines the rules, however.

 

(In fact, it's really rarely the case...)

 

On the internet - it usually is.

Edited January 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Lostpenguins]

There's nothing preventing me from punching someone on the street in the face, but despite me not asking them beforehand if it's ok (they might say it is!) it's a bad thing in general to do, because society has figured out that getting punched randomly in the face is undesirable behavior.

 

While you and I are on the same side of the argument, I just have to point out your analogy is flawed. There is a law saying you cannot punch people in the face. That is the game equivalent of getting banned for swearing and being reported.

 

Rolling need for your companion will not get you banned in-game. Hence, this goes to the discussion that it is a social rule/construct... not a law.

[PunisherAS]

I feel that you should only need for yourself.

There are other opportunities to get gear for your companion.

 

GM, Crafting, Quests, and etc for getting companion gear.

Its not hard.

[GellonSW]

Holy God I can't believe that this is even an issue.

 

1) If it is for your character and you need it, 'need'.

2) If it is for your companion or money 'greed'

 

Good lord it isn't hard.

 

 

Well according to some players the companion is your character. Regardless if he was in the player's pocket the entire time in the heroic.

[EternalFinality]

While you and I are on the same side of the argument, I just have to point out your analogy is flawed. There is a law saying you cannot punch people in the face. That is the game equivalent of getting banned for swearing and being reported.

 

Rolling need for your companion will not get you banned in-game. Hence, this goes to the discussion that it is a social rule/construct... not a law.

 

Laws are social constructs. I thought that much was obvious.

 

A law cannot prevent my action - but it can dole out consequences for it. Just like the consequences someone will receive when they do this in a group.

Edited January 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Lostpenguins]

Laws are social constructs. I thought that much was obvious.

 

A law cannot prevent my action - but it can dole out consequences for it. Just like the consequences someone will receive when they do this in a group.

 

I'd disagree. See, in my example, it has been decided on, and written into the law, that punching someone in the face is a punishable offense. That is the equivalent of getting banned. You break a law (use profanity in the game), get caught (someone reports you), you get banned. You cannot argue out of it.

 

If you were to report that someone took an item in a FP for their companion BW would respond with, "um, sorry?". You may tell others and those others may agree... and those others may ostracize that person from grouping with them, but that's about it. It's a lot of "may's". It's not black and white like breaking the ToS (or the law).

 

Hence, your analogy was flawed.

[ZeRegent]

Foolishly, I tried to start my own thread as I just wanted to ask a question in regards to some of the comments and attitude people had in regards to need and loot. Back then, the thread was 24 pages now it's double that within 10hrs and my post was buried. I know, QQ more. However, my question remains so I thought I would copy and paste it here.

 

In regards to: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=136132 (ie, this thread so don't click on it)

 

This post is to the posters: Leggomy, utio, Eldren, SingleCoilPickup, Belbullab, Qonn, mattdell, StealthLightning; Revanaught and Easih.

 

(If I have misspelled your forum username or picked out your name incorrectly, I apologise - I did try to be thorough.)

 

All of you have given your viewpoint that it's perfectly fine to roll need on items that your companion could use over another player that was in a group with you.

 

Some of you have even written that it's perfectly fine to hit Need because:

 

You might need money for example the item can bring you. - Leggomy

 

Not my business what you use it for, you got it fair and square. - utio

 

It's really simple to boil it down to this: if you assisted in downing a boss, you have a right to stake a claim to any gear the boss drops. - Eldren

 

I 110% agree with Eldren. If I participated in the group and pulled my weight, I have the right to roll Need for something regardless of what my reason is. - SingleCoilPickup

 

From the looks of this discussion, it seems to be in the situation of either a flashpoint or a heroic quest where you're with maybe 1 to 3 other people. My question, I pose to you and others who agree with the above sentiments...

 

What happens in an operation where you're with 7 or 15 (is it?) others?

 

Whatever your role is, the boss drops nothing for your character but drops an item for one of your companions (and that companion was not in that operation), do you roll Need? Yes, this is also assuming another player was in this fight and also needs the item as an upgrade.

 

I'm actually quite interested to hear your answers or anyone else's.

 

To mattdell, you spoke of new social conventions in SWTOR. What are these new social conventions or can you provide a link for us who were ignorant of this?

 

I spoke to someone who did a WoW raid through cross-servers lfg system where people were needing on bop loot they could just in case they needed it down the line to trade for another bop item that drops. So, if BW decided to place a timer on bop loot trades, I guess that need could be added to the list of player need, companion need, vendor/credit need, within2hrsintothefuture need... right?

Edited January 6, 2012 by ZeRegent

[RealAeiouy]

For me your companion is an extension of your character and directly impacts your pve ability in many situations. I have not done it, but I think it would be okay to need on items for your companion.

 

Situational awareness should always temper this behavior though.

[RealAeiouy]

Holy God I can't believe that this is even an issue.

 

1) If it is for your character and you need it, 'need'.

2) If it is for your companion or money 'greed'

 

Good lord it isn't hard.

 

I disagree just because for all intents and purposes your companion is a part of your character.

 

If you are soloing or duoing it has a massive impact on your ability to play the game. It is just an extension of your own abilities. It is not another player or guildmate, it is you and your control.

[EternalFinality]

I'd disagree. See, in my example, it has been decided on, and written into the law, that punching someone in the face is a punishable offense. That is the equivalent of getting banned. You break a law (use profanity in the game), get caught (someone reports you), you get banned. You cannot argue out of it.

 

If you were to report that someone took an item in a FP for their companion BW would respond with, "um, sorry?". You may tell others and those others may agree... and those others may ostracize that person from grouping with them, but that's about it. It's a lot of "may's". It's not black and white like breaking the ToS (or the law).

 

Hence, your analogy was flawed.

 

It's not - every person who breaks the law is not caught nor punished. In fact, some people might not care that you punch them in the face. They might even assemble periodically in some sort of illegal club that encourages the activity. Similarly, every group might not care that you need for companions, but you better believe it's the law of the land and you risk the consequences if caught.

 

Similarly, not every jury would convict everyone of every crime even if they did commit it, depending on the circumstances. If caught breaking the law, you get a trial - you CAN argue your way out of it.

Edited January 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Lostpenguins]

What happens in an operation where you're with 7 or 15 (is it?) others?

 

Whatever your role is, the boss drops nothing for your character but drops an item for one of your companions (and that companion was not in that operation), do you roll Need? Yes, this is also assuming another player was in this fight and also needs the item as an upgrade.

 

This question is sort of invalid. The discussion is about rolling need on FP gear while leveling up. So operations are sort of a moot point. Also, in operations, you cannot role on gear. It automatically determines a random winner based on their class and spec. Companions are not factored in so the situation you presented cannot happen.

[Edgarallanpwn]

If you arent 50 yet who gives a ****. That gear will be gone in two to three levels and replaced by the first green thats better. If you are 50 maybe you have a valid gripe. It's a game. Calm the **** down.

[csward]

Other people have the same chance to get the same loot. What is the problem other than you feel entitled to the loot above everyone else. Why is it a big deal to just let everyone roll on whatever they want? Unless you are greedy and selfish you shouldnt have any issues with it at all. Everyone has an equal chance what is more fair than that?

 

Sigh, it is so fair, it's unfair to all, like so many laws in this country. Thinking you can roll need on everything show a sense of entitlement because you're saying "I deserve every piece of gear". The word "need" in the need/greed system implies that the gear you are rolling for is a useable upgrade for the character your are currently playing. For all other scenarios, roll greed. It's so simple.

 

In fact, your thinking that everything should be purely fair all the time shows a sense of entitlement. There is usually a good reason why things aren't fair and if there is one (and sometimes not), there's a law for it. I'd call everyone getting the best loot for the character they are playing fair.

 

You're either a great troll or 10 years old.

[csward]

It's not - every person who breaks the law is not caught nor punished. In fact, some people might not care that you punch them in the face. They might even assemble periodically in some sort of illegal club that encourages the activity. Similarly, every group might not care that you need for companions, but you better believe it's the law of the land and you risk the consequences if caught.

 

Similarly, not every jury would convict everyone of every crime even if they did commit it, depending on the circumstances. If caught breaking the law, you get a trial - you CAN argue your way out of it.

 

That's a straw man argument and a bad argument at that, sorry. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a sound? Who cares, the tree still fell. The argument is about whether the tree fell or not, so to speak, not what happens afterwards.

 

Here's the bottom line: You set the culture of the community you live in and in SWTOR by your actions. Laws are deterrents and can never stop someone from doing something "wrong". A sense of right and wrong come from the community. When everyone in the group shuns the "ninja looter", they tend to give up the loot. Wanting to be accepted is human nature and we, as a community, determine what right and wrong is in the game.

 

If a ninja refuses to change their ways, I ask the group to need everything then trade what we need with eachother (in WoW). That player quickly learns that when everyone plays like he does, no one wins.

 

I've also seen players need something just to block a ninja and trade it to me afterwards. Those guys are awesome with their "force ninja sense".

[Leggomy]

Sigh, it is so fair, it's unfair to all, like so many laws in this country. Thinking you can roll need on everything show a sense of entitlement because you're saying "I deserve every piece of gear". The word "need" in the need/greed system implies that the gear you are rolling for is a useable upgrade for the character your are currently playing. For all other scenarios, roll greed. It's so simple.

 

In fact, your thinking that everything should be purely fair all the time shows a sense of entitlement. There is usually a good reason why things aren't fair and if there is one (and sometimes not), there's a law for it. I'd call everyone getting the best loot for the character they are playing fair.

 

You're either a great troll or 10 years old.

 

No you are saying you deserve the gear. I am saying everyone is here so everyone should have an equal chance. To me that is the fairest way to do things. If you want to do things differently then thats on you and your groups. I personally havent had any issues everyone I play with knows that we are lvl 30ish and this gear is basically meaningless vendor trash for the most part. So noone cares. Granted later at level cap I might start doing things differently but for now this seems to work fine.

 

Most people are adults and realize the gear isnt all that terribly important at lvl 30 #1 and #2 even if you do get an upgrade 2 or 3 levels you will be vendoring that armor/wep anyways. Not everyone takes the game as seriously as you. I just like to have fun and people arguing over who needs what etc is not fun to me. I have never had an issue the entire time I have been playing this game and the numerous groups Ive been in. In fact I was kind of shocked people are so crazy bout it on the forums because in the game its no big deal.

 

I want to say also this is only in groups I run and only after ive discussed this with the group and got everyone's ok. Everyone goes in knowing what the deal is. If I join someone else's group I ask what their rules are and follow them since they are leading the group and not me.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Leggomy

[Jedi_Wannabe]

It's interesting from a sociological perspective, though, to watch people attempt to enforce social constructs on others in a video game medium. Because they have no physical recourse, threats and bullying are used to attempt to get others to adhere to their socially contrived "norm."

 

It's interesting that you seem to think bad behavior should be acceptable when there is no punishment. It's okay to **** and murder as long as you're not going to be punished right? Threat of punishment is the only reason some people are able to live peacefully with others.

 

When someone logs on to the Internet they don't stop being the kind of person they are. If they're a dick on the internet, they're a dick in real life, they just hide it better when they're offline. If people don't want to be their friend on the internet, do their real life friends only tolerate their existence because they hide their true self from them due to the threat of physical punishment?

[Leggomy]

It's interesting that you seem to think bad behavior should be acceptable when there is no punishment. It's okay to **** and murder as long as you're not going to be punished right? Threat of punishment is the only reason some people are able to live peacefully with others.

 

When someone logs on to the Internet they don't stop being the kind of person they are. If they're a dick on the internet, they're a dick in real life, they just hide it better when they're offline. If people don't want to be their friend on the internet, do their real life friends only tolerate their existence because they hide their true self from them due to the threat of physical punishment?

 

Seriously we are comparing someone rolling on an item to murder now? Really?

[Nanfoodle]

I will rolls NEED almost every time and this is why!!!! There is no companion equipment and player equipment. Its all one set of equipment. The devs have designed this game so you cant play without them. I NEED my companion to be just as well dressed as my char or I am gimped. Dont buy it ask the level 40+ how well they are doing without a well dressed companion. Matter of fact depending on what you are doing you need 2-4 companions well dressed for different teaming dynamics. This game is going to be the heaviest gear dependent MMO in history. I will roll need for my companion when it comes to a pug and I wont feel sorry. When I am with guildies or friends I will defer to my guildies and friends needs.